Any of you guys collect Civil War weapons?

[colmurph]

I'm into Civil War guns and have around 30 different pistols, carbines and rifled muskets. Looking for some information on the loading of my latest acquisition, an 1819 Harpers Ferry Hall Breechloader that was converted to percussion prior to the war. Has .52 cal. Polygroove Rifling. I'm wondering if the bullet was patched or not, conical or round ball.

[Tamaroa]

Murph, just an edumacated guess but I'd go with round ball. I am familiar with .54 cal, .577 cal,.58 cal and .69 cal minies. Never heard of a .52 caliber minie. .52 cal. is a really odd size.

Bill

[colmurph]

Finally went with a .553 round ball which is a snug fit in the receiver and squeezes down to .52 in the rifling. Shoots great but there is some gas leakage (which they were notorious for) between the block and the barrel. As far as .52 being an odd-ball cal. there were a lot of carbines in this caliber during the civil war. There were .50 cal, .52, .54, .58, .69 long weapons in common usage and at the start of the war before there were enough colts to go around, the most often found pistol was the .52 cal. Johnson mod. 1836 converted from flint to percussion and the 1842 Aston which was originally percussion. Supplying the Army must have been a nightmare from the Ordinance Dept. standpoint, with all the different calibers and different sizes of percussion caps.

[Andy]

I'm not a collector, just holding on to things. My mother's grandfather was in the Army - Civil War. After the war he met a brother-in-law who had been in the navy. Old John Frank Hitchcock had a pair of colt .44's. His brother-in-law a man named Browne had a pair of .36 revolvers. Over a jug they decided to swap a pistol. Thus, I have one .44 and one .36 which I am supposed to pass on to a grandson. Also have the bullet makers and a bunch of the caps. However the last time either weapon was fired was the summer of 1961. Don't think they'll get fired again.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[exlrrp]

I have a Union officers cavalry sword, don't know the unit. I was given it by a client who has a mailorder antique weapon business for services rendered, I only had to hit him twice--lol. He has a gorgeous house in Marin I did the kitchen on.. He said it was worth $150.00(1988) he travels worldwide collecting.
its a saber, 48" overall, fairly utilitarian,not fancy, must have been for a tall man.
Makes you wonder how much blood was spilled on it.
I have letters from one of my ancestors who was in the 5th Ohio inf, fought in TN and GA. My dad ,doing some genealogy just traced us to a North Carolina cavalry sgt.

[colmurph]

Andy, if your colts have decent bores and any of the original finish left.........the .44 (Colt Army) is worth about $4,000.00 and the .36 (Colt Navy) is worth about the same. Look for a cartouche on the bottom of both sides of the grip on the .44 and on the left bottom grip on the .36. If they are present on both, it indicates government issue and is worth about a 50% premium. They're safe to shoot with black powder. Just make sure they are thoroughly cleaned with hot soapy water, rinsed and dried and oiled. Black powder residue contains sulphur which turns to sulphuric acid when it gets damp......very corrosive. If your caps are original and in an Ely's Tin (they probably wouldn't work anyway) don't use them. The tin if original is worth about $150.00
Original bullet molds are worth about $200.00 and $300.00 if marked Colt's Pat.

[colmurph]

exlrrp, your cavalry sword is probably worth around $350.00 now. More if the blade and scabbard are in good shape.

[Andy]

All I can find is "Address Sam Colt - New York City" and serial numbers on the .36, numbers in 4 places.
The .44 has stamped into it. "Colt Patent" and serial numbers.
On both weapons the serial numbers are just forward of the trigger guard and on the bottom heal of the gun. The .36 also has it's numbers on the cylinder. The .44 also has the letter "H" just behind the trigger guard. I'd expect that to be for Hartford, which is where Colt's company was located.

The dollar value is interesting but I'm under obligation to pass the weapons along within the family and tell the history of the weapons.

The Civil War pistols, Grandpa's Mouser from WWI, Dad's sword from Italy in WWII, and my SKS-56 are all part of family lore.

Stay healthy - thanks for the info,
Andy

[colmurph]

Both Colts should have safety pins protruding from between the nipples. Both should have the last 4 or 5 digets of the serial number in an oblong box on the cylinder. Both cylinders were originally roll engraved. The Army had a battle scene and the Navy had a Naval Battle scene. The H on the Navy is a sub-inspectors mark. Each major piece should have a C, H or some other letter. The cartouche on the wooden grips is for the overall armory inspector. The fact that the Navy has inspectors marks indicates that it was a Govt. issue weapon. The Army, on the other hand, may have been a civilian sale that was carried into battle. Many other pistols were adopted by civil war soldiers such as the Mod. 2 "Army" Smith & Wesson .32 rim fire which was never purchased by either Govt. but was carried by soldiers on both sides. Judging by the condition you describe, I would put the Army mod. at around $2000.00 but the Navy would have to be valued at around $5,000.00 as it is Martially marked. Go to a gun show and pick up a case for each. Cases are pretty expensive by themselves but when you put the components together you end up with a unit worth 3 times as much as the sum of the parts.

[Andy]

I live in god damn Massachusetts. We don't have gun shows, they are illegal. Can't anyone realize that ex-LURP lives in an almost sane world, I don't. Both weapons are in good condition. I cleaned them both again today, oiled them and wrapped them in 100% cotten, just like grandpa told me.
Murph, a friend of mine has a .57 cal. muskett that was used by Union Cav. any idea what one of them would be worth? I don't have the numbers but it is surely pre-civil war.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[colmurph]

Need to know if it is a Musket (smooth bore) Rifled Musket, or Mudketoon. What marks are on the lock plate? Sounds like it may be British Manufacture by the Calibre. Lots of Enfields (.577 cal) were used by both sides during the civil war. There were also some Austrian Lorenz Rifles in the same caliber. If I can Identify it I can give you an approximate value.

[colmurph]

The hall used a round ball which was .535 in diameter. Sometimes this was augmented by 3, .31 cal. buck shot in a paper wrapped "Buck & Ball" cartrige. I got some .535 swaged balls and plan on firing up the old smoke stick this weekend if the weather holds up.

[janecallanan]

I had a civil war discharge paper for one of my ancestors (who is also an ancestor of the Bushes') and have some pictures from the period of ancestors. I tell you what, those faces could be considered deadly weapons. I know, not what you wanted to hear about, but i never let an invitation stop me from jumping in.

[colmurph]

Here's a picture of my .44 colt and the cartouche on the bottom of the grips (on both sides)

[colmurph]

Cartouched grips are a "Sure" indication that the pistol was purchased from Colt by the U.S. Government and issued during the CIvil War.

[colmurph]

That was the cartouche on my 1858 Remington. Here's the left side of the Colt.

[Andy]

Neither of my pistols have anything stamped into the wood of the grips, or if there was it's been worn off.
Sorry for not getting back to you on the .57 Cal. I mentioned. I know it's a smooth bore, however David is in the process of getting a divorce and he's not allowed within 100 feet of his house. I doubt he'll ever see the weapon again. His wife is something of a Hillary.

Stay healthy,
Andy
PS: I know this isn't a weapon, but you do seem to know about such things. Uncle Chet picked something up while in Germany as a member of Patton's army. It's an SS ID tag. It has the eagle with the nazi emblam on one side and "Geheime Staatspolizei" (Secret State Police) on the other side. Even has the guys ID number clearly printed. Are those things worth anything?

[colmurph]

Are worth a bunch to folks who collect that sort of thing. Most of the folks I see buying that stuff at gun shows seem to be "Skin Heads" or KKK though. Most antique gun collectors wouldn't touch Nazi stuff with a 10 foot pole.

[colmurph]

The lack of a cartouche may mean that the weapon was a civilian sale. Military weapons will have different letters stamped in the metal of the cylinder, barrel, back strap, trigger guard and frame. They may be a "C" or "H", if you see any of those marks it's a Military gun with the grips worn to the point that the cartouche is no longer visible. If it doesn't have any sub-inspector marks on the metal, then it's a civilian sale.
If the Long Gun you are talking about is .57 caliber it IS RIFLED. The British Enfield in .577 cal. was used by BOTH SIDES during the Civil War and was rifled. The Springfield and various contract copies of it was .58 cal. and RIFLED. The ONLY smooth bores used in any quantity during the Civil War were the percussion conversions of the mod. 1816 Musket in .69 cal. and even some of those were given shallow rifling when they were converted by Frankford Arsenal using the Remington Lock Plate with the Maynard Tape Priming System. (Similar to the 1855 Harpers Ferry and Springfield Rifles) Some "Take Home's" after the Civil War were bored out by local gunsmiths to be used as shotguns for hunting. These will be smooth bore but will not have value to a collector of U.S. Military arms. A lot of these have been re-lined by Hoyt with rifled liners and are in use by re-enactors like the North/South Skirmish Association but they are worth about 50% of an original un-modified, un-touched rifle.

[eds]

In 1956 I bought an 1836 "Harpres" Ferry rifle with bayonet. Although it has the mispelling on the lock, it looks real-and I only paid $10 for it. I'm familiar with rifles and it looks real. It's in pretty good condition. It's precussion cap. Anybody know anything about one of these.

[colmurph]

eds....I never heard of Harpers Ferry mis-spelling it's name on a lock plate. The ONLY Mod. 1836 that Harpers Ferry made was the Type I and II Hall Carbines in .64cal smoothbore. The markings on the TOP of the receiver are "J.H. Hall/U.S./(Date )This musket resembles the pictures I have posted of the Hall Rifle on this thread. The next model that they made was the 1841 Muzzleloading "Mississippi" Rifle. in .54 cal.The side lockplate was marked Eagle over US forward of hammer and "Harpers/Ferry/(Date) on the tail of the lockplate. Also marked with date on breechplug tang and inspectors initials AW/P or WW/P and proofmarks (Eagle Head "V" and "P" on upper left side of barrel near tang) Next was the 1842 musket in .69 cal (Smoothbore) with similar markings. The last Harpers Ferry weapon made was the 1855 Rifle-Musket type I and II in .58 cal with the Maynard Tape Priming door ahead of the hammer. I have NEVER heard of any lockplates being mis-spelled. If you can get a photo of it onto the boards I'll try to identify it for you. Try to photograph the markings and lockplate. The possibility exists that the weapon is an original (maybe a contract rifle) that has had the lockplate altered to attempt to increase the value. You might even have an Enfield that was altered in India or Pakistan to resemble a Harpers Ferry.

[eds]

Col:
Excuse my ignorance. I couldn't figure out how to reply to your prompt reply to my query. I tried to send you somethiong direct but I don't know if you got it. Now that I figured it out-here goes.

Here are some of the specifics. Bought a Kentucky rifle and Trapdoor in Zanesville, Ohio in 1956. Seller threw in the H/F and the baynonet for $10.

Althought the lock is dated 1836 and misspells "Harpres Ferry", I just noted the barrel is stamped 1862. Don't know how I missed this the first time!

It is stamped with "9" and "v" on most parts. The barrel and plug are stamped "14". There is "H & P" on the nipple base.

Could this be a conversion of a flintlock. I'm really confused. Also, you implied this might be a copy. The kentucky rifle had a local history and I think the H/F did too. If Itwere a fake, would they sell it for $10.--even in 1956 dollars.

I have attached some pix but they could be better.

Hope maybe you can shed some light.
thx,
Ed Spengeman

[colmurph]

It appears to be an 1816 musket altered to percussion. The rear sight is correct for an 1861 rifled musket of the kind that were converted at Frankford Arsenal using a Remington Lock Plate with the Maynard Tape Priming System (A door in front of the hammer held a roll of paper caps) I would need to see a picture of the lock plate to be sure. The 9 on the lock plate bolster is probably a rack number and not an inspectors mark. These weapons were NOT serial numbered. The bore should be .69 cal. if I'm not mistaken. Someone may have substituted a reproduction lockplate in the weapon. If you can do it, attach a picture of the muzzle end to include the front band and a picture of the lockplate. Also try to get a picture of the top of the breech with any markings there.

[colmurph]

and the date marking in front of the bolster is incorrect. The barrels were dated on the tang at the rear of the breech. That date may have been put there to show when it was converted. The lockplate may be a foreign manufactured "Period" lockplate that was altered to appear to be a Harpers Ferry Lockplate. The lockplate should be marked Harpers Ferry/Date vertically behind the hammer on the tail of the lockplate and should have a US over an Eagle in front of the hammer. The front of the gun should have a Mod. 1816 style front band which is different from the nose cap of the 1861/1863 rifles. The later rifles did not have the serpentine opposite the lockplate on the left side of the stock. The serpentine you show is characteristic of the Mod. 1816 which was converted from flint to percussion in great numbers at the start of the Civil War.

[eds]

Dear Col.:
I hope I have attached the requested pix. The "9" may be a rack number but it's on about every part but the barrel and plug. On another board I read something about the "H & P" on the nipple mount. It had something to do with a changeover from flintlock. The only dates are 1836 on the lock plate and 1862 near the tang. Barrel is definitly smooth bore.
I hope the pictures come out ok.
Ed

[colmurph]

Ok, it's definitely an 1816 musket that's been converted from flint to percussion. It's a "Contract" musket and I'll have do do some research to find out who H & P was. It's definitely NOT Harpers Ferry. Harpers Ferry was pretty meticulous about inspections and did not pass any lockplates with misspellings. The 9 and 14 could be either sub-inspectors marks or more probably batch numbers on the parts. The misspelled marking may have been added later.
It's still worth a lot more than the $10.00 kyou paid for it. An original bayonet alone, for a Mod. 1816 is worth around $300.00.

[colmurph]

We have a new thread called Military Weapons now. We can post all of our stuff over on that thread now.