PysOps during the Revolution

[usmcsgt65]

Presently reading Jeff Sahara 2nd vol. about the Revolution. He writes that Cornwallis told his Hessian allies that the Americans liked to scalp their enemy dead and eat their flesh. Cornwallis then leaked to the Americans that the Hessians not only killed the men they faced, but would kill the women and children, they found around the battlefield. It seems he was attempting to make the Hessians more efficient killers.

[BLUEHAWK]

Sarge -
One wonders, thinking about how word got around in those olden times, so slowly, face to face or newspapers I suppose. Must've been pretty effective psyops when a man heard some of that from his buddy across the field plow!

[usmcsgt65]

Bluehawk, remember the civilains were largely left alone in those days. So, a conservation hear here or there always seems to reach the targeted group. Also, the British bought from American farmers much of their food (paid in gold of course, not that paper money crap).

[BLUEHAWK]

Yes, right you are... one imagines, from experiences of my own on remote ranches, how word DOES travel rather quickly, even when it is little more than cynical propaganda I should guess?

So, a psyops effort would tend to have easy access in a way at lesser scale but equally as effective as anything done today, no? All it would take is one willing or amiable listener for an errant or well-formed message to get repeated many times and become THE word.

[revwardoc]

PsysOps was used quite extensively during the Rev War by all the combatants. When George Rogers Clark took Cahokia, Kaskaskia and Vincennes with an undermanned force, he marched them back and forth in front of the stockades carrying different flags making it look like he had a much larger force. The ruse worked quite well as he captured all three with nary a shot being fired, though he had to re-capture Vincennes by force a few months after he intially took it.

Cornwallis didn't have to make up stories about Hessian ferocity. During the fighting in New York, the Hessians, some of the best professional soldiers in the world, looked down upon American troops as so much rabble, unworthy of an even chance in a fight. Subsequently they went out of their way to avoid taking prisoners and bayoneted many surrendering and wounded men to death. It was because of incidents like that, the men of the New Hampshire regiments decided it was time for some payback during the battle of Bennington.

While the regular soldiers of the British army, for the most part, left civilians alone, the same couldn't be said for the American Legions commanded by Banastre Tarleton, Patrick Ferguson, and Benedict Arnold. Those American Loyalists used the excuse of a red (or green) coat to loot, rape, and plunder their patriot neighbors. Of course the same can be said for the patriots themselves. While the war was fought primarily by the armies, there was quite an active querilla campaign primarily in the south and out west (west, as in, the Illinois/Kentucky/Ohio territories). Out there it can be debated that the white Americans were just as savage as the Indians and were more than willing to answer "an eye for an eye". Also, they did pay loyalists for supplies but simply confiscated what they wanted from suspected or known patriots.

There's a great story about how Washington, during the siege of Boston, found out through his very extensive spy network that "Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne" had written a comedy about Washington that was to be performed on a night in February, 1776. Shortly after the play started, Washington sent a regiment to attack Dorchester Heights with nothing more in mind than harrassing the Brits. When the firing started, a British grenadier sergeant on guard outside the theater, rushed down the center ailse, jumped up on the stage and shouted, "Washington is attacking the Heights!" The audience roared in laughter thinking it was part of the play, so the frustrated sergeant ran back, threw open the doors so that everyone could hear the guns. Now alarmed, the drummers were ordered to sound assembly and the soldiers were startled to see their officers running up to them still wearing their costumes from the play, some of them in ladies' dresses! The attack was short-lived and its said that Washington just sat in his chair with a wry smile on his face.

[MORTARDUDE]

Was anything in the Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot" based on actual events ? Particularly the part where the colonists were burned alive in the locked church. The actor who played Tarleton was one of the meanest SOBs I have seen in a movie. Thanks.

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Yeah Dan & Sarge!

What Larry said...

Whaddya think?

[revwardoc]

<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="2104371070">No, there were no intentional church burnings by either side during the Rev War, though there were plenty of atrocities to go around.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="2104371070">As for the historical accuracy of "The Patriot", you've got to be kidding! My wife and I saw it at the theater and laughed at the inaccuracies throughout the movie. A guy sitting next to me said, "Excuse me. This isn't a comedy!" To a re-enactor, it was. For example, the artillery used in the final battle scene (which was VERY loosely based on the Battle of Cowpens) were 12 pounder siege pieces; field artillery were 1-3 pounders, 6 pounders at max. The Frenchman's uniform in the final battle, well, I portray an ex-grenadier/now-surgeonin the 85eme Regiment de Saintonge andnone of my fellowregiment members could figure out which regiment he was representing. I believe Mel calledit the "something-or-other Regiment of Foot" but they didn't use that designation in the French army. Again in the final battle, there's no way either army would allow the other to march so close without firing at it. Theywere, at best, 30 yards apart. Back then they started firing at 100 yards. If you were to let them get that close, they'd rush you with bayonets and save their powder. Another scene that shocked us was when he left the slave village after his son's wedding; his sister-in-law was virtually naked by 18th century standards and no self-respecting, slave-owning white woman at that period would live with even escaped slaves. And did you hear the music from the wedding? It was played on steel drums!! I could go on andon but I think you get the idea.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="2104371070">The guy who played Tarleton did a good job, except that Tarleton was only about 25 at the end of the war. He was a vicious SOB who bragged that he killed more men and ravaged more women than any officer in the British army. Quite the claim to fame. Unlike "Tavington", he survived the war, was knighted and eventually promoted to general and served as an MP (Member of Parliament). His uniform coat during the Rev War was NOT red and green, but solid green. He was, after all, a dragoon and lead American loyalists, not British troops. I've attached a portrait of him painted during the war, note the plumed leather helmet.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="2104371070">http://community.webshots.com/s/image3/1/21/0/15412100sBjzFGGzjA_ph.jpg</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="2104371070">As a melodramatic Hollywood movie, it was pretty good. There was an inspirational story line, a heroic, sypathetic main figure, a love interest, some light comedy and a good-guys-beat-the-bad-guys theme. As history, fuhgedaboutit!!</LABEL>

[Keith_Hixson]

A True Crazy (Sociopath) in a military uniform. If he had more power, he'd done more damage. Even the Britished feared him.
A real sicko.

Keith

[MORTARDUDE]

Dan G :

Thanks for the info ! Super !! Was there anything about the movie you liked...be gentle..LOL.

Larry

[revwardoc]

<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="1828126993">Like I said, it was at least entertaining, the clothing was very good (except for some of the uniforms) and the portrayal of life in the rural south was also OK except that everyone was just too damned clean and had perfect teeth. One great special effect they used was the cannonball coming straight at "you" and they guy who lost a leg to a cannonball. They used a real-life amputee for that. They fitted him with a temporary prothesis loaded with blood packs and hooked it up to an inertia reel that snapped it off. COOL!</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="1828126993">Speaking of cannonballs, during the initial artillery bombardment of Breed's Hill, which was very ineffective, there was an incident where a lucky shot took the head off a militiaman causing much consternation and fear in the rest of the men building the battlements. Col. William Prescott, commander of the 9th Massachusetts Regiment, in order to calm the men, began walking back and forth on top of the battlements telling the men that it was a "million-to-one-shot" and couldn't happen again. Fortunately for him , it didn't, but, since the Americans had a severe shortage of cannonballs, a bounty was put on them which every eager farmboy wanted to collect. Since the British ships in the harbor couldn't elevate their guns to the proper height, the shots literally bounced uphill towards the American position. One man made the fatal decision to "catch" one on the bounce. When his leg went along with the bouncing ball, the others felt it better to wait until the ball stopped rolling. A tough lesson.</LABEL>

[BLUEHAWK]

Okay guys -
Here's another approach to the topic which really really has been on my mind a long while...

>Given that historical accuracy (e.g. a Dragoon's garment being green and not something else) IS utterly accessible to all who find themselves responsible for cinematic continuity, then why in hell do they NOT attend to it!

> Has there EVER been a military film which DOES faithfully portray everything? If so, which one(s)?

Hmmmmmmm?

[Desdichado]

Same reason you see M48s in WW2 movies instead of Shermans, I guess - it's cheaper to use what you got than scrounge up what you don't. Movies are supposed to be entertainment, not history. They are under no compulsion to portray things accurately, or even to tell a true story.

Until they do away with musical soundtracks and introduce "smell-o-vision", there will never be a realistic war movie anyway - which is just fine by me.

I threw fruit at my television when I saw the Patriot. It's so typically "Mel" to rewrite history upside down. The southern war was brutal on both sides. Murders, rapes, tarring and feathering (sounds funny, but I bet it was ghastly) were common on both sides. Not everybody wanted to be free of England, probably less than half, especially in the South. So much for democratic principles.

As for psy-war, isn't it funny that revolutionaries are called "Patriots"? They had spin doctors even then...

[MORTARDUDE]

"Kelly's Heroes" ( Clint Eastwood ) seemed to be accurate as far as gear..

Larry

[revwardoc]

<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="223520788">Several years ago there was a movie called "Sweet Liberty" starring Alan Alda, Michelle Pfeiferand Michael Caine. Alda protrayed a college professor who wrote a book about the Battle of Cowpens that was to be made into a movie, Caine was to play the role of Banastre Tarleton and I forget Pfeifer's role. The producers and director of the movie decided to re-make it into a comedy, totally ruining the book and disallusioning the local population who re-enacted the battle on an annual basis. They had Caine wearing a typical red Brit uniform because they figured the average American would be confused if he didn't. They also planned to have the Brits win the battle!In the end, Alda and the locals turned the tables on them.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="223520788">I know several people who were some of the nameless rabble in "The Patriot" and they were shocked to actually be taking part in what was essentially "Sweet Liberty". No matter how many times they tried to tell the director, a German national by the way, that what he was doing was historically inaccurate he said that the average American would be confused if he didn't make that way and if they didn't like it, they could leave!! Sometimes life and the arts are the same thing.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="223520788">I took part in a PBS documentary called "The Man Who Wouldn't Be King". It's about George Washington's early military life and his actions during the French and Indian War. There was a scene where we (the Virginia militia) captured some Frenchmen and the director noticed some vines growing nearby and told us he would film us cutting them and using them to tie up the prisoners. We refused to do it telling him that they would have used rawhide thongs. After debating with us for several minutes he tried to outfox us saying that we'd have to use the vines since it would take too long to procure and leather thongs. With that we all pulled our leather thongs from out of our haversacks. The director just stared at us then asked why we carried them. We answered, "Because THEY did!". He walked away muttering about how he hated re-enactors, but we did it our way.</LABEL>

<LABEL SessionId="223520788">Des; tarring and feather may seem silly but it was a painfulpunishment. The tar was boiling hot and was poured over a naked victim resulting in severe burns. Removing the tar would literally tear the flesh away leading to a sometimes fatal infection.</LABEL>

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -
Interesting, verrrrrrrry interesting...

So, they hate re-enactors, and they do not comprehend the real deal guys either one... and everybody (every kid like I was, FASCINATED by military films and believing every damn image I saw literally) who sees such films and has not seen the elephant has no choice but to accept the validity of what they are witnessing, and... crap, I could go on forever.

Thanks to you and Des for shedding some light... maybe when I get up to Michigan to polish off my museum career this month I'll get to see about joining up with some Civil War re-enactors... don't think they'll have much of a Reb side up there though...

[MORTARDUDE]

Mike :

I noticed the reference to Michigan in your newsletter. I thought the lady was moving ? Are you also ?

larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Hi Larry!

No, I'll be going there end of next week, then my Lady Carol will follow when I have located her a home suitable to her needs. It will be probably my last career move... 33 years is a long time, but a truly wonderful post and place. You have the address and web, I believe.

I'll keep you informed via ARTHROBS... thanks for asking. I'll be out of touch on PF for some time after next Thursday, but only temporarily.

[Jake]

I don't think that the filmgoing audience would watch a war movie that was completely accurate. It's the old adage of war being mostly boredom with moments of sheer terror. You have to slog through the mud to get to that sheer terror, and they don't want to do that. It's not the "adreneline rush" they spent their $$$ for. So we see Hollywood trying to "bridge the gaps," making major battles every day occurances, generals who look and act like George C. Scott in Patton, cargo airplanes (pre C-5) with second levels where people fight to the death, Panzers that loomed larger than a house, soldiers that are always put together like Arnold, and the quietest weapons and explosions that weapons could ever make so as not to interfere with the dialog.

But maybe in truth you just can't recreate war in a movie. Reenactors come closest, for sure...they know the smell of the gunpowder the heft of a sword. But what movie could ever capture the essence of war? It's like the smell of Vietnam. People who've been there during the war might know what I'm talking about. I can't describe it. You can't see it. But whenever I watch a movie about Vietnam, I smell it.

Can't put that on film.

Jake

[BLUEHAWK]

How in hell do you keep pickin' out these old threads in the way you do Jake?

[Desdichado]

But maybe in truth you just can't recreate war in a movie. Reenactors come closest, for sure...they know the smell of the gunpowder the heft of a sword.

I used to think so until I met some.

I break it down like this:

95% posers who don't know anything. Re-enacting is less dangerous than riding a motorcycle to get away from the wife for a weekend; and they get to shoot guns.
3% mildly interesting types sadly handicapped by thick glasses and IT careers.
1% psychopaths who think they're really there, or at least want to be. Genuine posssibility they'll start loading live shot some day.
1% people who are interested in the period, and want to get a sense of what if was like to live in it.

[BLUEHAWK]

I believe they also, perhaps inadvertently sometimes, serve the useful purpose of helping preserve battlefields and museums... simply by calling attention to themselves.

[revwardoc]

OK, now you've struck a nerve! As an active Rev War re-enactor I can safely tell you that the average re-enactor is not what you think. For one thing we are constantly doing research on our chosen era and even the children could tell you a thing or two about Revolutionary America on subjects ranging from military tactics to home life to social classes to the causes of the Revolution, etc. Personally, my portrayalis that of a regimental surgeon (after 15 years of portraying a soldier) so I have read well over a dozen 18th century medical journals and have acquired some authentic and reproduction tools of the craft. In fact, with all my research and equipment, I feel I could amputate your arm or leg and you just may live through the procedure.

Lets talk about danger, and it is a dangerous hobby. We use real guns and real gunpowder as well as real edged weapons. While safety is our upmost concern, bad things do happen. I once got a bayonet in the ribs (and several stitches) in an attempt atrealistic hand-to-hand combatthat got all too real. On another occaision a runaway horse literally leaped over me as I played "dead". We had an artillerist who lost three fingers of his right hand when the load went off prematurely.

As far as individual lifestyles, we've got an active duty Army Colonel (West Point '76), a couple of doctors, some nurses, an MIT research scientist, several people who own their own businesses, two company presidents, several teachers as well as regular "joes". And, yeah, some computer geeks. But one thing we all share is our love of the history of the American Revolution. We eat and sleep in camp under 18th century conditions (which means no bathing, so by the end of the weekend you can definitely smell us a mile away). And many of us have taken part in muzzle loader shooting competions.

You must be talking about Civil War re-enactors. Now those guys are weird!

[BLUEHAWK]

Well Des, there ya have it from the horse's mouth... my eldest daughter once admonished me, "DAD! Honor my perceptions!"... I said, "I'm tryin' honey..."

Didn't get me anywhere at all.

[revwardoc]

Hawk,

At least you didn't say, "...from the horse's ass!"

[BLUEHAWK]

Nope, wouldn't have said such a thing to or from either party.

[Desdichado]

Didn't mean to offend anyone.

If it's your thing, do it. I don't agree with it, but you don't need my permission. ;)

[BLUEHAWK]

No offense taken Des... none at all.

I guess part os seeing the Elephant depends on where one is standing, so I've been told :-)

[revwardoc]

Des,

What Bluehawk said! ;-)