Honoring american flags

[BLUEHAWK]

:r:
A possible thread toward healing, if it flies?
It is the tradition here in a nearby southern Missouri village to allow graduating seniors the painting of large murals on the street near school. So long as the images are within moral/legal boundaries no censorship is exercised. But last Spring, a group of girls and boys chose to present a confederate battle flag, the same scale as all the other murals. For weeks thereafter the expected tumult went back and forth in news and editorial pages. To their credit the kids, their parents and the school held fast throughout the storm. None of the comments offered had anything at all to do with the flag nor with the Civil War as it was. The kids and the flag were villified. But, Missouri was a border state before hostilities in 1860, and seceded only to have the legislature chased down to this end of our territory for the duration. A federal unionist replacement was imposed.
Not many years ago an otherwise arguably effective senator from Illinois stood before her colleagues in the chamber and demanded, to vociferous acclaim, withdrawal of a recognition customarily given to Daughters of the Confederacy on the grounds, mainly, that the Confederate flag was part of their emblem. She lost her next election.
The battle flag, as it is commonly understood,
is NOT the "stars and bars", though most think it is. Almost no history is taught, and is not allowed to be taught, which would be equivalent with teachings as to the evolution of our stars and stripes. Yet, under both banners our fallen died for freedom, are buried in our soil, and came from families who will always remember. Generally speaking, both sides acknowledged this true union at the time and during the conflict.
Last September 12th I joined in solidarity with other americans in defiantly flying the stars and stripes which had draped a family member's casket at his military funeral. However, as if to say, "We are ALL americans", I also proudly flew a mid-sized Confederate banner. They flew together.
Post-Reconstruction era associations with which the battle flag has been linked are probably, one surmises, a major cause of the emblem being scorned so vehemently. Yet, victors and vanquished live side by side still today in common purpose.
The thread then...What might be the best way, if any, to alter course so that our children are taught to honor BOTH flags as american?

[chilidog]

I have started a reply to this thread 3 times and have erased it every time. Why can't people just get along?

Chilidog

[Mike Bell]

Chili,
Took awhile for the snafus to depart the imac here...was thinking the very same thing when
I attempted this thread in the first place. Having just seen all of Ken Burns' CIVIL WAR series
again, it'd be pretty hard to have anything else to say on the topic.
However, it seemed worth a try.
Bluehawk

[QuangTri-FO]

Bluehawk,
Well written...well said !

I'm in Indiana, but one of my ancestors is buried under the bank in Salem (Dent County) ...when the town decided to move the little graveyard(graves) from what had become downtown... They moved the headstones....ha ha ha and not the bodies!
...so now there is a bank there.... on my Confederate ancestor
.....sad thing is that after the little battle...his farm was raided, and from that his young wife died, and a newborn baby(girl)
....only thier 3 year old son Douglas survived.
....Not just because f or this but for the general reasoning,
and way they conducted the war...The Yankees have NOTHING to brag on. ....and Todays government ...has a lot to hide...
....excuses...excuses... there is nothing to chang the fact that
the Southrens had every legal right to leave the union ...and the US Government no legal grounds to wage the war that they did.
Fact-is-fact ...and that is that the North commited a major crime that resulted in hundreds of thousands of death... Not just in and at the time of the socaller Civil War ...but thru many of the following years... , Well beyond the official "RECONSTRUCTION" years but ..but most pronounced in such as Pellagra rampant in the Southern States during the depression years. (just one small example of how the illegal
war and poverty that the North brought upon the South ...kept right on killing! ....Freed some ...and disposed of democracy and freedom ...giving in its place...Federalisim and an ilusion of some freedom.
I'm not much of a writter ...but I dammed sure read ...and its all in the records ....Not Southern records ...But records written by the Yankee government's own officials.
Carl ( QuangTri-FO )
FO ...Viet~Nam DMZ 02APR69 - 20OCT70
PS My son proudly serves ...Just came back from Pakistan with two fractured disks in his back....We have a better country than most ... But Northern Politically Correct Types ...should learn That they can NOt continue to slander our Southern Confederate ancestors and our kin folk...lie about history
...and condem them ...and us! for honoring our ancestors both
legal and moral right to leave the Union in peace ...when thier own waged a hidious, illegal war ..that was all of that ...and Illegal. ....Lets talk about Lincoln...?????
Though I served and my son does now serve
...I do not fly the US Flag...out of protest, and fly the 3rd Nat'l CS Flag

[Mike Bell]

QuangTri-FO,
Your comments are understood. Though I go pretty much with what Chili said, it sure wouldn't hurt our national unanimity to at least come up to the acceptance those who fought that war arrived at when it was over, rather than keep on fighting it, or making things worse. A certain flag will always fly in our hearts.
Bluehawk USAF, 1963-66, C-123 & C-47 flight crew member

[chilidog]

Every kid in Texas learns the six flags of Texas history in school. They are: France, Spain, Mexico, Texas, USA, CSA, then USA again. These six flags are flown in front of the Six-Flags amusement parks. Nobody fusses over these flags. The Mexican flag is everywhere I look in Texas. In windows, bumper stickers on cars....Nobody complains....I take it as showing your heritage. Recognizing your heritage doesn't mean that you agree or disagree with the political views of the times. I have an American flag at my front door and another at my back door. I hope nobody tags me with all of the prevailing political views that are flying around these days.
Lets all just get along.

Chilidog

Bluehawk, sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.

[Stick]

The closest town to the east of Fayetteville is Jonesboro. Some of you Civil War (is that politacally correct to say?) buffs may recall the Battle of Jonesboro where the Federals cut off the rail lines that supplied Atlanta. The rail line is still there and right beside the tracks is a Confederate States of America (CSA) military grave yard.
When we moved down here in '94 I visited that grave yard and over it proudly flew the flag that those troops fought and died for. At that time that flag flew legally but the politically correct insisted that that flag had no place in America and the flag was removed. Since 1994 the image of the CSA banner has been removed from the flag of the state of Georgia. Why? Because the politically correct threatened to remove their convention business from Atlanta and tourism business from the state if it wasn't removed. How dumb we are to be threatened and surrender our history to those who wish to delete it? Imagine if France told the US to remove its flag that proudly flies over the American cemetery on the beaches of Normandy. Would we surrender to the politacally correct of France? America was created through the spilling of blood of its soldiers and when the Father calls me home in my hand will be placed the symbol of his Son, the cross, and the box that they put me in will be drapped with the flag that I would have proudly died for.
The Stars and Bars flies proudly over the cemetery in Jonesboro again today. Surrender Hell? We've only begun to fight!

[bbeil]

I am a red neck from Texas! But first of all I am an American who swore allegence to U.S. Flag, saluted it, raised and lowered it, folded it up correctly, and served under it in Korea. I also watched idiots burn it and disgrace it in the late 60s and into the 70s in this country under the protection of the constitution of this great country.
I don't think anyone has the right to burn our flags or books because they think they have some greater right than any other American. If a Confederate flag needs to be disposed of, what about the rising sun flag of Japan? How about the feeling of guy's at the Alamo and the Mexican flag? How about the German flags, hell we fought them twice in two world wars.
My heritage is southern, by way of Ellis Island by great-great Grandparents from Germany. I only fly the American flag, I only pay homage to the American flag. However
, I defended every americans right to fly any thing they want to regardless of the popularity of the time's.
This is a free country for everyone, bitching and moaning don't make it more free. Getting rid of history is a violation of freedom for future generations I would think.

[JeffL]

LittleJohn said, "Imagine if France told the US to remove its flag that proudly flies over the American cemetery on the beaches of Normandy. Would we surrender to the politacally correct of France?"

I believe there is no question that our touchy, feel-good, politically correct government would immediately cave in and remove that flag. Only the senior generations in this country even understand what our flag flying over those graves means, and our young, inexperienced elected representatives don't really give a damn about us or our feelings, much less about our history and national honor. Younger generations don't know about it or understand it because they aren't taught about it in school.

Hell, Japan still teaches their kids that we were the aggressor in WWII.

Yep. We'd take down that flag if France told us to.

[Mike Bell]

Chili, sp4LittleJohn, bbeil and JeffL,
Yup, that pretty well sums it up...guess sometimes it just depends on where which flag is flying and when. Good for SIX FLAGS, whole bunches of ours buried at Normandy had both in their hearts too.
Bluehawk

[Tamaroa]

Lest there be a misunderstanding here, lets get a couple of things straight. the Confederate battleflag also known as the CBF was a blue cross of St. Andrew on a red field with thirteen stars. It was known as the battle flag for a reason. The Confederate first national was the Stars and Bars, i.e. a blue canton with three broad stripes, red, white and red. At rest the first national looked like the American flag. Hence much confusion reigned in battle in the early part of the war. Following the First national, was the Second National or stainless banner as it is sometimes called. The Stainless Banner's first official use was as the coffin drape for Stonewall Jackson. This flag was a solid white field with the canton being the CBF to honor the Confederate soldier. Then there was the Third National which was the Second National with a broad red vertical stripe on the fly end. This was adopted in 1865 because the Second National at rest looked like a flag of surrender.

Now the point of the descriptions just enumerated is twofold, one to point out that the Stars and Bars and the CBF are not the same flag which many people mistake them for. Secondly, the battleflag is just that, it was the soldier's flag of the Confederate Army. Generally speaking the Army of Northern Virginia's flag was square while the CBF for the Army of Tennessee was rectangular in shape. These flags did not represent the government. They represented the armies. If any of the PC crowd be they black, white or green have a problem with any flag, it should be the First National AKA Stars and Bars, not the CBF. The First National represented the Nation and its constitution which allowed slavery to exist. And before anyone yells at me for splitting hairs, I want to point out one more thing.

There are a lot of you on this board who served in Viet Nam with honor. You went because it was your duty. I am sure that not all of you wanted to go. I am equally sure that some of you were against the war period, BUT you went anyway. You fought under the U.S. banner because it was your duty. You may not have agreed with our government's policies but you went. Now tell me what the US flag meant to soldiers (no qualifiers) in Viet Nam. You can't do it can you? Because it means something different for everybody.

The same holds true for the Confederate soldier. Slapping a racist label on him sickens me. He fought like a hell cat for that flag, BUT what did it mean for him? Was he a proponent of slavery or was he simply protecting his home and family from an invader. Did he have a higher regard for states rights than federalism?

We are one country now, but the Confederate flag, LIKE the Flag of the Republic of Texas was a piece of our history. 250,000 Southern American soldiers died defending that flag therefore it deserves a place of honor with our other flags. It deserves nothing more and nothing less.


Bill

[Mike Bell]

:ad:
Thank you Tamaroa...thank you

[Mike Bell]

It would be fascinating to learn any historical details about exactly how/when and by whom the decision was made to choose a version of the Cross of St. Andrews (of all possible designs!) for Confederate applications. A brief search of ASK JEEVES showed that the St. Andrews cross flag (the "Saltire") is the national flag of Scotland since about the 12th century, and was combined with the national flag of Ireland (St. Patrick's cross) to form the national flag of England (the Union Jack). Hmmmmmm...

[JeffL]

Some of us got into a discussion about this at another site. (Hey, Bill! Were you involved in the discussion?) What is popularly known as the Confederate Battle Flag, or the Stars and Bars, is actually the Confederate Battle Jack, or the Confederate Naval Ensign. The Confederate Battle Flag is another banner altogether.

Most people who object to the Confederate Battle Flag don't even know the proper terminology for the symbol to which they object. (What else is new?)

http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/southflg.html

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/flags/fedflag.shtml

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

[Mike Bell]

JeffL
Thanks for those links, went to them right away, learned a lot.
Bluehawk

[Tamaroa]

Hi Jeff,

If you are talking about that OTHER site, yes, I tangled with a number of people about the Confederate Battleflag. we had more civil discussions about it on alan's site at one point, as well.


To All:
Please purchase a large portfolio paperback book by Devereaux D. Canon entitled, Flags of the Confederacy an Illustrated History.
I promise you that you will learn more about the Confederate flag and its origins than you would probably care to but it tells you in detail how the original flag design came about and how the battleflag made its appearance. Initially it was one of the proposals for the National Flag but with less stars and it was derided as looking like a pair of suspenders.

You also will learn about the origin of the state flags and a real interesting tidbit about the fact that three former Confederate states fly the same flags that they flew during the Civil War when those flags flew over slavery. Interestingly enough no one is castigating them for still flying those flags!!!

At any rate the book is full of interesting facts and should be read by anyone who intends to debate for or against the Confederate Battle Flag.

Bill

[bbeil]

History repeats it self at times. King Robert the Bruce of Scotland created the new order of Knights Templar in 1314 following the battle of Bannockburn. Their previous order had been destroyed in 1307, its properties and possessions confiscated,and their leaders killed. Some fled to Scotland and, joining the army of King Bruce, fought and helped defeat an invasion of Scotland by King Edward II of England. As a result of this bravery King Bruce created the Order of St. Andrew of Scotland of which they were received.
As we trace our historical journey from remote periods, we should remember there are four ways to look- backward, inward,upward, and forward.
Upward and forward is a great direction to look. As one cynic ask a country boy," What will you do when they tear down the churches?" The reply was immortality:" We still have the stars!"To press forward and upward,instructed and inspired by the past as did the men with " BRAVE HEARTS"who flew the battle flag with the Cross of St. Andrew in Scotland.

[Wazza]

Interesting reading. Not a student of U.S. history.

The Union Jack is a combiation of three flags and represents Great Britain & Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom not just England. It consists of the flags of:-

St.Andrew, Scotland - blue background with white diagonal cross;

St.George, England - white background with red right angle cross

and

St.???, Wales - white background with red diagonal cross

An excellent example of how the politically correct get their way is represented by the current Canadian Flag. The French quater had to get that Union Jack of the Canadian Flag. I wonder how many 'old' flags fly over Canadian War Graves?????

A star in a flag acknowledges that we are of the stars!

[Mike Bell]

:o:
NOW we're getting somewhere! Its all starting to make complete sense, and I hope many others are learning from this thread too. Thank you all!
Bluehawk

[BLUEHAWK]

It is now a year later... nothing has changed. Forums and threads on this topic persist.

Two days ago vociferous defenders of the right of our United States people to display the Ten Commandments in a public building held their rally in Montgomery, Alabama... behind every speaker flew the State flag, an obvious humbly limned tribute to those who gave their lives that this nation might be one.

[MORTARDUDE]

Bluehawk :

Thank you ever so much for putting this on the top. I guess I missed it. I had no idea the Confederate Battle Flag went back to the Scots. I am going to re-join the SCV and fight for my heritage. I am sick, tired, and disgusted with all this sanctimonious bullshit about my ancestors and what they stood for. If Black-Americans can embrace Malcom X, Louis Farrakan and all the other hate-filled, criminal black leaders who continue to spew racist crap, I sure as hell can honor mine. When something looks too Confederate (as in my other post ) and is condemned, the line has been crossed.

Forget, HELL !! :d:

DEO VINDICE :d:

De Oppresso Libre :d:

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry -

That be makin' two of us...anyhow.

[revwardoc]

I used to work for a small, British owned company in Fitchburg, MA. One of my duties was to raise the colors every morning and take them down at the end of the work day. On July 3rd one year I brought a "Betsey Ross" flag from home and raised it at work in place of the contemporary "Old Glory". The manager, an Englishman, told me to take it down as he deemed it inappropriate and insulted him, as an Englishmen, since it was the flag of the United States during the Revolution. I told him that no foreigner was going to tell me which American flag I could fly over MY country and, if he didn't like it, he could take whatever action he deemed necessary. He just muttered something unintelligible and walked away. It appears we beat the Brits again!:xx:

[BLUEHAWK]

Great story Dan!

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry & Dan -

There is another link back on Civil War forum titled "Bonnie Blue" which goes into even more detail about the "other" american flag... Chili, Tamaroa Bill, Zag and Jerry D brought out a lot of fascinating info there, ties in nicely.

[kmetz]

Hey there's a book on the history of the Confederate Flag. I read it a couple of years ago--quite interesting. I'll look it up at work and get back to you.

[BLUEHAWK]

k -

That should be interesting to learn about, thanks.

Mike

[Jerry D]

Thank you Bill ...thank you for your statements on 10-09-2002 they were well written and knowlegable :ae:

[Tamaroa]

dated 10/10/02 on this thread. It has the name of a book and the author of a good book about the history of all the Confederate Flags. :)

[BLUEHAWK]

Bill -

Last night I saw a report about a "palmetto flag" supposedly run up by So. Carolina during the unpleasantness... I know about the palmetto symbol being used as a kind of lapel pin and ladies brooch, but had never heard of an actual flag being designed with it.

Was there one?

[Tamaroa]

SC was known as the Palmetto State. a Palmetto tree was on several SC state flags. They also had Palmetto trees on Buckles (very valuable by the way) and buttons as well. Some muskets even had the Palmetto tree in brass on their stocks. Those are very pricey.

Here is a shot of the flag adopted in 1861:

[Tamaroa]

Consider this, the Stars and Bars AKA the First National IS the Flag that should rile everyone up. That is the flag that represented the Confederate nation which supported slavery in its constitution. The battleflag was merely a soldier's flag to be used on the battlefield as an aid To differentiating armies. I have argued this point on board after board. Most people don't care why the Rebel soldier fought under it. He did therefore he is for slavery. BUNK. Did every American who went to Viet Nam agree with our policy there? No, but they went anyway out of a sense of duty. What is the difference?

Ask yourself another question. What flag is supposed to fly in Confederate cemeteries? Why would you put the flag of the government you were fighting over the grave of one who died fighting it? Makes no sense right? A dead Confederate killed in action should have the battleflag flying over his grave.

You know what a conundrum is? It is the U.S. Flag. Once again consider this: The United States Flag flew over slavery for 80 years. The Confederate Flag flew over slavery for 4 years. Our founding fathers did not have the guts to face up to the slavery question, hence 630K men were killed. Why aren't Blacks demanding that the US flag be changed? Look at the genocide perpetrated by the same Army against the American Indian? The Stars and Stripes flew proudly at Washita Creek and Wounded Knee, hmmm, double Standard here folks?

Here's another goodie for you, there are three southern states, Texas, Virginia and South Carolina that have the same flag they flew in the Civil War. Since that state flag flew over a slave state, why isn't anyone demanding that those flags be changed?

The battle flag was not and never was an official Confederate States Flag. No Confederate State ever flew the flag as a State flag. It was a soldier's flag designed by Beauregard with the first three prototypes hand sewn by the three female Cary cousins. It was designed to be able to tell the difference between the two armies. Why? Because at rest the 1st National AKA the Stars and Bars resembled the American flag thus causing great confusion. The battle flags inclusion later on in the 2nd and 3rd Nationals was a way to honor the Confederate soldier.

Better yet, ban the battle flag of the Department of East Tennessee, or the Battle Flag of Hardee's Corps in the Army of Tennessee. Why not Polk's Corps Battleflag? They all stand for the same thing, the Confederate fighting man. But guess what, the uninformed masses out there have no idea what those flags look like. Look them all up in The Flags of the Confederacy, An Illustrated History by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr.

Fremont emancipated the slaves in Missouri on August 31, 1861. Lincoln rescinded the emancipation. Was this a war to free the slaves or not? When the slaves were emancipated by the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, please note that only slaves in the South were freed, where he had no authority. Slaves in the North were left untouched. Let me see, why could that be? Could it be because, Lincoln knew that any northern state whose slaves were freed might get a little p.o.ed and side with the south.

As mentioned elsewhere on this board look at Carole Mosely Braun and the defeat of the Daughters of the Confederacy to renew their copyright on their insignia. They wanted to go with the Stars and Bars as a compromise and Braun still stirred up the hornets nest. The DOC never got their copyright.

Let me make one thing clear before anyone jumps on my case. The CBF represents a piece of our history and should be displayed in that context. The flag should be in museums, over Confederate cemeteries, at re-enactments and private homes. It has no place on public property where it might offend someone whether the offense is real or imagined.

I am a supporter of the CBF, I realize that bigots on both sides of the skin color will never let it rest vis-avis a public issue. During the 60's and 70's, when I lived in Virginia, it was acceptable to fly the CBF on a state house with the US flag on top, center flag is the state flag and the lowermost flag was the CBF. That was due to legislation passed because of the Civil War Centennial. Once the celebration ended, all the CBF's should have come down but they lingered on in many a southern state years afterward.

With today's PC climate, it would not be a good idea to fly the flag over state property unless it was a cemetery. All you have to do is hold a statewide referendum. Do you or do you not support flying the CBF from state property? If yes, up it goes. If no, it stays in museums and private property.

Mississippi recently held a referendum regarding their state flag with the CBF as the canton. They voted to keep it. I would be interested in seeing the results of the election, i.e., was the percentage of population black and white for or against close to the percentages of votes cast to keep the flag. In other words if was 58/42 to keep the flag and the population was 60%white/40% Black (these are guesses) I think you would still have a divisive issue on your hands.

The fact remains that the Confederate soldier will be branded a racist for all of history because it is almost impossible to eradicate the stench that the recent white hate groups cloaked the CBF with. The Reb soldiers heroism, endurance in the face of impossible odds, loyalty to his state, all that means nothing because of the willingness of certain groups, black or white who will do anything to bury the flag and along with it the legacy of 1.5 million southerners who fought in the war.

A couple of other observations. Regardless of whether we use hindsight. Regardless of who mind we are looking at, regardless of the century, our opinions will always differ, even if you use exactly the same facts, you still have people putting their twist on it. The Stephan's Quote about slavery "Our new government is founded upon ... the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery - subordination to the superior race - is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." is one of those things that make me smile. It is used a lot to indicate the south's resolve about slavery and its stand for it. Why? Because it says exactly what people want to hear when they say the war was about slavery and nothing else. But consider this, the man was VP of the Confederacy for only a few months before he went home to Georgia and sulk the rest of the war. How much did he really believe that statement? How much credence should we supply to it being that he apparently couldn't do the job asked of him?

For every Yank that fought the war to preserve the Union, you can find one who fought for slavery. You can also find one who hates the black race. In other words, you can postulate all you want about one position over the other, yet each side seems to be able to present equal evidence that they are right and the other side is wrong.

It comes down to who won the war and the victor is always right. But, It really is a lot more complicated than that and thank God for boards like this and people like us who can still handle healthy debates.

Bill

[BLUEHAWK]

Bill -
You, sir, are a national treasure.

Amazing, that SC palmetto flag, never heard of it before, real pretty I must say. I knew about the Palmetto State & c. but not that they had their own CSA flag. Life is beautiful with you in it.

We go from a sense of duty, yes... and then we come home, and from that same sense of duty continue having to fight, in words.

Would that it not be so.

[Jerry D]

ATTACKING THE CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAG:
An Example of Northern White Hypocrisy

by Joseph E. Fallon

Those Northern whites who love "the Stars and Stripes" but attack, or condone the attack, upon the Confederate Battle Flag are engaged in an act of self-righteous hypocrisy that will come back to haunt them.

The Confederate Battle Flag is incorporated into the State Flags of both Georgia and Mississippi, and was the inspiration for the designs of the State Flags of Alabama, Arkansas, and Florida. In its own right, the Confederate Battle Flag officially flies in an honorary position over the South Carolina legislature below the U.S. and South Carolina flags.

Opponents of the Confederate Battle Flag allege it is a symbol of slavery, treason, and sedition. They, therefore, demand it be expunged from the State Flags and prohibited from being officially displayed.

Other writers have documented how the Southern soldiers who fought under the Confederate Battle Flag did not fight to protect slavery -- there were fewer than 350,000 slave owners in a population of more than 5 million whites -- but to defend their families, homes, and States from a rapacious, invading army.

However, for argument's sake, let us agree that any flag associated with slavery, treason, and sedition should be banned from being officially displayed by the federal and State governments of the United States. When can we expect the official banning of "the Stars and Stripes"?

A far more compelling case can be made against "the Stars and Stripes" as a symbol of slavery, treason, and sedition than against the Confederate Battle Flag.

Before examining slavery, the allegations of treason and sedition should first be addressed. Treason is defined as an overt act in violation of the allegiance one owes his sovereign or state such as levying war against it, or giving aid or comfort to its enemies. Sedition is defined as incitement to commit acts for the purpose of overthrowing one's government. The American Revolutionaries were guilty of both crimes.

There was no legal right under British law for a colony to secede from the British Empire. The actions of the American Revolutionaries -- from the Boston Tea Party, to publishing pamphlets calling for independence, to convening the Continental Congress, to taking up arms at Lexington and Concord -- were treasonous and seditious. Their flag, "the Stars and Stripes", therefore, was a symbol of treason and sedition. Patrick Henry was most candid when he allegedly declared in his 1765 speech against the Stamp Act: "Caesar had his Brutus -- Charles the First, his Cromwell -- and George the Third -- may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the most of fit."

But there is more. The revolutionaries in 1776 represented a minority of the population of the thirteen colonies -- perhaps as little as twenty percent. So much for the American Revolution being a "popular" movement.

In many cases, to insure colonial legislatures enacted the "proper" laws, the revolutionaries often expelled loyalist members. So much for the American Revolution being a "democratic" movement.

Often, the revolutionaries simply established their own rival local governments. This second tactic was styled "dual power" or "double sovereignty" by the Bolsheviks who successfully employed it during the Russian Revolution. So much for the American Revolution being a model for the emergence of "democratic" governments elsewhere.

The revolutionaries rejected the British peace proposals of 1778, which, in effect, would have conceded most of their demands. Instead, they pursued their war against the United Kingdom with all its faults the most democratic government in Europe. To win that war, the revolutionaries solicited the support of France and Spain -- two of the most powerful, anti-democratic regimes in Europe. So much for the American Revolution being a movement motivated by the principle of "liberty".

After the success of the American Revolution with the political independence of the United States officially recognized by London, "the Stars and Stripes" became the symbol for what is now termed "ethnic cleansing". An estimated one hundred thousand loyalists, colonists who had been faithful to the British government during the American Revolution, were forced to flee the new republic.

But "the Stars and Stripes" did not cease being a symbol of sedition even after the United States achieved its independence in 1783. Six years later, the first republic of the United States under the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" was overthrown by the Constitutional Convention. The legitimate government of the United States did not authorize a new constitution. Its instruction to the Constitutional Convention was explicit "for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation". Under Article 13 of the Articles of Confederation, no revision was legally permitted "unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterward confirmed by the Legislatures of every State."

Despite instructions and procedures, the Constitutional Convention, boycotted by Rhode Island, illegally drafted a new constitution, which unconstitutionally declared that ratification by only nine of the thirteen States was necessary for adoption. Many of the Founding Fathers of the first republic, including Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and George Washington, were among the delegates to the Constitutional Convention. They were making a habit of engaging in sedition.

Unlike the British Empire in 1776, the right of secession was recognized as a constitutional right in the United States after 1789. The charges of "treason and sedition" against the Confederate Battle Flag -- 1861 to 1865 -- are, therefore, false. The right of secession from the second republic established by the U.S. Constitution was explicitly asserted as a reserved right of the States by Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island in their respective ratifications of that document. The other States acknowledged secession as a constitutional right when they accepted without any qualifications the ratifications of Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island. The constitutional right of a State to secede from the Union was taught at the United States Military Academy at West Point. The books used were Views of the Constitution by William Rawle, an abolitionist, and a friend of Franklin and Washington, which expressly affirmed a State's right to secede and Commentaries on American Law by James Kent, which implicitly acknowledged the reserved rights of the States. Historically, the most zealous proponent of secession was Massachusetts. Massachusetts, and other New England States, threatened to secede from the United States in 1787, 1796, 1800, 1803, 1811, 1814, and 1845.

Under Abraham Lincoln, it was "the Stars and Stripes", not the Confederate Battle Flag, that became the symbol of sedition in 1861. Lincoln overthrew the second republic of the United States established by the U.S. Constitution when he launched his war against the South. As the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the "Prize Cases, December 1862: "[Congress] cannot declare war against a State or any number of States by virtue of any clause in the Constitution... [The President] has no power to initiate or declare war against a foreign nation or a domestic State?Several of these States have combined to form a new Confederacy, claiming to be acknowledged by the world as a Sovereign State ? Their right to do so is now being decided by wager of Battle."

"The Stars and Stripes" was the symbol of a regime that made arbitrary arrests, suspended habeas corpus, curtailed freedom of speech, press, and assembly. The number of political prisoners has been estimated as high as 38,000. The Legislature of Maryland was overthrown by Lincoln's military. The Chicago Times was among hundreds of Northern newspapers suppressed for expressing "incorrect" views. As late as May 18, 1864, Lincoln was ordering his military to "arrest and imprison?the editors, proprietors and publishers of the New York World and the New York Journal of Commerce."

Now to the issue of slavery. "The Stars and Stripes" symbolizes a country that was conceived and established as a slave republic. Boston's Faneuil Hall, "Cradle of American Independence", had been built by money from the slave trade. John Hancock of Massachusetts -- President of the Continental Congress that issued the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776 -- was, himself, involved in the slave trade.

When the Declaration of Independence was signed, the institution of slavery was legally sanctioned in all thirteen colonies. There were, in fact, twice as many slaves in New York than in Georgia.

One of the grievances cited in the Declaration of Independence for the thirteen colonies seceding from the British Empire was London's policy of freeing the slaves. Or as the revolutionaries euphemistically phrased it -- "excit[ing] domestic insurrection".

The defense of slavery opens and closes the American Revolution. Prior to the Declaration of Independence, revolutionaries overthrew the Royal Governor of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, because of his proclamation of November 7, 1775 freeing any slave who would fight to defend the government of King George III.

And in 1783 when the British army withdrew from an independent United States, at least 18,000 slaves freed by the Crown joined the British exodus. South Carolina lost as much as one-third of its black population.

During the war, itself, the revolutionaries allied themselves with two of the largest slave empires -- France and Spain. In the latter case, "the Stars and Stripes" allied itself with the Inquisition.

Under the U.S. Constitution, adopted in 1789, slavery constituted the basis for taxation and representation in the second republic. This new Constitution not only legally recognized and protected the institution of slavery, but that of the slave trade as well. The former was the South's peculiar institution; the latter was the North's peculiar institution.

The U.S. Constitution recognized slavery in perpetuity unless the Constitution, itself, was amended, while the existence of the slave trade was guaranteed for, at least, twenty years. Northern States held a monopoly on the lucrative slave trade. Therefore, when the slave trade to the United States was outlawed in 1808, the Northern slave ships, flying "the Stars and Stripes", simply smuggled the slaves into the country. As late as December 1858, a New York City slave ship smuggled several hundred slaves into Georgia. Under the protection of "the Stars and Stripes", Northern slave ships sold slaves to Cuba and Brazil.

But, it will be argued by Northern whites that the United States, or at least the Northern States, evolved. They became "free" States outlawing slavery, and, thereby, converting "the Stars and Stripes" into a Northern symbol of opposition to slavery and affirmation that "all men are created equal". Really?

What were the conditions of blacks in the Northern States of the United States? Alexis de Tocqueville wrote: "[T]he prejudice of the race appears stronger in the States that have abolished slaves than in the States where slavery still exists. White carpenters, white bricklayers, and white painters will not work side by side with the blacks in the North but do it in almost every Southern State?"

A number of Northern States, led by New Jersey, enacted laws forbidding free blacks from residing in their "free" States. Massachusetts passed a law to flog blacks that entered that State and remained there longer than two months. In 1853, the Constitution of Indiana declared that "no negro or mulatto shall come into or settle in the state." That same year, Illinois, "Land of Lincoln", passed a law "to prevent the immigration of free negroes into this state". In 1862, while the Civil War was raging, the citizens of Illinois amended their State constitution declaring: "No negro or mulatto shall immigrate or settle in this state." In 1857, the Constitution of Oregon stated: "No free negro or mulatto, not residing in this state at the time of adoption [of this constitution]? shall come, reside, or be within this state."

Northern "free" States had already enacted laws disenfranchising their existing free black populations. New Jersey initiated this policy in 1808, followed by Connecticut in 1814, Rhode Island in 1822 and Pennsylvania 1838. By 1860, only five of twenty-four Northern "free" States allowed free blacks to vote. Immediately after the Civil War, laws to enfranchise blacks were rejected by eight of those Northern States.

Then there was the lucrative Northern business of kidnapping free blacks living in Northern "free" States and selling them into slavery. New York was a major center of this activity.

Between July 13-16, 1863, shortly after the Battle of Gettysburg, New York City was the scene of one of the worst race riots in United States history, the infamous "draft riots", in which an estimated one thousand blacks, possible more, were murdered.

Northern whites will protest what about the Civil War? "The Stars and Stripes" was the flag of freedom. The war was a war to end slavery and establish racial equality throughout the United States. Really?

In his First Inaugural Address, on March 4, 1861, Lincoln reiterated his position: "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

On September 11, 1861, Lincoln countermanded General Fremont's order freeing the slaves in Missouri. Eight months later, on May 19, 1862, he countermanded General Hunter's order freeing the slaves in Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina.

On August 14, 1862, Lincoln spoke to a delegation of blacks at the White House on his proposal that blacks should leave the United States and colonize some other land. His reason: "But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race? It is better for us both [black and white], therefore, to be separated? I suppose one of the principal difficulties in the way of colonization is that the free colored man cannot see that his comfort would be advanced by it? This is (I speak in no unkind sense) an extremely selfish view of the case? If intelligent colored men, such as are before me, would move in this matter, much might be accomplished?The place I am thinking about for a colony is in Central America".

A week later, in a letter to Horace Greeley dated August 22, 1862, Lincoln wrote: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."

In his Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862, Lincoln urged Congress to adopt constitutional amendments to postpone final emancipation until January 1, 1900 and to ship "free colored persons, with their own consent" out of the country.

On February 3, 1865, at the Hampton Roads Conference, Lincoln and Secretary of State, William Seward, met official representatives of the Confederate Government to discuss terms for ending the war. Lincoln supported Seward's proposal that the Southern States quickly rejoin the Union so that the 13th Amendment -- abolishing slavery -- then pending before Congress could be voted down.

Northern whites will claim "the Stars and Stripes", nevertheless, became a symbol of liberty when Lincoln issued his own "Emancipation Proclamation" freeing the slaves. His Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave. It applied only to those areas of the Confederacy still in rebel hands. As Lincoln's own Secretary of State, William Seward, declared, with disgust, "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them, and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." The Emancipation Proclamation stated: "all persons held as slaves within any State, or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforth, and forever free". Under its terms, slavery remained legally intact in the slave States that remained "loyal" to the Union -- Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri -- and in those portions of the Confederacy under Union occupation. When West Virginia, through the intervention of an invading Union Army, seceded from Virginia and was unconstitutionally admitted into the United States on June 20, 1863, six months after the final Emancipation Proclamation was issued, it entered as a -- slave State.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a propaganda devise. As Lincoln explained to a delegation of clergy on September 13, 1862, nine days before his preliminary proclamation was issued: "I view this matter as a practical war measure, to be decided on according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion." Lincoln countermanded the earlier emancipation proclamations issued by his Generals Fremont and Hunter because he believed their decrees would increase Northern opposition to his war. But with the demise of the Confederacy nowhere in sight, Lincoln then decided to employ "emancipation" as a military necessity.

His Emancipation Proclamation sought two objectives. Internationally, it was to dissuade the United Kingdom and France from recognizing the independence of the Confederate States of America. As Lincoln explained, the proclamation: "would help us in Europe, and convince them that we are incited by something more than ambition." "Domestically", it was to incite slaves to murder defenseless white women and children on the farms and in the cities of the Confederacy, thereby, resulting in the disintegration of the Confederate Armies as individual soldiers abandon the field to return home to save the lives of their families. The Emancipation Proclamation was a call not for liberty, but for a race war and genocide. Lincoln admitted this to those visiting clerics in September 1862. He proclaimed: "I have a right to take any measure which may best subdue the enemy; nor do I urge objections of a moral nature, in view of possible consequences of insurrection and massacre at the South."

In issuing his Emancipation Proclamation as an incitement for slaves to massacre Southern white women and children, Lincoln was continuing his policy of deliberately violating international rules of war -- rules that had evolved over the course of centuries to limit the scope of war's death and destruction. "The Stars and Stripes", under Lincoln, became a symbol of total war against the innocent. Food and medicine were declared to be contraband. Women and children, the sick and the elderly were considered legitimate targets of war.

Lincoln's policy was enunciated in "Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field" (General Orders, No. 100, 1863). Among the acts declared to be lawful were subjecting Southern non-combatants to the "hardships of war", starving Southern non-combatants, and bombarding places housing Southern women and children.

In a letter dated January 31, 1864, General W.T. Sherman elaborated on how all Southerners may be treated under these instructions. He wrote: "the Government of the United States has?any and all rights which they may choose to enforce war, to take their lives, their homes, their lands, their every thing?to the petulant and persistent secessionist, why death is mercy, and the quicker he or she is disposed of, the better". Six months later, June 21, 1864, Sherman added Southern white children to that "class of people?who must be killed or banished".

With this official license to kill and destroy, wanton destruction -- including raping, pillaging, plundering, and arson on unprecedented scales -- was unleashed upon Georgia and the Carolinas by General Sherman, upon the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia by General Sheridan and upon the western counties of Missouri by General Ewing.

Under Lincoln, "the Stars and Stripes" became a symbol of political assassination as well. The instructions found on the body of Colonel Dahlgren after he and many of his men were killed in their failed raid on Richmond, March 3, 1864, revealed his mission was to assassinate President Jefferson Davis and the entire Confederate cabinet.

But, back to the issue of slavery. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation declared all the slaves in areas of the Confederacy still in rebel hands "forever free". But what happened to those "freed" slaves when they finally came under the protection of "the Stars and Stripes"? They were told by the North they could now "choose" their employers and that they must be "paid" for their labor. But in reality, "freed" slaves were often re-enslaved by the North under the fiction of a one-year work contract. Many slaves were forced to work on plantations operated by Northerners, or Southerners who had taken the oath of allegiance to the U.S. government. They could suffer a loss of pay or rations for acts of laziness, disobedience or insolence. They were often required to obtain a pass if they wished to leave the plantation. And they were subject to provost marshals who were employed to insure that the "freed" slaves displayed "faithful service, respectful deportment, correct discipline and perfect subordination". Other slaves "freed" by Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation found themselves forced to build installations and fortifications for the Union Army.

What of the approximately 180,000 blacks, mostly Southern slaves, who rushed to join the Union army, Northern whites will ask? Did they not fight for freedom under "the Stars and Stripes"? Did they?

In May 1862, Secretary of the Treasury, Salmon Chase received this report: "The negroes were sad?Sometimes whole plantations, learning what was going on, ran off to the woods for refugee?This mode of [enlistment by] violent seizure is repugnant."

In a communiqu? to General Ulysses S. Grant, General John A. Logan noted: "A major of colored troops is here with his party capturing negroes, with or without their consent?.They are being conscripted."

From Tennessee, General Rousseau to General Thomas: "Officers in command of colored troops are in constant habit of pressing all able-bodied slaves into the military service of the U.S."

From Virginia, 1864, General Innis N. Palmer to General Butler: "The negroes will not go voluntarily, so I am obliged to force them?The matter of collecting the colored men for laborers has been one of some difficulty?They must be forced to go,?this may be considered a harsh measure, but?we must not stop at trifles."

From South Carolina, August 16, 1864, General Hunter, (the same officer who had earlier issued an emancipation order that was countermanded by Lincoln) issued an order from the headquarters of the Department of the South at Hilton Head declaring: "All able-bodied colored men between the ages of eighteen and fifty within the lines of the Department of the South, who have had an opportunity to enlist voluntarily and refused to do so, shall be drafted into the military services of the United States, to serve as non-commissioned officers and soldiers in the various regiments and batteries now being organized in the Department."

From the Memoir of General W.T. Sherman; "When we reached Savannah we were beset by ravenous State Agents from Hilton Head, South Carolina, who enticed and carried away our servants and the corps of pioneers [i.e. laborers]?On one occasion my own aide-de-camp?found at least a hundred poor negroes shut up in a house and pen, waiting for night, to be conveyed stealthily to Hilton Head. They appealed to him for protection alleging that they had been told they must be soldiers...I knew that the State Agents were more influenced by the profit they derived from the large bounties than by any love of country or of the colored race."

As late as February 7, 1865, Lincoln wrote to Lieutenant-Colonel Glenn operating in Kentucky, that "Complaint is made to me that you are forcing negroes into the military service, and even torturing them".

This is the history of "the Stars and Stripes" those Northern whites who attack, or condone the attack, upon the Confederate Battle Flag choose to ignore.

If as these Northern whites demand the Confederate Battle Flag should be banned on the ground it is a symbol of a country which recognized slavery as a legal institution, what of "the Stars and Stripes"? The Confederate States of America existed for just four years. By the logic of their argument, "the Stars and Stripes" must be banned because it, too, is a symbol of a country which also recognized slavery as a legal institution. And not for four years, but for eighty-five years prior to the birth of the Southern Confederacy -- and for more than half a year after that Confederacy had been crushed.

Northern whites should not dismiss the idea that "the Stars and Stripes" could be banned. In October 1996, in an article for The Atlantic Monthly, Conor Cruise O'Brien, called for the removal of Thomas Jefferson from the pantheon of American heroes because the author of the Declaration of Independence was a "racist". That same month, in the Washington Times, Richard Grenier, after comparing Jefferson to Nazi Gestapo chief, Heinrich Himmler, demanded that the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC be demolished "stone by stone". In November 1997, the black-controlled New Orleans school board had George Washington's name removed from a local elementary school because Washington was a slave owner.

Well, "the Stars and Stripes" was the flag of Washington and Jefferson. If official recognition can be withdrawn from two of the Founding Fathers, why not withdraw it from their flag as well? Such a demand, in fact, has already been made. "The Stars and Stripes" was temporally removed from two schoolrooms -- one in California, the other in Michigan -- in response to the demand of Third World militants who claimed that the flag was a symbol of "racism" and "oppression".

As Third World immigration undemocratically transforms the United States from a European-American majority nation into a European-American minority nation, the demand to ban "the Stars and Stripes" -- because it is a symbol of "racism", "oppression", "white supremacy", "Eurocentrism", "exclusion", "intolerance", etc. -- will grow.

If, or when, the "Stars and Stripes" is banned, Northern whites will have no one to blame but themselves. For in their unjustified attack upon the Confederate Battle Flag, they have provided the very arguments that most effectively undermine the legitimacy of "the Stars and Stripes". :d:

[BLUEHAWK]

And, the true test of an idea is in its resilience, endurance and honor.

[Tamaroa]

regarding some of these threads we have been discussing regarding Southern Nationalism, hatred of the Confederate Flag, Reparations. Question still are asked why is the south fighting the Civil War, and so on. So I thought I?d sit and relax for a few minutes putting together a series of facts that may shed some light on to many of the previously discussed items not to mention serve as an explanation as to why we are still so fascinated by the war today.

1) Sam Houston served as a President of a Republic that seceded from Mexico, but he would not condone seceding from the United States.
2) President Zachary Taylor?s daughter was Jefferson Davis? first wife. She died from Cholera or Malaria, I forgot which.
3) Former U.S. President John Tyler was elected to the Confederate Senate as a Senator representing the Confederate State of Virginia.
4) Former U.S. Vice President John Breckenridge and 1860 U.S. Presidential candidate served the Confederacy as a Major General.
5) Mary Todd Lincoln had three relatives that served in the Confederate Army.
6) Wesley Culp, a Private in the Confederate Army was KIA on Culp?s Hill in Gettysburg on his uncle?s farm.
7) Patrick Henry?s Grandson fought at Gettysburg in the Confederate Army.
8) Before the war started, Armistead and Hancock, with Garnett went to a farewell bash where Hancock?s wife sang for all of them. 2 years later, Hancock?s troops fired on and killed Armistead and Garnett.
9) On April 6, 1865, the Confederate army, famished, shoeless and many without guns charged Union lines. There was hand-to-hand combat that was so ferocious; soldiers were biting one another?s throats and ears.
10) Three days later at Appomattox, Grant and Lee shook hands and everybody went home. To me that speaks volumes. The nation underwent a violent Civil war for 4 years over a million casualties killed, wounded and missing and it all ended with a handshake. What other nation in this world could do that?
11) During the Spanish American War three former Confederate cavalry Generals fought for the US flag, Tom Rosser, Joe Wheeler and Fitzhugh Lee.

Now these samples are just the top of the iceberg. These kinds of episodes happened throughout the war. But they speak about the country the same way that we can speak about families. They were all close, closer than they would care to admit at times. Like the old saying goes regarding families, ?there is a fine line between love and hate.? In the end this war made us a stronger country and I deeply resent the numbskull politically correct jerks that cannot use these same facts here and use them to unite the country instead of continually trying to tear it apart.

Bill

[BLUEHAWK]

Bill -
Thank you.

Maybe somebody from the NAACP, Black Muslims, Congressional Black Caucus, SNCC, SCLC and ACLU will be reading these pages too... here as we commemorate Dr. King's grand oratory at the feet of old Abe.

[MORTARDUDE]

Jerry D :

Thank you posting that excellent article. It certainly puts it all in perspective...the following quote is especially pertinent :

" In a letter dated January 31, 1864, General W.T. Sherman elaborated on how all Southerners may be treated under these instructions. He wrote: "the Government of the United States has?any and all rights which they may choose to enforce war, to take their lives, their homes, their lands, their every thing?to the petulant and persistent secessionist, why death is mercy, and the quicker he or she is disposed of, the better". Six months later, June 21, 1864, Sherman added Southern white children to that "class of people?who must be killed or banished".

With this official license to kill and destroy, wanton destruction -- including raping, pillaging, plundering, and arson on unprecedented scales -- was unleashed upon Georgia and the Carolinas by General Sherman, upon the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia by General Sheridan and upon the western counties of Missouri by General Ewing. "


As for these groups.. ( NAACP, Black Muslims, Congressional Black Caucus, SNCC, SCLC , ACLU )..all I have heard from them on this 40th anniversary of Dr. King's speech, is how bad things still are. Well, I have news for you. You have come one hell of a long way in 40 years. Don't you think it is time to quit whining, complaining, bitching, and blaming everybody else for your "perceived problems", accept responsibilty, and make everyone's lives better ??

DEO VINDICE

Larry

[Jerry D]

agreed Compatriot Larry, after 140 years after the WBTS and 40 years after Kings speech in Washington the Black population is way better off then their cousins in Liberia, Nigeria,Rawanda, Uganda, and a few other African Nations . The other day in the paper they had listed how long it took to earn a dollar to buy a Big Mac in Various countries around the world and it too over 100 hours in Nigeria for a man to earn a dollar to buy a Big Mac, here in the US it only takes minutes for most workers to earn a dollar to buy a Big Mac. So, just going by that survey we in the US White or Black are way better off economically and every other way I can Think of then anyone living in the Continent of Africa except for maybe parts of Egypt , South Africa, and Morroco.

[BLUEHAWK]

My lady Carol and I went over to the SCOTTISH GAMES here in town a couple weeks ago... was very surprised to see so many Bonnie Blue banners flying high and proud everywhere one looked, and not a few souvenir items featuring our other flags too. Felt right at home.

[Jerry D]

Why of course Mike :) the Scots invented the St. Andrews Cross Flag :)

[BLUEHAWK]

Yup, this was just the first time I had seen so many flying all at one time and place! Amazing... quite a nice banner.

[Jerry D]

One of My ancestors 7 generations back came from Scotland .Isaac Haire Brown (b.1806)and around 1820 he Married Mary Mooney in Warren County Tenn. where they had a few kids before moving to Missouri around 1848 to Rolla,Phelps Co. Missouri where they had some more kids all in all they had 12 children by 1852. :a:

[BLUEHAWK]

Nope, Ms. Mooney was givin' the camera THE LOOK there wasn't she...

Our heritage resembles one another's some... but the paternal kin came from County Down, Eire, after having crossed that channel from Scotland ages earlier... to the colonies in 1742 and headed up near Gettsyburg, while the maternals made a similar migration inland through Tennessee, Kentucky and to the Ozarks (MO & AR), where most of the maternal bunch still resides since about that same mid-1800s period. One branch got hooked up a few times with Cherokee, like a lot of what was common then, most recently in the early 20th century.

No wonder I was confused...not no more though!

[the humper]

Your post of 8-28. Item #4 on Breckenridge. Small world, served with his great grandson in K. Several of us, including him got roughed up a bit on a night patrol, which sent him back to recoup. He then returned to another Company and was KIA on 10-9-51.
SF
NC

[BLUEHAWK]

Here we go again!

Presidential "hopeful" Dean utters a sentence about wanting to bring Confederates into the fold, then gets attacked everywhere by the usual subjects using the usual words, then he hits the deck when the s--t hits the fan... other hopeless "hopefuls" pointing the fickle finger of infamy in his chest.

[Desdichado]

Well, I've read through the whole thread, and all the usual arguments are here.

Except one.

A flag means what popular opinion perceives it to mean. Not what the people who designed it were thinking of. Not what the people who carried it believed. Not even what common sense tells us it stands for.

Suppose the local government in Bavaria were flying the swastika because, so they argued, it was part of their heritage. Outrageous. Only Nazis associate the swastika with German unification; to the rest of us it is a symbol of hate and repression. There are no swastikas flying over WW2 German war dead.

Symbols of the Confederacy are never going to be accepted because they are always going to be associated, rightly or wrongly, with slavery. There's no getting around it. It did not survive beyond the war, and there is thus no other context in which to place it for the average person. Its adoption by white supremacists hasn't done it any favors either.

The arguments that the war was about Union and not slavery will inevitably fall on deaf ears. It doesn't even matter if the arguments are correct. All of the Confederate states were slave-holders and thus, since the Confederacy did not survive to stand for anything else, this is what people will associate it with.

A moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole
Does not seem likely to stir a man's soul;
But 'tis the deeds that were done 'neath that moth-eaten rag
When the pole was a staff - and the rag was a flag.

[BLUEHAWK]

Des -

The only thing I might add to the discussion is that, actually, those of us who hold that ideal and banner dear do not care if it is ever accepted or not.

Typically, it is not we who ever bring it back to the fore... it brings itself.

" 'tis the deeds that were done..."

[the humper]

Good post, but I have another understanding, It's not what is popular opinion, but what "I" take it to mean!!!!!
SF
NC

[BLUEHAWK]

Thing is, I just cannot see where the harm is being done for some of us to have it, maybe even to fly or show it all we want... kinda makes me wonder sometimes just how "secure" the other guys truly are in their certainty...

No biggie... it's been a lot of years, and it'll be a lot more...

[the humper]

The harm is, if you are of SOUND MIND, then you are not politicall correct!!!!!! And I think I know which you stand on!!!!!!!
SF
NC

[BLUEHAWK]

Ya got THAT right humper...

[Tamaroa]

Des,

The United States flag flew over slavery for 80 years. Presently, three former Confederate states still fly state flags that flew in their states during the Civil War. Why isn't anyone advocating their change?

Ignorance is bliss, i guess!
Bill

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Bill... as always...

[BLUEHAWK]

Bill

See how the Iraqis changed their flag from the Baathist to the hopeful... sooooooooooooo quick, eh?

Zooooooooomie out

[Desdichado]

Originally posted by Tamaroa Des,

The United States flag flew over slavery for 80 years.

Wasn't it four-score and seven? ;)

The flags of MOST countries in existence today flew over slavery, often for HUNDREDS of years, but for some reason everyone looks at Southerners as the epitome of the evil racist state.

Personally, I guess like other folk around the world, I'm NOT real proud of that part of my heritage, but it was there and, unlike them, I won't say it wasn't and I won't apologize for it.

In the part of Kentucky I'm from there were hardly any slaves. I guess I could ascribe some altruistic motives to that, but the fact is that the reason there were no slaves in the mines is because slaves were actually worth something; if poor white trash like me died in a cave-in, that was one less paltry wage to pay -- if a slave died, that was a lost investment. Slaves actually had value.

I honestly believe the North was both legally and morally wrong to wage the so-called civil war the way it did, and I truly believe Lincoln was one of the worst presidents this country has ever had, but I'm damn glad it turned out like it did. We can argue about states' rights and causes until the sky falls, but the fact remains that a great evil was undone, or at least ended.

And I guess that was what I was trying to say earlier. People (generally) look at the Southern Cross (a rather meaningless naval ensign) and see the bad, or they see the pride, and really in the end it's just a symbol, regardless of what it's creators intended it to be. It's a battle standard; it's not the stars and bars.

When I see the Southern Cross I immediately examine who's carrying it. If it's a re-enactment group or someone trying to really honor southern heritage, I can respect that. If it's some A-Hole in a white hood, I couldn't care less if he gets run over by a car on the way to the rally.

Kentucky might have gone the middle road during the great war, but I'm damn proud to live in her. We call her Dixie's darlin', and I proudly call myself a southerner.

I can't make slavery never happen. I can't take back what was. All I can do is be proud of the good things we were and be ashamed of the bad things -- and not be ashamed to be ashamed of the bad things. If that makes any sense.