M-16 to be replaced by M-4

[Keith_Hixson]

Just read that the M-16 will be replaced by the M-4.
From what I read the M-4 is basically a carbine version of the M-16. I wonder if this is a good move? According to the article it will cut down on its killing distance by 100 yds. Though it will be easier to handle in tight confinements. Yet soldiers complain about its lack of killing power. I believe if you are going to change why not go with a completely new design and add some fire power with it.

Keith

[philly]

7.62 cal. would be nice..

[ArtySgt]

KEITH, I usually visit a gun shop near Ft. Lee, Va. Lot of young soldiers come in and hang around, shoot the breeze and such. I was surprised at the number who expressed little faith in the M-16 round. Most want the AK-47 in 7.62 x 39 round to go into combat with, I have always thought shot placement was more important then bullet mass at the shorter ranges. Army did'nt teach me that, the Police PPC course did.

[Seascamp]

During the VN War, our small craft crews and boarding parties had the CAR 15 and the over watch guy had a 12 ga. Remington trench pump shotgun. Backing them up was rail or deck mounted M2 50 cals and M60s. Way up on the 04 deck there were sharp shooters with M14?s. Anyway, I assume the CAR 15 has similar ballistic characteristics to the new M4. I didn?t hear anyone swearing by the CAR 15 as great stuff and given their choice they would have carried the .45 semi auto pistol and so stated, vehemently. But the rational was that a CAR 15 round would fragment in close quarters and a .45 round would bounce around and probably hit the shooter.
During my competitive shooting days, I took a military .223 casing, opened it up to 7mm, put in a hot rod propellant load and a boat tail 7mm projectile. The load was called a 7mm TCU. This was pistol competition and the 7mm TCU was flat and fast, just the right stuff. My pistol was a Thompson Contender.
Anyway, given all that, I can see why a Troop would prefer an AK 47 round.

Scamp

[Keith_Hixson]

It seems like a dumb mistake to go the route of M-4. I also felt the M-16 lacked fire power to begin with. The M-14 probably needed some improvements in some areas but it had good fire power and accurracy. I would think something similar to the AK 47 would be more of an improvement over the M-16.

Keith

[ArtySgt]

Keith, so do a lot of other people in the service right now ! But I still think shot placement is very important. Once saw a State Trooper shoot a guy with a .45 automatic, guy went down with a shot in the belly at close range, dropped his knife but jumped right back and attacked the trooper again. Then it became a fight to keep the guy from getting the Troopers gun away from him. If I had not seem this with my own eyes, I would not believe it.

[Keith_Hixson]

After a gut shot with a 30-06. Placement important. (Wasn't my gut shot!) But, knock down power can be very important also.

My hunting partner shot a nice mule deer buck at over 500 yds on a very lucky shot. The bullet didn't even expand, it was just under the skin next to the rib bone. If the buck hadn't run toward him, he'd never got that deer. That was with a 30-06. Even a 30-06 has limited killing abilility after 500 - 600 yds. Imagine what a .223 does after 500 - 600, very little, inspite of the hype.

Keith

[philly]

Arty,

The guy that was shot with a .45 cal, was he under the influence of PCP?

Keith,

I'm still learning about various weapons of interest to me. I'm by far no expert on any weapons. So, I'm just going to ask the questions. :) I was wondering if you feel we need more stopping power, such as, the 7.62 round because of the type of enemy we are fighting today?(terrorists)

I recall someone telling me the .223 was an excellent round for shooting during our past fought wars. His reasoning behind it was that the .223 often times wounded the soldier instead of killing him requiring an additional two soldiers to carry him off the battlefield. I suppose it wouldn't apply to the type of people we are fighting today because they don't seem to stop for their wounded on the battlefield, correct? :r: Heck, they tape bombs to their chests and send them to checkpoints to kill our kids. :d: :d:

[usmcsgt65]

Stopping power was the reason for bigger and better. Vietnam caused a re-thinking because of the concept search by fire and the lack of a good field of vision in the jungle. From Somilia to Iraq, the idea was volume of fire and weight. Anyway that is my 7.62 worth.

[Keith_Hixson]

Sarge,

You said it correctly. The .223 M-16 wasn't built for long open spaces of desert warfare. A infantry weapon with 7.62 Nato has a great deal more knock down power at longer distances. It also has more knock down power at closer distance. Its just a better cartridge for warfare. In other words as a hunter, you can hunt deer with a .223 and do okay but when you move up to large animals like elk and bear you want 7.62 Nato or larger. If hunters know how to upgrade when the distances get longer, and the animal is bigger, you'd think the pentagon would use the same common sense.

7.62 Nato = about 2500 lbs of muzzel energy.
.223 Nato = about 1250 lbs of muzzel energy.

7.62 Nato uses a 150 - 160 grain slug.
.223 Nato uses a 69 grain slug.

Philly, I hope this answers some questions. The .223 might be good in the jungle but it doesn't get the job done in desert.

Keith

[Doc.2/47]

Keith-

I have no disagreement with what you've said, there can be little doubt that the 7.62 NATO (M-14)is the better long range round,but the 7.62X39 (AK47,SKS,etc.)is a whole 'nother critter entirely.Power wise it's more similar to the old 30-30 which isn't considered a long range round.The 7.62X39 shoots a little flatter than the 30-30 because it uses lighter (139 Gr.,if memory serves) pointed bullets than the 30-30 which uses 150-170Gr. flatnosed bullets but it would still be hard to consider it a long range round-especially fired from the weapons that it's used in which are noted for reliability not accuracy.For sniper weapons Russia and China use their older 7.62X54 round which is comparable with the 7.62 NATO if slightly less powerful.

The 5.56mm out of the M-16 is not very powerful but it does shoot flat and the M-16 is capeable of much better accuacy than an SKS or AK.In short,it seems to me that a M-16 has 2-3 times the effective range of the AK or SKS.I also strongly suspect that the 5.56mm with it's high velosity is much more likely to penetrate body armor.Just my thoughts.

[ArtySgt]

Philly, I know the guy was on something but can't recalled exactly what, but he lived. Took three of us to get a set of cuffs on him and I knew I'd been in a fight.
Doc. 2/47 You have excellent points, for long ranges the former Soviet forces used the SVD and ROM 97 in 7.62 X 54 caliber. They didnot mean for the AK-47-SKS to go much beyond 300 meters.

[philly]

Thanks Keith. You have answered my questions.



Arty,

I thought he must have been on some type of drug. I don't think too many people could handle a shot in the gut like that.

I've heard of similar stories in the Bay Area. I'm told some of these people can become as strong as 5-10 men. I'm sure for LEO's, coming across someone like that would be frightening. ...glad you're fine..

[colmurph]

I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Charlie Beckwith. He was the first Commander of Delta. He took a .51 caliber (12.5mm) chicom MG bullet in the gut (lost most of his stomach) and didn't pass out. He spent a couple of months in the hospital then took over the Ranger School as Commandant. People have been hit multiple times with the old .45 ACP round and were still on their feet. It all depends on what it hits. Generally you need it to hit a bone to put somebody down for keeps.

[locksly]

The new rifle has an adjustible stock so the short women can hold it properly they cant shoot a mans rifle.

[Keith_Hixson]

Probably a good idea. However, I have a Hunting Partner's wife that shoots a "man's deer rifle" 30-06 and does very well. My sister in law is 5' 1" and shoots a 30-06 also. She almost always gets her deer even though she only weighs 100 lbs. Women could shoot the larger cartridge such as a .308 if they wanted to be in the army. I do agree that the .223 doesn't kick near as much as the .308. But for the safety of all, the women should make the adjustment to a larger cartridge. To go to the M-4 for the sake women only would be a critical mistake. Its war not a backyard game. I hope for the sake of our troops the military upgrades to something similiar to the AK 47.

Col Murphy,

I treated a police officer shot with a .357 mag. It went through his upper shoulder. Didn't hit a bone, just missed the clavicle. He was back to work in two days. Sore shoulder but other wise okay. No matter the power, if you don't hit something solid and cause damage, power means nothing. 3 or 4 inches lower he'd been dead. He didn't like wearing a vest. He started wearing a vest after that. One lucky man.

Keith

[ArtySgt]

Keith_Hixson, you have an excellent point, you've got to get a good solid hit to put a guy down. If he's close, aim for the vitals.

[Andy]

Just noticed this thread and thought that I?d throw in my 7.62 cents in too.

How do we give our 5.56mm more stopping power? Remember machine gun ammo was 4 to 1, ball-tracer? Why not have 4 of 5 rounds be hollow points, lots more stopping power. The point was made that a hunter might use different weapons for different targets which is very true but different ammunition is also quite effective.

I had a very low opinion of the M-16 which is why I would usually be found carrying an M-60 or sitting behind my wonderful Ma Duce. However the weapon is supposed to be better now than it was back then. It seems the logic behind issuing a 5.56 to the troops was that the weapon and it?s ammo were lighter, so the soldier could carry more rounds. (Running out of ammo in a gun fight is always very embarrassing.) Yes, we are supposed to keep logistics as simple as possible but maybe have a couple M-14 type weapons per platoon as sort of an in-house sniper would work.

Does anyone know what the average distance between cop Vs. bad guy is when a person is actually shot? The answer: 7 feet. As you know our Army is being used more and more as ?SWAT? teams, Baghdad as an example. I know Vietnam was not the typical war however except for snipers it seemed most of the infantry engagements were at pretty close range. Hell I was wounded twice because someone threw something, they didn?t shoot anything. Well, if they did shoot they missed. The point is bringing back an M-14 type weapon as stand issue probably wouldn?t be the best idea.

Stay healthy,
Andy
PS: Col. I never heard about the guy who was shot with a .51 and lived, even stayed in the service. A .45 sure but a .51! One very lucky man.

[Doc.2/47]

I'll tell you right up front that you aren't going to believe this.I wouldn't.

In early '69 I was in training at Letterman Gen. Hosp.,S.F.As part of that training we rotated to diferent areas of the hosp. to train and preform various duties as assigned.Normally stayed 1-3wks. per area depending on the area.During this period I was assigned to a post surgical ward and as part of the training I was reading through the medical charts of each patient on the ward tracking the type of surgery(ies) they had had;weather there had been problems in the O.R.;post surgical course;etc.
Ran up on a really fat chart belonging to a warrent officer who had sustained a bullet wound to the head well over a year before.According to the chart this man had taken a .51Cal. through the head(entered through the temple on one side and exited through the temple on the other side takeing off most of the top of the ear).
I had been working night(11pm-7am)shift and after spending every free moment during the night reading this man's chart I HAD to talk to the man before leaveing in the morning.He was scheduled to go home that day.He was very nice and let me examine his head and he did indeed have aprox. half-dollar sized well healed scars in the areas noted and was missing the top half of his ear.He told me that he remembered leaveing on the mission but that his next memory was of a time several months later.He stated some "pretty bad memory problems" but otherwise (able to move,hear,see,think)he said he was just fine except that his ear bothered him some.

Told you you weren't gonna belive it.

[Andy]

I?ve been to too many autopsy?s to possibly believe a guy got a .51 in the temple and lived. It?s amazing how many suicides are small cal hand gun round to the head (most popular with men). Also with all the head shots seen in Vietnam, this story is too much for an old cop to swallow.

That said, I have seen things that could not have happened. Doc, like You said, your not going to believe this.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Keith_Hixson]

AS medic to have a .50 cal bullet go straight through the head and live is nearly impossible. However I treated a guy who had been shot about an inch and half above his eye brow. The bullet had turned up followed his skull and came out of the top of his head. He lived! Bullets take strange paths. But, I saw this guy with a piece of rebar going through his skull, saw it on television a month or so ago. In the front and out the back. Strange things do happen, he lived and was doing well. I treated too many people and seen a few too many autopsy's but I also know strange miracles happen. Weird isn't it!

Keith


P.S. Treated three head wounds to the head as a civilian medic. All but one was covered by a sheet.

[ArtySgt]

All the head wounds I saw on duty lead to that persons death. Thats my experience, but as most of you have pointed out. Some strange things happen in life.

[revwardoc]

I have the Time-Life series of books on Vietnam and there's an X-ray photo of a VNA soldier who was hit with a mortar round that entered his body between the collarbone and the scapula, then lodged between his ribcage and the skin, AND IT WAS STILL LIVE! They got a couple of doctors and nurses to volunteer to remove it, built a sandbag barrier around them and with the aid of ordinance engineers, removed the mortar round and saved the soldier's life. I don't remember what happened to the soldier, I'd have to look that one up, but the photo was incredible.

[Cutaway]

A similar incident in Afghanistan/Iraq? happened when medics removed an RPG shell from a soldier, Ill try n find it soon.

About the M4 replacing the M16, The US Army wouldnt have a rifle anymore as the M4 is a carbine.