Anarchist Bomb?

[BLUEHAWK]

:cd:

I saw an editorial cartoonist today on CSPAN showing one of his cartoons for the Baltimore Sun newspaper, part of the image was one of those stereoptypical black spherical "bombs" with a fuse coming out of it fizzling like, I guess, a firecracker fuse.

Those things appear all throughout the 20th century in cartooons, I think mainly to represent anarchist bombs, whatever that means or meant at one time.

Was there ever such a device as that, actually? If so, when and what was it made of, how big was it really? How did that whole image get started, in other words?

[revwardoc]

The cartoons represent original hand grenades which were somewhat larger than a softball but smaller than a cantelope melon.It was made of iron and filled with black powder. The military term, grenadier, comes from the days when armies took the largest, strongest men, gave them a haversack full of grenades, put a brass-plated, smoldering linstockholder on their cartouche pouch strapsand had them march up to enemy breastworks. They would then, under a series of commands, pull out a grenade, apply the fuse to the smoldering linstock, then hurl it over the breastworks. It was quickly learned that the average lifespan in battle for a grenadier was roughly 30 seconds, so the grenade became a more defensive weapon to be thrown at an approaching enemy or dropped from a battlement. It had sort of a cowardly implication in that a relatively untrained man could kill or maim several of the enemy with just one grenade as opposed to fighting in a more manly hand-to-hand style. This same thinking made the Catholic Church attempt to ban crossbows from European battlefields because a commoner armed with one could easily kill an armored knight. Of course the Church was also hurt financially by the deaths of so many wealthy knights by the average poor workingvassal who was ordered into the army by his prince, duke, earl, etc.

So what it amounts to is that the cartoon anarchist, representing the forces of evil, uses a coward's weapon that can "spray" death onto innocent victims (women and children) as opposed to the uniformed enemy soldier who at least identifies himself rather than hide behind a black cloak and hat.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Dan -

So, I take it those devices came into use during the 17th & 18th centuries, roughly? Or was it much earlier than that...

And, now I understand where the term "grenadier" came from, and why the "anarchist" bomb is depicted as it is.

[revwardoc]

To tell you the truth, Bluehawk, I'm not exactly sure when hand grenades started but it was more than likely attempted in the 15th century when they started using simple hand held iron pipes to propel a projectile with powder. I would assume that the explosive power of a tightly contained quantity of gunpowder was discovered by accident and was duely noted by the survivors who finally figured a way to harness that power in a more productive (or destructive) manner.

The term "mortar" comes from the old mortar and pestle used by apothocaries to grind dried herbs into powder. The first cannons were cast using that idea but were used in a similar manner to catapults, simply throwing a large stone onto or over enemy battlements. The early cannons (mortars) were about as accurate as catapults but were psychologically more effective since they produced the loud report and great quantities of smoke and fire.

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -
I saw an old (I think) U.S. hand grenade yesterday on display at my American Legion Post, practically every Post I've ever visited has at least one for people to look at.

It was one with that grid shell... Carol and I just looked at it, trying to imagine what the effect would be when those little squares explode into high velocity tiny pieces.

I wasn't in the infantry, and the USAF doesn't show recruits anything resembling a grenade. But, I can guess that infantry, of any era, would regard the weapon as being very useful.

Is that grid type the one our guys are using today? Or, do they even have grenades?

[revwardoc]

Bluehawk,
You're gonna have to wait for a "dogface" or a "jarhead" to tell you about contemporary grenades. Like you, I only received rudimentary training on an M-16 twice a year and nothing with explosives, except what I bought at the local fireworks stands on the 4th of July. And after a couple of "too-damned-close-for-comfort" incidents with those babies I've decided to leave the explosives for combat engineers! Except of course for my musket.

[colmurph]

Grenades arose during the end of the 14th century. They were a spherical iron ball filled with blackpowder and set off by a fuse being lit by a match (smoking piece of nitrated rope that smouldered, similar to the match used in a "Match Lock") The shape pretty much stayed the same until the end of the Civil War. The size "Bomb" depicted in anacharist cartoons is the size that was used in Coehorn Mortars of the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. The "Bomb" was placed in the Mortar with the fuse pointing outward and lit then the mortar being fired. Somewhere along the line someone either got killed by one of the bombs detonating prematurely in the mortar or a mortar was fired before the fuze was lit and they discovered that the blowby gasses would light the fuse as it was fired. At any rate, during the Civil War, the "Bombs" were loaded into the mortar with the fuse facing forward and then the mortar was just fired. The fuse would be lit by the hot gasses escaping around the projectile and after a pre-determined time (this is where the term to "Cut a fuse" comes from) the bomb would explode. If you look at the "New Toy" thread, it will show you one of these Mortars.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Murph -

Does the infantry today still use those grid-shell type grenades?

[sfga6970]

The contemporary grenade does not have the grid shape. It is smooth on the outside but has wire laced within the explosive charge giving it a more symmetrical killing radius. The older "pineapple" grenades were a little less effective. Since explosive force is released to the weakest point, as in a shaped charge, the old grenades could send all their shrapnel in one direction. The newer ones are more effective.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga-
Thanks - I'm so curious about those because we never trained on anything of the kind...I'm still not real clear why the AF bothered to even show us the M-1 in those days. Now I can see why for the way things are set up, but not back then.

So, both kinds fragment, but the new ones fragment better, maybe (it sounds like) because somehow the wire inside kind of momentarily holds the shape of the grenade, long enough to distribute the explosion 360 degrees, or something like that?

Are those new smooth grenades used also on rifles still, or is there a different kind? And how in the world does a rifle shoot a grenade out from it? In old films it looks like there was some kind of a charge inside the barrel. But, I cannot reason out how the charge would not explode the grenade when it blew it out of the barrel... does the rifle grenade (if there even is such a thing anymore) have a back-end like a bullet has, where some kind of a pin hits on it? I have all sorts of questions about the grenade now that people have actually been answering them, probably best not to ask too many really.

It's just that I've never been routinely around firearms. In service I was on cargo aircraft in a Training Command, so rarely ever saw weapons or even fighters.

[sfga6970]

Today the Army uses a 40mm grenade. During Vietnam, it was more like a large shotgun (M79) with several types of rounds. They were effective but the grenadier had to carry another weapon for close combat. Today the grenade tube is under the barrel of the M-16 (M203?) which cuts down on the equipment carried.

Before the M79, there was a grenade launched by the M-1. You had to attach an extension to the barrel, insert the grenade on the end of the extension and use specially designed rounds to launch it. The recoil was such that you had to put the butt of the weapon on the ground and aim it and gauge your distance by changing the angle of the weapon. If you shoulder fired it, you would probably dislocate your shoulder. The new system is much more efficient.

[revwardoc]

There were even grenade launchers during the American Revolution. They hooked onto the musket using the bayonet lug and had an elongated bell shapedtube for firing the grenade. The musket was loaded with a blank charge, then the launcher with grenadewas fitted onto the bayonet lug, the musket was cocked, "aimed", the grenade fuse was lit, and the musket was fired. The launcher itself weighed about 2-4 pounds depending on if it was made of brass or iron. Either way it drastically affected the balance of the musket. In most cases the grenadier used a monopod with a U-shaped top to hold up the weighted muzzle. We sometimes use ours to fire tennis balls just for fun and can shoot them 75-100 yards. We've even used old billiard and croquet balls though they don't go as far, but its still fun! Once, after a "battle", wefired a black-painted tennis ball fillid with talcum powder. You should've seen it as it arched through the air with the powder coming out of it. It looked like a real grenade with a smoldering fuse...a great visual!

I love the smell of talcum powder in the morning. Smell like...a diaper. (Sorry Bob Duval)

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -

Well, so what is the difference between a grenade and a mortar? Sounds like they are basically the same? Or is it just a matter of explosive power?

[colmurph]

The grenade is the Projectile, the Mortar is the Projector.
The old "Pineapple" grenades have been superceeded twice that I know of. The original Pineapple (grid shell) was loaded with black powder but that did ot give a very good fragmentation effect. Sometimes the grenade would only split up into three or four parts. They then started using TNT as a filler which gave better results but still not very good as the body was of cast iron. They next went to a grenade with the same general egg shape but with a smooth outer casing of thin steel. Inside was a coiled square wire that was grooved every 4 mm. The filler was TNT and this gave a much better fragmentation effect. The last was the "Baseball" grenade which has a thin steel case which is filled with a triple layer of BB's in an epoxy coating on the inside which is then scattered by C-4, a much more powerful explosive than TNT. The "Baseball" once came with two types of fuzes. One was a regular delay and the other was a delay with an impact feature. Lots of guys got killed because they didn't understand how to use them. When you let the spoon fly the delay (5 1/2 second) would start but if it impacted something before the 5 1/2 seconds were up it would detonate. Some guys thought they could let the spoon fly and hold the thing all day without it going off.......last mistake they ever made. Needless to say, these were taken out of the supply system.

[BLUEHAWK]

Colonel Murph -

Thank you guys for your patience on this...

- So, is EVERY projectile in EVERY mortar called a grenade?

- I looked at that amazing old Coehorn mortar photograph, and now it occurs to me I still cannot reason out HOW the grenade gets blown out of the cylinder? I've seen our guys just drop a grenade into a mortar, and then in a few second it blasts out of there. How? Why the delay, or does it actually fly out right away?

- Did the grenades in a Coehorn type mortar come out the same way they do in today's mortars?

- In what part of the U.S. service do grenadiers have their duty? Artillery? Cavalry? Or are they assigned to units separately?

- Is there such a thing as a Grenadiers unit anymore?

- Do Grenadiers have their own distinctive shoulder patches or unit insignia?

- In the Civil War weren't there really gigantic mortars and grenades? What calibre were those?

- How in the world did they manage to get grenades INTO those mortars?

- I saw a brief TV program during the invasion period in Iraq, of one of our guys demonstrating several steps he had to take in aiming a mortar. It looked like it took him five minutes. Does it?

- Does a mortar-fired grenade, vs. a hand-thrown one, also fragment on impact?

[sfga6970]

A mortar and a grenade are two different weapons. A grenade is usually thrown or launched by a hand held grenade launcher. You could say that a mortar is "small artillery" used by infantry units. The mortar round looks similar to a rocket, such as that in the bazooka and has an impact fuse. There are several different sizes used, but the most common are the 81mm and 4.2in mortars. SOF still use the 60mm but only in special circumstances.

Set up time depends on the training and ability of the crew. The 4.2 is the toughest to set up, wth aiming circles, charges etc. but it can reach out farther than the others and is quite effective.

[BLUEHAWK]

Guys -
Thank you all...

Today PF has a gallery photo of the M-79 grenade launcher on the home page, and it shows the shoulder piece of the stock turning UPwards, opposite of the usual long gun (I believe). Why would that be?

[sfga6970]

The angle of the stock is different because the angle of aim is not the same as it would be for a rifle. The Muzzle velocity of the M79 is much less than that of a rifle so you have to aim higher than horizontal. If you look at pictures of the sight, you will see that it is much higher than the sight for a high velocity weapon. It is more like a shoulder fired mortar than a rifle.

It might be similar to comparing an artillery round to a tank round - different trajectories. An experienced M79 gunner can put an HE round through a window at 200 yds or more -- You can't throw a grenade that far.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga (I don't know yet a better way to address you)

- So then, would a M-79 gunner be allowed sufficient opportunity for practise in order to actually PUT an HE round (what does HE mean?) through a window at 200 yards! Cripes... or do they have to get that on their own? If so, how do they manage! 200 yards is quite a long way, two football fields!

- What you are saying is that a rifle-fired round goes more or less straight (hopefully) to a target , whereas a grenade launcher gunner must account far more for trajectory and windage and such as that?

- How IS windage (my best professional terminology) accounted for in the firing of such a weapon under the duress of battle!

- Assuming one gunner can only carry so many rounds upon themselves, how in the world do they obtain additional ones in time of need? What should happen if they run out!!!

- What relationship does size (calibre or mm) of the bore, with length of casing and therefore quantity of charge, have to do with how far a projectile will accurately (taking into account good aiming) travel?

I am rather proud to state, if you will allow this, that I, having never before fired a rifle in my life, came within 6 points of Expert on the range first time out! I know this must sound juvenile, but it was an achievement for one such as me. That was 1963. And, what is more, in 1990, a friend took me to a pistol range for the experience of firing his personal sidearms. I put nearly all shots (45, 357,9,&38) well within the important target locations, at 50 yards. Today, my eyes are not quite so capable.

I so admire infantry soldiers, who under fire must aim if they are able. And, who in firing thus, serve to protect freedom.

Had I to do it over, I should like to have been considered for a Marine. I believe I would have had a fair chance to become one.

Thank you guys for tolerating my queries... it really does mean a lot.

[colmurph]

The Coehorn Mortar has a sub-chamber in the bottom of the barrel to hold the powder. The bomb is placed in the tube (bore) from the front and when the fuse of the mortar is lit the powder in the chamber explodes and propels the bomb upward and outward at a 45 degree angle. Range is determined by the powder charge and not elevation in these old mortars. The elevation is fixed at 45 degrees. The range of one of these old things was around 600 yards max. All mortars are front loaded. The 60mm, 81mm and 4.2" mortar that you have probably seen in war pictures have a propellant charge at the base of the projectile that looks something like a shotgun cartrige and also attached pieces of nitro cellulose. Range is controlled by elevation and powder charge (the nitrocellulose pieces are the propellant) There is a firing pin fixed to the bottom of the tube in the case of the 81mm and the 4.2" mortar and when the round slides down the tube the base charge primer hits this pin and the round if fired. The 60mm mortar has a selector type firing pin. You can either set it for "Drop Fire" or you can manually fire the mortar after the round has been dropped in the tube.

Old or new, the round comes out the same way it went into the tube. In the case of the coehorn, it had a powder charge in the bottom of the tube that was lit off the same way you would fire an old cannon. If you look at both pictures of the coehorn you will see the touch hole under the GR crown in top of the tube.

[Sgt_Tropo]

I used the M79 and the M16 in 'Nam. You asked about how does them79 operator get experience. the same as the rifleman, you practise, practise, practise. Actually, the M79 was pretty easy to get used to.
The M79 is a single-shot, breech-loaded unit. This means that you have to "break" open the piece after every shot, like a shotgun, remove the spent cartridge shell by hand, manually load another round, close the breech, shoulder the weapon, aim and fire. It's pretty time consuming, but I've heard of other M-79er's that could get three rounds in the air before the first one hit. I could only manage two, but then wasn't shooting the max distance either.
What does HE stand for ? It stands for High Explosive. Although I've never heard of "low" explosive :p ! Anyway, there are several different types of rounds for the M-79. There's HE, and White Phospherous (known as Willey Pete), flare rounds (good for illumination or starting fires!) and the every popular anti-personnel round (AP), or shotgun round.
The anti-personel round was, in my opinion rather weak. THe reason being that you only have 12 or 14 lead pellets (double 00+ size) being pushed out of the barrel. since the barrel is approximately 2" in diameter, you can see how a lot of muzzle pressure is lost. I used a "special" load in my AP rounds to help overcome the short-comings.
I would pry the cover off the center of the AP rouns and dump out the lead pellets. Then I would take the steel shot from a claymore mine (smaller, but more deadly) and fill the center hole and replace the cap. Next, I would place the steel shot in the expansion slots around the outter parimeter and drop hot wax over these to hold them in place. This wa an extremely effective AP round, but required a through cleaning of the weapon after firing several of these, before firing any of the "solid" projectiles again.
The improvement of the AP round was awesome ! The normal AP round was only good for VERY close engagements and the lead pellets were easily defected by folage, or stopped altogether by minimal cover. The steel shot modified rounds I fired were good for more than twice the range and the killing / stopping power was almost as good as the 12 gauge shotguns some guys carried for close support. Of course, within 25 feet to 25 yards (close engagement) either one would put a huge hole in a body. The main difference was that my AP round dispersed a little wider and therefore had a broader killing swath.
The very sound difference between a standard AP round and mine was also quite noticable. The standard round had more of a hollow "pop" sound, as opposed to mine sounding more like a old M-80 (cherry bomb) going off.
The first time I fired one of these on the practise range, EVERYBODY stopped firing ! I looked around to see if someone was going to chew me out, but then when I sawn that the target was completely destroyed, I started laughing out loud. I must have made over a hundred of those rounds. Seems like everyone with an M79 wanted some and wanted to know how I made them. I guess it was a good thing we didn't have any Geneva convention observers around !! :p
As far as carrying rounds, I carried two 12 round bandoliers. I also had a sidearm with 5 clips total and the M16 with 10 clips. The typical "stroll through the woods" was only a day or two at the most for us, so we could get resupplied or extracted pretty quick. Units that were operating on longer range patrols probably had extra rounds being carried by one or two other squad members. I would have liked to have had one of the newer "over-under" M16/M79 combos. It would have been a lot easier to carry in the bush and I would have felt a lot more secure having the M16 fire power immediately available with the M79 explosive power.

[sfga6970]

http://www.diddybop.demon.co.uk/blooper.htm

[sfga6970]

Sgt_Tropo thanks for answering for me. To add to what you said, everyone on our recon teams carried extra rounds for the 79, just like we all carried extra radio batteries. The "thump" sounded good in a firefight.

This site gives some technical info about the M79.

http://www.diddybop.demon.co.uk/blooper.htm

[BLUEHAWK]

Guys -
Thanks again...
So, the Coehorn mortar has a subchamber which gets powder itself, the fuse is lit on the grenade and dropped into it, and then the chamber is lit and that fires the grenade out?

I am still unclear how, now with 3 types of rounds for the old M-79, they get fired out. I guess each round type is struck with some kind of firing pin, like a regular rifle?

Tropo, how in heaven did you not kill yourself taking pellets out of a Claymore mine!!! I thought they go off if you just touch them?

And, I am guessing, if one guy carries up to 24 M-79 rounds they must not be all that heavy or large? Its hard to tell the scale of the weapon, and so the scale of the rounds.

Does the Willey Pete explode in the air sometimes or only on impact?

Did the gunner also carry other firearms, sidearms or something, or were you the designated large shell operators? In a firefight if you ran out of ammo and supply what did you do? Throw rocks or something :-) The guys bringing you ammo supply, was the box very heavy for just one person to run around with all over the place?

Also, I think I asked, but is a mortar man thought of as artillery or infantry?

This is absolutely fascinating...

[Sgt_Tropo]

You questions,
"I am still unclear how, now with 3 types of rounds for the old M-79, they get fired out. I guess each round type is struck with some kind of firing pin, like a regular rifle?

Tropo, how in heaven did you not kill yourself taking pellets out of a Claymore mine!!! I thought they go off if you just touch them?

And, I am guessing, if one guy carries up to 24 M-79 rounds they must not be all that heavy or large? Its hard to tell the scale of the weapon, and so the scale of the rounds.

Does the Willey Pete explode in the air sometimes or only on impact? "

[Sgt_Tropo]

You questions,
"I am still unclear how, now with 3 types of rounds for the old M-79, they get fired out. I guess each round type is struck with some kind of firing pin, like a regular rifle?

Tropo, how in heaven did you not kill yourself taking pellets out of a Claymore mine!!! I thought they go off if you just touch them?

And, I am guessing, if one guy carries up to 24 M-79 rounds they must not be all that heavy or large? Its hard to tell the scale of the weapon, and so the scale of the rounds.

Does the Willey Pete explode in the air sometimes or only on impact? "
________________
Let me try and answer these for you.
1) All the M-79 rounds were made in the same fashion as a typical round for a riflr. you have a projectile, which is fitted to a casing, which is filled with smokeless powder and the primer. The round fires off just like a rifle round.

2) Claymore mines are not touch sensitive". They have to be denotated with a electromechanical plunger-type trigger mechanism. This can also be attached to a trip-wire denotator, which acts to trip a reverse action trigger mechanism, but basically accomplishes the same thing.
Dismantling a claymore is fairly straightforward and easy. Many of these mines were disassembled to get the c-4 out for use as cooking fires, etc. Once the case was open, the sheet of sheet balls could be readily accessed and removed. Once I had it removed, it was easily broken apart and the steel shot used as I described.

3) The M-79 round is ap[proximately 2" in diameter, approximately 4" long and the weight varies between roughly 6-8 oz (AP round) to about 1.2 pounds for the HE round. Carrying up to 24 rounds meant that you had a preety good "mix" of round types. Other squad members would typically carry a bandolier of mixed rounds for you, too.
The weapon itself was about 6-7 pounds, unloaded. Its length was approximately 26" (give or take).
A typical day-pack (ammo, water, mre's, etc. for 24-48 hours) would weigh in at around 40 pounds. I've heard guys tell that the rucksacks used for longer deployments could weigh as much 85 pounds or more! I'm just glad I only had to do close-in patrols.

4) The M-79 rounds were designed to primarily explode upon impact, but the round was fully "armed" after it traveled a specific distance and had completed a set number of revolutions or spins. This delay in arming was to protect the operator / marksman from being too close to the exploding round, such as if it hit a close-in tree branch. Minimum distance to arm was approximately 25 yards and that could be too close if you were standing up in the open ! If the enemy was that close, I'd be using the M16 and the modified AP rounds in the M-79!
The only air-burst rounds I know of were the arial flare rounds. These rounds would fire a flare (these came in different colors for illumination, identification and signaling), usually at a very high trajectory. The round would ignite after a set number of revolutions and the flare (if it were an illumionation round) would parachute slowly back down. The decent usually lasted for approximatel two minutes, which can be an eternity when you caugth out in the open ! Signal flare rounds did not use a parachute and thus were designed for a much shorter burn time.
These types of flares were also good for starting fires behind or within the enemy positions and providing good good sighting or silohettes (especially effective between dusk and dawn).

I hope've sufficiently answered your questions. Sounds like you Air Force types didn't get much, if any, weapons training. :p That's OK though, because I didn't get much training on the use of a Phantom ! :D

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Tropo, for your patience...I learned a lot.

Nope, in the ice age the USAF handed us an M-1 carbine and clip of ten rounds, one time, on a range...never saw one again or anything resembling a rifle or sidearm. My weapons were wrenches and a lot of dirty smelly oil.

They sure did shoot at our 123s though, lots of holes.

Were M-79 gunners considered infantry or artillery unit members, or what? Are mortar operators infantry or artillery?

They also did not teach us much about the army, obviously. I think there is a kind of service pride thing goin' on with that.

[MORTARDUDE]

As it happens I was a mortar crewman and was assigned an M-79.

Each infantry company had 4 platoons. Three are 11B ( MOS ) infantrymen. The 4th platoon is know as the weapons platoon and are 11C ( MOS ). In our time, this was where the 81mm responsibility was. Since we were mechanized, we had APCs equipped with .50 cal and M-60 machine guns and were an integrated part of all of the infantry missions. At night, the line tracks set up in a circle and we were in the middle to provide fire support. Our tracks were loaded with illumination, white phosporus, and high explosive rounds. They also had a big white square on the side which symbolized the 4th, or mortar, platoon. Thank God none of them got hit with an RPG. I enjoyed firing and working with the 81mm mortars. As I recall, we used the white phosporus rounds as the first round fired to make sure we were in the right area and it seemed they exploded in the air. We were always in the the thick of the action. When I got back to the states I worked with the 4.2" mortars. The rounds were about the same size as a 105mm artillery round and the range was quite a bit more than the 81mm. As for the M-79, I had HE, illum, fleshette, CS gas, shotgun, and maybe more kind of rounds. I didn't use it much in the jungle because of the all the limbs in the way. It had a sight on top and when you learned how to use it, was very accurate. I qualified expert on this in AIT. Hope this helps.

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Larry -

From all I can gather, an M-79 gunner would, then, be assigned to an infantry unit in a weapons platoon (this is difficult for an airman to understand, since ALL infantry have "weapons")... but I have an impression that infantry units are not just all riflemen, that there are e.g. radiomen, sappers probably and maybe other MOS (air force AFSC?)? Like what others?

Is there such a thing as a unit which is ALL mortar "dudes" In that case would they be artillery or something else?

[MORTARDUDE]

Anyone could have an M-79 in the infantry. Only the 4th platoon in each infantry company ( 4 plattons make up a company ) had mortars and mortar crewman.

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry -

- What do the other 3 platoons do?

- Would it be kosher to share how many M-79 gunners might be in a company?

- Do you know what a letter "T" stood for on a WWII Army shoulder patch? My dad was one of those, but I don't know what it meant.

[MORTARDUDE]

Duh...the other three platoons are the trigger-pullers...the infantry...I do not know how the M-79 issue was handled. I was handed one when i reported in. I did not see many others around. About the time I left the over and under M-16 / grenade launcher combo was coming in.

The "T" represents "Tech" or "Technical" sort of like the "Specialist" grades used to be. I am sure you can find some info on the 'Net.

Larry

[Sgt_Tropo]

Our unit had a M79 in each squad. Our Platoon leader simply put in a requisition for the launchers and then assigned one man in each squad to the weapon. We spent a couple of days on the firing range to get familiar with what the different rounds would do and then we spent an hour or so with a firing range officer to qualify. I qualified "sharpshooter".
A lot of us in the Army got to become familiar and qualified with many different weapons.
I've talked with other guys who pretty much said the same thing. The number of M79s in a squad or platoon was dependent upon how loudly the platoon leader voiced an opinion to have one in his unit. Most platoons had at least one and at lot had 4 or more.

[BLUEHAWK]

Sarge, thanks...
I know these questions seem unbelievably basic, so replies are greatly valued. I'm just curious, guess I've BEEN curious since gradeschool days of playing "war" with buddies and broomhandles in the ravines around home.

So, a company of four platoons could have as many as 4-16 M-79 gunners, depending on how the platoon NCO wanted to configure his attack/defense tactics. M-79 gunners are considered infantry, but mortar operators might be assigned to artillery units OR infantry companies?

Are they ever assigned to cavalry?

I understand from Larry that everyone else in a platoon is a rifleman, but does that mean absolutely everyone? Aren't there medics, and cooks and clerks and radio guys and such as that too?

What is the difference between a squad and a platoon?

Is there a unit smaller than a squad?

Is a bazooka considered a kind of shoulder-fired mortar?

[sfga6970]

You have asked for a lot of info in your question. I'll try to be brief. The multiple of four applies to most units. There are four squads in a platoon - three rifle squads and one weapons squad. The weapons squad has the crew served weapons (machine guns) and supports the other three. A Company has four platoons, three rifle and a heavy weapons platoon. The HW platoon supports the rifle platoons with indirect fire weapons (mortars). A Battalion has four companies - three line Infantry, and a HQ Co. the HQ Co. Is where you find the cooks, clerks, medics, mechanics and other support personnel.

Most, if not all, use the M203 instead of the M79. It is an M16 with a 40mm tube under the rifle barrel. this way, the gunner doesn't have to carry two separate weapons. The smallest unit is a fire team. Each rifle squad has two fire teams which support each other during "fire and maneuver" as they approach an objective.

The bazooka is a direct fire rocket and a mortar is an indirect fire weapon, high trajectory.

Hope I helped.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga -
Man, this is interesting to an airman... I think most non-ground unit vets think they know this stuff but don't. I like knowing it because it helps be more understanding of what structure Marines and Army have to work with in combat and training. I suppose Seals and our USAF extraction units might function similarly, possibly. Thanks for clarifying.

So I'm guessing units of four battalions would make up a regiment, and four regiments a division, and four divisions a whole army?

- When you see a mortar firing off, it looks like it flies out of the tube when it hits the bottom, is that correct to think?

- And, if a bazooka fires a rocket projectile, how in the world does it come out of there? I mean, I think the back end of the weapon is open isn't it? So there can't be a firing pin or something... I've been trying to imagine how that would work, so am guessing it has some sort of an electrical sparking thingey ignited by a trigger? Is the back end left open to reduce recoil? Our guys are using a new kind of bazooka these days aren't they? I think I saw a couple of them being fired in Iraq news reports, but I wouldn't know the difference between a bazooka and a RPG or the difference between a RPG and a grenade launcher.

- What DOES an infantry company do, under combat conditions when every damn thing can get haywire real fast, when they are in serious need of HQ support personnel? HQ doesn't travel WITH the rifle company does it? Or, do squads of medics, mechanics, sappers and etc. come into the combat zone right with the infantry? In battle, wouldn't it be the way for medics (at least) to arrive at the front WITH the gunners?

I can keep this up as long as one of you guys with experience will keep answering... and I hope you will. I don't think many americans (or USN - USAF - USCG vets) truly understand what goes on for you people. Unless I AM the only one, which is definitely possible.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga -
Man, this is interesting to an airman... I think most non-ground unit vets think they know this stuff but don't. I like knowing it because it helps be more understanding of what structure Marines and Army have to work with in combat and training. I suppose Seals and our USAF extraction units might function similarly, possibly. Thanks for clarifying.

So I'm guessing units of four battalions would make up a regiment, and four regiments a division, and four divisions a whole army?

- When you see a mortar firing off, it looks like it flies out of the tube when it hits the bottom, is that correct to think?

- And, if a bazooka fires a rocket projectile, how in the world does it come out of there? I mean, I think the back end of the weapon is open isn't it? So there can't be a firing pin or something... I've been trying to imagine how that would work, so am guessing it has some sort of an electrical sparking thingey ignited by a trigger? Is the back end left open to reduce recoil? Our guys are using a new kind of bazooka these days aren't they? I think I saw a couple of them being fired in Iraq news reports, but I wouldn't know the difference between a bazooka and a RPG or the difference between a RPG and a grenade launcher.

- What DOES an infantry company do, under combat conditions when every damn thing can get haywire real fast, when they are in serious need of HQ support personnel? HQ doesn't travel WITH the rifle company does it? Or, do squads of medics, mechanics, sappers and etc. come into the combat zone right with the infantry? In battle, wouldn't it be the way for medics (at least) to arrive at the front WITH the gunners?

I can keep this up as long as one of you guys with experience will keep answering... and I hope you will. I don't think many americans (or USN - USAF - USCG vets) truly understand what goes on for you people. Unless I AM the only one, which is definitely possible.

[sfga6970]

Once you get above Battalion level, the mix of units can change. You can have Regimental Combat Teams, which can be either tank heavy or infantry heavy depending on what their mission is. In general, a Division has three Brigades and their next higher level would be Corps, not Army.

A bazooka is a recoilless weapon, that is why it is open in the back. The modern weapons are also recoilless but are much more effective than the 2.75 rocket fired by the traditional bazooka that was developed for WWII. As you suspected, the bazooka is electrically fired. Mortars have a firing pin in the base of the tube and are fired when the cap hits the pin.

[sfga6970]

Sorry, but I forgot to reply to your other questions. Most units down to company size have medics and RTOs attached during combat. They would be considered part of the command section of the Company and accompany the troops to the battlefield. The radio operator stays with the Commander but is also a rifleman. The other support personnel stay with Bn. and are used as needed.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga - you're great!

Do you know, why is there a unit called an "army" in the Army?

I mean, what is the difference between the two. I realize one is smaller, but how did there ever come to need be a unit of 3-4 Corps which would be called an army in the Army?

Do the Marines have these same unit divisions?

[sfga6970]

I believe that an army within "the Army" is based on history. In the past, communications and the ability to move was restricted. Therefore, separate commands were assigned to different operations. A good example would be the Civil War "Army of the Potomac" versus Lee's "Army of Northern Virginia". The military is very traditional and tends to keep terms in use that are rooted in history. It is similar to your service, why was there an 8th Air Force and 9th Air Force within "the Air Force" (although until after WWII it was the Army Air Corps)? Tradition dictates most of the designations even though the composition of the units change with the times.

As for the Marine Corps, I believe that they are similar in their unit structure but you will have to ask a Marine for the specifics. I know that they have squads, platoons, companies and battalions similar to the army but their support structure is both Marine and Navy combined. As an example, their medics are Navy corpsmen.
I can't speak for the Marines, but I have great respect for them and hope that a qualified Marine can answer your questions about their service and how it is organized.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thank you, again... I understand that much better now when you used the example of Civil War armies.

Of course, when I was serving, the Air Force had flights, squadrons, wings and commands etc., in lieu of our former 8th AF (et al) and Army Air Corps designations. Nowadays I'm a bit out of touch with how they designate units, but can tell from seeing the many many shoulder patches now common that they have definitely expanded things considerably.

I, too, hope a Marine might see this inquiry.

[PHO127]

He would still be on the floor rolling in tears. And then there is ARTILLERY the king of battle. We have light howitzers (105mm), Medium howitzers (155mm) and heavy howitzers (8inch) we got 155mm guns and 175mm guns and MLRS and Air Defense Artillery and Aerial Rocket Artillery and high explosive and white phosphorus and flechets and illumination and propaganda shells and quick fuses and time fuses and proximity fuses. fixed and semi-fixed ammo. We can come up with the most unusual combinations such as HEKJ or WPKJ (High Explosive or White phosphorus with a time fuse set to .2, .3 or .4 tenths of a second. Fondly called Killer Jr). I once called in a battery one of illumination with a 50 meter height of burst to try and set some bamboo on fire.

[BLUEHAWK]

Pho -

What is a "propaganda shell"?

Yer friendly local non-gunny

[PHO127]

Come in 155 and 8 inch sizes, same type of operation as a leaflet bomb. A hollow steel casing filled with desired leaflets and a very small ejecting charge and time fuse. When fired over a specific target the shell will then eject the leaflets over the area. When the 25th division stood down from combat the 1st battalion 27th infantry was designated as base camp defense for Cu Chi Base camp. Cu Chi had about 8,000 meters of perimeter to defend, we had 1 infantry battalion and 1 artillery battery of 6 M102 105mm howitzers. During the standdown we were attacked by a regimental size unit that came in from the south and west of Ann Margaret gate, on a point where I had displaced 3 howitzers. The 3 howitzers fired a combination of beehive, HE and WP into the attackers, direct fire. By empty casing count the 3 howitzers fired 720 rounds in approximately 16 minutes. We did not bother to count the body parts.

[BLUEHAWK]

Pho -
Amazing...
Okay, here is a question I will attempt to phrase intelligently:
If 3 howitzers firing 720 well-placed rounds can reduce a regiment to uncountable body parts in 16 minutes, then under what conditions and by what means (if it were OUR guys facing those howitzers) would that scenario have been most likely to fail?
I am assuming that "direct fire" means relatively horizontal aiming rather than high trajectory lobbing?
A silly question perhaps, too, but what were your unit's riflemen doing while the howitzers were firing? And, how many men are required to fire a single howitzer once?

[Sgt_Tropo]

Man-o-man, Pho. with a 15 second cyclic rate of fire, you must have had some tired loaders, when all was said and done. Them shells aint 'xactly light, especially loading over 200 in just 16 minutes. The Psyco Vets were definitely at Ch Chi and working in high gear. Glad you made it and made Chuck pay the price, in spades !

[PHO127]

Bluehawk, A frontal assualt on an emplaced light artillery position is suicide. There is no way for infantry to win. they may continue the assualt until the artillery runs out of ammo but the cost would be astronomical. This action was just pure luck, the three howitzers were moved after dark to their positions and just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The infantry was also engaging the NVA with all small arms in the sector probably a couple of squads at first and re-enforced to about a platoon. The infantry mortar sections, the 4.2s and 81s provided illumination then alternated with illum and counter battery/mortar fire on pre-selected areas. I have spent only a very short time actually in an artillery unit so the crew details are slow to come and Colmurph and Arty Sgt can give better data than I can. As I remember, there is a crew of 5 on a 105 plus ammo handlers, Chief of section (runs the gun and gives the command to fire), Gunner (opens and closes the breech, sets the elevation and pulls the lanyard to fire) Asst gunner sets the deflection and traverses the gun and crewmen 1,2 and 3 that load the gun. For those of you familiar with Cu Chi this was where the rice paddys were south and west of Ann Margret gate near the runway. They came in using the water for cover.

[MORTARDUDE]

Sid :

I hadn't heard about this attack on Cu Chi. When did it happen ?
I left about the middle on Nov. '70. When did the 25th Division pull out ?
Sounds like quite a battle. Did they come from the area of the old Filhol rubber plantation ? Thanks.

Larry

[PHO127]

It was late November possibly early December. We turned over the base and moved to below Xuan Loc a little south of FSB Blackhorse sometime in Mid December. No, they did not come from the Filhole, Filhole had been cleared and was just a vacant plain ( heavy brush and vines) all the way to the river. they came across the rice paddys

[PHO127]

Am leaving for a few days of R&R up on Psyco Mountain. Haven't done much work there this summer because of all the rain. Lt is recovering from surgery and may come up later in the week. Larry, see if you can find an aerial shot of Cu Chi in all your links.

TTFN

[BLUEHAWK]

Good grief Pho... "Welcome Home" somehow seems a tad brisk for a thanks.

You said, "...a frontal assault on an emplaced light artillery position is suicide".

So, my next question would be, since that is true (or sure as damn well hell would appear to make common sense fer crissake!), then for what reason was it once believed to be an acceptable risk having any chance of success (as in our War of Rebellion infantry charges against artillery)?

p.s. I assume you are meaning that OUR infantry guys and commanders are no longer suicidal enough to MAKE a frontal assault on an emplaced light artillery position. My reading of WWI battle tactics suggests that this lesson was learned in that conflict, am I right in this assumption? I don't recall, though am not comprehensively self-informed, any such infantry assaults against enemy artillery in WWII or since.

[colmurph]

Bluehawk. Mortars have a firing pin either fixed, that the round drops on or as in the case of the 60mm mortar, selective for either "Drop Fire" or firing with a triggering mechanisim. The 3.5 Inch Rocket Launcher (Now obsolete) was fired electrically. There were two wires that came out of the back of the rocket motor and were attached to the launcher. The "Beehive" round, in case you didn't know, was a 105 or 155 round for use when the artillery position came under direct ground attack. It was filled with thousands of 2 1/2" steel darts that were accelerated by an explosive charge as soon as the projectile cleared the muzzle of the howitzer. The explosion of the base charge pushed their velocity up to around 6,000 fps and the darts from one round would cover every inch of a football field at a hundred yards. Really nasty round. I've seen parts of bodies actually "Nailed" to a tree by the "flechettes" along with a weapon with the rest of the skeleton laying at the bottom of the tree after everything else rotted away.(in vietnam it took about a week for everything to rot off a body or get eaten by insects.)

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Colonel Murph... that is surely more than I ever hoped to know about an artillery round. I can readily understand, however, that if an enemy were to be so suicidal as to knowingly frontally assault an american howitzer battery... respectfully Sir, words fail me.

[MORTARDUDE]

Sid :

here is an aerial view of Cu Chi :

http://www.users.qwest.net/~huffpapa/vietnam.html

This guy has a great Vietnam website.


http://www.users.qwest.net/~huffpapa/vietnam.html

He was there almost the same time I was. He was in the 1/5 Mech. he was in all the same places as I was, same firebases and we worked with them in Cambodia.

Larry

[Sgt_Tropo]

Cu chi was not the only firebase that sustained a frontal attack, which was repulsed by direct artillery fire. It is my humble opinion that Uncle Chuck kept repeating this type of assault because;
1) there were never suvivors to tell the rest of the VC / NVA just exactly how stupid this type of attack was,
2) the men making the attack had never heard about the flechette rounds that would be used in direct fire by the artillery pieces,
3) The VC / NVA had no repect whatsoever of human life (theirs or ours)
4) the VC / NVA were simply stupid enough to think that they could overrun the base with sheer numbers, regardless of the firepower of the entrenched defenders and their combined firepower. (I think they "learned" this from the Chinesse tactics used in the Korean war. There were many times the Chinesse were able to overrun a position by sheer numbers alone and their total disregard for human life.)
5) The VC /NVA took a reading from a Native American Souix chief who was credited with saying, "Today is a good day to die." and proved it true.

Whatever the reasoning was, it was seriously flawed ! :D

[ArtySgt]

SGT_TROPO, you got it covered.. I can't add any thing else but to say that as a section chief on a 105mm towed gun, I faced a full scale frontal attack once and lived to tell about it.

[BLUEHAWK]

Sargeants, both -

Well, if two combat NCOs who have stood fast with their men at their weapons, firing murderously effective artillery rounds point blank into onrushing regiments of the enemy, agree that the enemy had no regard for their own or our human lives, then it is to be believed.

I seem to recall that the Chinese did something like that too, I believe on the day before or day of the Korean armistice.

Hence, if I may venture an amateur military strategist's opinion... while we are all facing the middle east, at our six is an enemy who intends to pull economic strings at the proper moment, knowing we know, because of your experiences, that they can be depended upon to act suicidally.

[Sgt_Tropo]

Glad you were on the right end of the gun, my friend. The only experiences I had with artillery was the suport they provided me and my men from a distance. I was then and still am amazed at their accuracy in hitting targets they can't see. This is even more amazing when you think about how prone to error our FO's were in reporting present positions while under enemy fire. more than once we had artillery dropping well within what I now would consider a "safe radius".

[MORTARDUDE]

During my brief sojurn with the leg unit ( 3/22 ) I went first to FSB Crook in Nov 1969. In June 0f 1969 they also tried a human wave assault and lost 400+ dead against one dead American. They were hit with arty, mortars, Spooky, gunships, jets..you name it. You would think after Tet they would know better...They did it two nights in a row ( see below ). There were skulls on some of the barb wire around the fire base. This was a real spooky place at night. I spent a week there then got orders for the Mech unit.
We got a few mortar rounds one night, otherwise it was quiet. we fired H & I s all night.

Battle of FSB Crook information
for 3/22 INF
25 INF DIV
187 AHC

From date 690605 to 690607


3/22 INF was a US Army unit
25 INF DIV was a US Army unit
187 AHC was a US Army unit
Primary service involved, US Army
Tay Ninh Province, III Corps, South Vietnam
Location, FSB Crook
Description: FSB Crook was located northwest of Tay Ninh city about four miles from the Cambodian border in a flat but forested area. It was manned by elements of the 3/22d Inf, 25th Inf Div. All approaches were covered by sensor devices made available from the DMZ barrier as well as radar mounted on the observation tower. These detected large movement in the tree line around the base. Artillery was fired and things quieted down until 0300 when the base began taking a heavy concentration of rocket and mortar fire. The 272d NVA Regt charged the base from the south and east. The defenders answered with their howitzers and machine-guns plus heavy supporting fires. The 16 NVA who managed to breach the outer wire were killed by claymores and rifle fire. The majority of the NVA defiantly remained on the field to fire RPGs and rifles. These were attacked by USAF AC-47 and AC-119 aircraft plus helicopter gunships and jets. Night one of this battle was over. The following was taken from the 22nd Infantry Society website. The Battle of FSB Crook, 'They Were All Heroes' FSB CROOK, 7 June 69. During two nights of deadly close-in fighting, Bravo Company of the 3d Battalion, 22d Infantry, turned back two NVA regiments. In two separate back-to-back ground attacks Thursday and Friday nights on FSB Crook, eight and a half miles northwest of Tay Ninh City the outnumbered Regulars held firm and killed off the charging NVA. Both battles saw the NVA forces soundly defeated. The enemy initially tried to breach the perimeter with sappers but failed. At no time was the Regulars? bunker line penetrated. Supporting fires for Crook were supplied by Cobra gunships, tactical air strikes, spookie, shadow (C-119 gunship) and a host of artillery batteries. Alpha Battery of the 7th Battalion, 11th Artillery, fired point blank into the on-rushing enemy as rocket and mortar fire slammed into Crook. "Throughout the attacks my men performed remarkably. Even during the height of the in-coming rounds, they got out of their bunkers and fired the guns. They knew they had to do it, so they stayed low and we came out like bandits, taking very few casualties," said the battery commander, CPT Dick Neal of San Antonio, TX. As Bravo Company left the perimeter to sweep the area the following morning they were greeted by hand grenade-throwing NVA who tossed the grenades out of well camouflaged spider holes. Bravo returned to its perimeter and had spookie hose down the area with its deadly mini-gun. Alpha Company was dropped off four kilometers north of Crook by the 187th AHC to spoil the enemy?s rapid retreat. Following a trail of commo wire they met head-on with the NVA regiment?s headquarters. 1LT William Ervin of Richmond, VA, called for tactical air strikes as he maneuvered his men against the enemy. Darkness forced Alpha to return to FSB Washington before enemy casualties were known. The second night of fighting seemed to be an instant replay of the previous night?s action. The only difference was that a fresh NVA regiment hit from the opposite side. As mortars, rockets and RPG?s slashed into the FSB, 1LT Curtis McFarland of Midland, TX, readied his platoon. Again the sappers were stopped before they breached the perimeter. On both nights MAJ Joseph Hacia of Wethersfield, CT, ran the entire show. He gained the prospective of the situation by rapidly moving between his tactical operations center, tower and bunker line. "I?m really impressed with the men of Bravo Company," said Hacia, the battalion?s XO. "They performed to perfection and fought just as if they were at a turkey shoot. The real key to our success was early warning. Our electronic devices had them zeroed in several hours before they actually reached the perimeter. We knew they were coming and we were ready for them. The men on the bunker line knew exactly what to do and caught the sappers before they had a chance to do any damage." SP4 Thomas Belan of Pittsburgh was one of the first to spot the sappers as they attempted to crawl under the wire on the southwest side of the perimeter. Belan literally burned up the barrel on his machine gun. The quick-thinking of SFC Donald Neal of Columbus, GA, proved to be fatal for the unsuspecting sappers. Neal grabbed two grenade launchers and several bandoleers of ammo before heading for Belan?s position. Together they popped out the grenades and sent the sappers heading back for the nearby woodline. "They were all heroes," said CPT Larry B. Thomas of Camp Hill, PA, Thomas directed his Bravo Company while running back and forth on the bunker line determining where the areas of greatest threat were. "The men knew what to do before I had a chance to direct them. They performed beyond expectations, and I?m proud of every one of them." A last-ditch effort was made from the northeast section where the initial attack was fairly light. Machinegunner SP4 Richard C. Morroquine of Floresville, TX, made an immediate assessment of the situation and turned back the on-rushing enemy with his M-60. The desperate NVA answered his volley with a wave of rocket-propelled grenades. But Bravo had constructed their fortifications well. Many bunkers and fighting positions received direct hits and withstood them. "I saw them coming," said Morroquine. "This place was lit up like the Fourth of July and we could spot out targets as they came out of the woodline." Twelve enemy soldiers were riddled with machine gun bullets in front of Morroquine?s position, and several blood trails led off to the woodline. Battalion Commander LTC Robert Carmichael of Columbus, GA, had nothing but praise for his Regulars. "Everybody reacted to perfection to defeat the enemy force. we had one hell of a battle on our hands, and it directly involved the entire battalion. Our support elements provided everything we needed as fast as it could possibly be done. "Alpha, Charlie and Delta companies all got into the action at Crook by sweeping the surrounding woodlines after the battle. Even our recon platoon was out there clearing away the bodies and counting the captured weapons. I?m proud of every man in the unit and especially proud of those men in Bravo Company who pushed back two NVA regiments in two nights." After two nights of fierce fighting, the number of enemy killed on the battle- marked terrain around Crook reached 400. One GI died in the action and eight were wounded. Reprinted from the Tropic Lightning News, June 16, 1969 A Special Thanks to John Otte, B/3-22, 67-68
Hotlinks: http://www.22ndinfantry.org/vietnam.ht

The source for this information was Rise & Fall P:301; 22nd Infantry Society website

[ArtySgt]

I think the most memorable complementary remark made to me in Vietnam was by a young PFC upon returning inside the wire said, " you guys do good work ". We fired support for them when they walked into an L shaped ambush.

[BLUEHAWK]

ArtySgt -

God help us, you ALL do better than good work...

The aim must now be that your nation shall not call upon you to do so except for the most just and honorable purposes.

[ArtySgt]

BLUEHAWK, we aimed to please. I feel honored that we saved lives, that was my job. You will never know the stress of firing a mission with-in 25 meters of friendly troops about to be over-run, all the bubbles level, the correct powder charge, deflection and elevation, fuze setting and wispered prayer.

[BLUEHAWK]

Arty -
No, I will never know that stress... unless they decide to need us fogeys back on front lines. If things keep escalating like they are, we just might find ourselves there...and I want you and men like you to know deep in your heart that WE WILL BY GOD BE THERE. Maybe you can put us who have bad legs in charge of those bubbles and elevations or something useful, and we'll all pray together right by your side.

I'd rather die beside fighters like you guys than live under tyranny.

[PHO127]

Been on the receiving end of those 25 meter fire missions. I still have a piece of shrapnel that hit the ground about 8 inches away from me. I reached over to pick it up and it burned my fingers I jerked my hand away and it sliced my hand. It still has my burned fingerprints on the steel. I have had to call artillery in on top of me twice. Once with a SOG team and once with the 25th.

[BLUEHAWK]

Pho and Arty -

- What makes shrapnel so hot to the touch?

- To "call in artillery on top" of your location, is that done because the enemy is very nearby?

[PHO127]

either kidding or the most naive person on the face of the earth

[BLUEHAWK]

Not naive Pho, I simply don't know...that's why I asked.

In your earlier post it sounded like you tried to pick up a shrapnel from one of our own shells. So, that got me wondering. I had not known, I guess, what shrapnel actually is other than an exploded shell, but then I thought the shell is what gets ejected from the back of the artillery piece, so it must be a bullet that comes out from the shell, so it was hard to imagine that breaking into enough pieces to become shrapnel, seems like it'd just right through something it hit. I know grenades fragment into shrapnel pieces. Some of the vets were earlier mentioning fleshettes, for example, but I didn't have the nerve then (now I know why :-) to ask any of them how the darts come out of the bullet.

I've never been close to artillery firing, nor been the recipient.

Also, calling in artillery on one's own position I've only read about rarely, and most of the time it's been accidentally, "friendly fire". Seems to me that such a request would be extremely unusual and difficult to predict an outcome for, in combat.

But, maybe they shouldn't let non-combat vets onto this forum?

Seems to me though, from my experiences, that a lot of people think they know stuff, or believe they are expected to know, that they actually have almost zero understanding about. Better to ask and learn, than to act like I know something when I don't.

Since you people are around these parts, no harm in asking, so far anyway.

[PHO127]

Smartassed question. Calling artillery in on your position is done as a last resort. Kind of a "I'm Going to take as many of you with me as I can" position. And yes the shell fragment was from our own arty that I was calling in. In one case with SOG it was a run and gun extraction of my recon team, in the other it was because we were pinned by some machineguns in heavily fortified bunkers and we could not withdraw to get the wounded and kia out. I told everyone to get low and started to walk the arty in on us. Under arty rules of engagement you are required to notify the arty of a danger close mission within 600 meters, I don't recall that I ever started one that far out. Most were probably 300 meters out and walk them in. I didn't really start worrying until I had to get in under 100 meters. I wouldn't get 155s closer than 50 meters and 105s closer than 25 meters, This still puts you within the kill zone of the burst of each type. I did have a arty officer refuse to shoot 155s at 50 meters from me on a 105 replot once. I told him I would kill him if I got out alive and he tried to have me courts martialed. Early on the NVA found that because of the superior firepower we had, the way to engage was to close and do close in battle, most US forces were not willing to engage with tac air or arty that close . I on the other hand suscribed to the theory of Kill them all and let god sort them out and tried to make them pay a heavy toll every time they engaged us.

[BLUEHAWK]

Pho -
It really wasn't a smart-assed question at all, my other vet buddies always accuse me of being too dumb to utter military english because I did not have to kill people in service... that's all. I would have, if they'd ordered me to, just like you did, and so many countless others. I'm the type who never gets a joke the first time, so ain't likely to be effective in asking smart-assed questions either. Anyhow, I get teased all the time about my lack of understanding, so what I am trying to do is understand. So, again, I am grateful for your forebearance. Who knows, I may get to turn it around on those meatheads one of these days.

- What is a SOG?

- When you say you walked the arty (I now realize this means artillery, like in arty sgt!) in on yourself, do you mean from way out 300 yards beyond or beside you or from in back of you, fer crissakes!

- Did you have something like those Global Positioning dealies, or what in the hell else could possibly have helped the artillery gunner know where in the frick you guys factually were!

- Did my Air Force serve you guys well (TAC support etc.) in combat, in your opinion?

I can relate to your attitude in combat about let God sort out the parts, my instincts would probably have been the same or similar. I fail to see what other possible choice there could be.

I'm grateful they didn't bust you for making a good fight. Damn, your story reminds me of the movie "Good Morning Vietnam"...

Mike

[ArtySgt]

BLUEHAWK, sharpnel comes from the shell caseing, the fuze is set on SQ ( super quick ) sets off the shell when it hits the ground. I have had to fire two fire missions where the infantry commander called down fire on his own positon. This is the call of the infantry officer in the situation where he feels it necessary to do so. It is my understanding that such a call could not be refused by artillery. I have fired with-in 25 meters of our troops more times then I can remember. This is where Artillery shines.

[BLUEHAWK]

Arty -
So, in most rounds set on SQ the shell which explodes when it hits the ground makes shrapnel, which is the business part of sending that kind of artillery.

- These fleshettes that have been spoken of here in the post, I am guessing that they explode in the air (?) somehow, so that the darts are forced forward in flight? Or, does that kind of round also get active on impact?

- When infantry calls in fire on his position, for the good reasons he would have, how do his guys know the stuff is on its way? Can they hear it coming, wait for the impact, and then jump back up to fire again?

- Do you set a bunch of fuses all at once prior to firing volleys, or do you have to set them individually?

[DMZ-LT]

As a guy who has a;lso RAN into the wire - You done good work - Thank you again Arty SGT. ! Welcome Home to all . One week.

[sfga6970]

What is a SOG? MACV SOG was a special operations recon unit in Vietnam. I ran recon teams for Detachment CCS out of Ban Me Thuot in the Central Highlands. We also had CCC in Kontum and CCN in Da Nang. All the American team members were Special Forces and our other team members were either Montagnard tribesmen or Chinese Nungs. We performed "deep penetration" recon and other specialized operations. We loved the artillery and Air Force support when we could get it, but many times it was too far away to help.

When you call in fire support, you start out in front of your position and walk it in to your location and hope that you can call a cease fire before it arrives to you. If not, at least you are prepared for it's arrival and hope for the best. I have great faith in the artillery and would not want to go to the field without them backing me up. "Danger Close" is not fun.

[PHO127]

Ran recon teams from CCS (Command Control South) out of Quan Loi. RT Lighting, I operated a little more south than SFGA and ran Khmer mercenarys with my teams. When you are operating out beyond any real help you really love arty and tac air. We would use your boys for bomb runs and such we prefered marine or navy carrier pilots for close in work simply because they were trained to perform close in troop support. Will talk more later cause got to take the wife and sister in law to the mountains today. AS for how the arty knows where to shoot for you we used maps (no GPS then) and there is a specific set of information in the arty call for fire that tells them when, where and what type of ammo and fuse combo to shoot for you. Since I have to leave maybe colmurph and arty sgt can fill in the holes on call for fire. TTFN

[revwardoc]

I know what you mean when you ask combat related questions. Like you I was never in a combat situation and when I read threads from dogfacesand jarheads I get confused by their terminology. I once asked my brother-in-law, a gyrene grunt in 'Nam, a question and he gave me a ration of shit, virtually calling me a dumbass for not knowing. I then started talking about C-141s using my "language" and he just sat there with a blank expression because it was all "Greek" to him.

So, to all you shoot-'em-up guys out there, be a little patient with us who may not have heard the gunfire, but also served.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Dan -

My experience exactly, as well, obviously. Most of the guys on this post have been unusually patient with my little questions, and I am learning a whole lot, which in turn helps me understand a tiny bit (and explain to non-vets) what battle is like for the person in it, the person supporting the combat troops (like you and me)... and for those civilians who order us all into battle service, or who condone those orders from afar at polling places.

Your point about the "ration of s--t" we get at times is a key thing actually for me too. I believe a lot of vets simply nod their heads in professed understanding and agreement when a true combat vet speaks of his experiences in that certain way they do... I would call it the "far away look" which only they can ever know. My bet is that non-combatants (or most HQ staff) either know zero about it, or that what little they do know has come from the firing range and not from face to face killing under stress, blood and death.

Being a fogey, I sometimes get cut a little (very little) slack because I was on 123s and Goonies, which most combat troops can relate to, in an old-fashioned sense. Nothing in this world like having to fill a fuel tank laying on your belly on top of a 123 wing in minus 20 degree weather wind speed 40 mph in the middle of nowhere, eh Dan? We kept 'em flyin' and I am mighty proud of that.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga, arty and Pho -

Thanks again and again...

- What does Dmz Lt mean when he says "ran into the wire"?

- I wonder how many americans know that Chinese Nungs fought on your side in VN? I had never once heard that before, in 40 years of paying attention.

- Which member of an artillery gunnery team actually sets the fuse combo?

Mike

[ArtySgt]

BLUEHAWK, the fuze is set be whom ever is working the ammo for the fire mission, it is checked by the section chief and loaded. The same person also " cuts " powder charges of which there are seven in a 105mm canister.
I only used anti-personnal direct fire rounds on one occasion, thank God. Tell you what I remember, the fuze of a Beehive round was set on " Muzzle ". Thats how we fired them, it is thin skinned round that has a charge to break the shell casing and another at the rear to drive the flushettes out into a wide fan directly in front of the gun. The round is indiscriminate, it will kill any one standing in front of the gun so our Infantry security had to be warned, this was done by screaming BEEHIVE. You were safe down in a fox hole, in our situation there were almost no Infantry left out in front of us, those there were killed by the enemy troops. Those VC/NVA got the shock of their lives when those rounds went off, and so did most of us who had never trained on nor fired one before. I hope this answers most of what you asked about.


Frank M

[ArtySgt]

DMZ-LT, Thanks for the kind remarks, really do appreciate it.