Does all of military use JP-8 instead of JP-5 jet fuel?

[Margaret Diann]

I heard that there was a test on JP-5 done by the Navy in about 1994. Anyone know how I could get a copy of it?

I don't understand why JP-3, JP-4 (http://www.valdezlink.com/jp4.htm), JP-5 and JP-6 are labeled as pesticides by EPA. What did they put in them that is not in JP-8?

In using JP-8 it is supposed to not allow ice build up; and also be a fuel that can be used for all military fuel needs. (That's what a jet fuel refinery man told me, anyway.)

I suggest to you that troops in Iraq are still having some soldiers use jet fuel to burn up the 'out-house' stuff, and if it is one of the types labeled as pesticide ... those soldiers are unnecessarily exposed to harm (a gulf war syndrome 'exposure')?

How it was done in Gulf War 1 (http://www.valdezlink.com/gw_jetfuel.htm)

[David]

We used either JP-4 or 5 in our Hummers on many occasions in the Gulf. We used "MOGAS" in our equipment to heat water and some warming stoves. No idea what "MOGAS" is but that's what it was called. Lastly we used diesel to burn the crappers clean.


Something I forgot to add; We also burned trash with MOGAS and diesel. A cup of MOGAS to get it started and diesel to keep it going.

[Margaret Diann]

That's very interesting. It is a term referring to severe service metal seated ball valves

But for what we are interested in: power resources or in Narrower Terms - aviation fuels, captured fuel, diesel fuel marine, fossil fuels, motor gasoline, nuclear fuels, synthetic fuel,

Related Terms: fuel research, fuel storage, supply class III

Another says, "It's a contraction for autoMOtive gasoline - mogas; so it's just the regular gas you put in your car. The term has only been in circulation since the 1980's"

Here is a history of US Navy patapsco gasoline tankers AOG (http://aog.ussnoxubee.com/vietnam.html): AOG AVGAS, MOGAS & JET FUEL (Vietnam era)

In 1996-1998 there was a high performance Mogas fuel system developed for racing cars using natural gas: a clean-burning fuel, mild to the engines, which helps reduce engine wear and maintenance. NG also has superior safety factors and offers significant fuel cost savings.

Civil Aviation Authority regulatory position on the use of MOGAS and AVGAS as of 31 January 2001 (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/general_aviation/?page=630)

Do you think it was something experimental? Or an older type fuel the military refers to as MOGAS during 1990-1991?

If you used diesel for the 'out-house' burn-up, that would seem to be safer than JP-5

Probably not relevant, but on this Navy fact sheet site (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-tak3.html), it states on cargo capacity of a Maritime Prepositioning Ship: JP-5 bbls, 20,290; DF-2 bbls, 12,355; Mogas bbls, 3,717

[colmurph]

JP-4 and JP-5 are just different grades of Diesel Fuel. Not pesticides. They were mixed with agent orange during the Vietnam War to give the DEFOLIANT some stickyness to adhere to the plants. I was not aware that it was used as a pesticide except to spray standing water to kill mosquitos. (By sufficating the Mosquito Larvae).

[David]

MOGAS is exceptionally volatile. It was very tricky business to get the right drip rate on the equipment that used the stuff and no one really wanted to have that detail.

We had immersion heaters powered by MOGAS on the showers of our first couple of sites. In a rather humorous incident one of our nco's climbed up one night to light them and was blown off of the top of the showers by a small explosion. His eyebrows and front hair line were gone but aside from that he was ok. We never could get him to go up on the showers again after that hehehe :D


Here is some procedureal data for the handling of MOGAS were I live.

MOGAS. MOGAS is not stored at FISC Point Loma and must be delivered by commercial tank truck. MOGAS deliveries can be conducted at La Playa fuel pier or Naval Station piers with proper safety precautions. Delivery at other military berths in San Diego requires a 500 foot safety arc and is stringently monitored by the Federal Fire Department, NAVSTA Safety, and FISC Fuel Department personnel. Only under extraordinary circumstances will the North Islands berth M, N, O, and P be considered to transfer MOGAS. Ships should consult their ISIC prior to loading or off-loading MOGAS. In particular, amphibious ships should consult with PHIBRON-9. Most encourage ships returning from deployment to off-load MOGAS prior to entering CONUS.

It's fun stuff :cl:

[Margaret Diann]

I was surprised, too, and wouldn't have even looked into it except a Navy man with gulf war type syndrome symptoms from mid 1980s said it was the only thing he kept coming back to: JP-5 jet fuel. I looked into it & thought he made sense. On this sample MSDS for JP-5 (http://www.cmenergy.com/msds/A0052-JP-5%20(Turbine%20Fuel).rtf) I note some warnings that would be on 2-butoxyethanol AND ethylene oxide. Makes me wonder whether or not this is where Corexit 9527 (http://www.valdezlink.com/corexit.htm)'s military use was (?) It is somewhere, by the way; and wherever it is, it is DANGEROUS! Not SAFE to be anywhere close to.

These are the jet fuels labeled as pesticide by EPA:
(063515 ) CAS REG. NO. 94114-58-6
(063515 ) FUELS, JET, JP-3
(063515 ) FUELS, JET, JP-4
(063515 ) FUELS, JET, JP-5
(063515 ) JET FUEL
(063515 ) JET FUELS, JP-4
(063515 ) JET FUELS, JP-5
(063515 ) JET FUELS, JP-6
(063515 ) JP-5 JET FUEL
(063515 ) JP-6 JET FUEL
(063515 ) NAVY FUELS JP-5
(063515 ) NAVY FUELS JP-5, PETROLEUM DERIVED
(063515 ) NCI-C54784

AND I was VERY surprised to find that 2-butoxyethanol and 2(2-butoxyethanol) (http://www.valdezlink.com/same.htm) were listed by EPA as pesticides; that EPA included them in their own testing of pesticides for endocrine disruption (which by the way, is what 2-butoxyethanol does do)

It is, what I believe, is happening with gulf war vets: the headaches would represent endocrine disruption http://www.valdezlink.com/complete.htm#endocrine

I was also surprised to find Lysol Tub 'n Tile (http://www.valdezlink.com/only_chemical.htm) has a registered EPA pesticide number. It has 6% of product as diethylene glycol monobutyl ether aka 2-(2-butoxyethanol)

There are lots of products to WATCH OUT (http://www.valdezlink.com/watch_out.htm) for

[Seascamp]

Good old purple pipe JP-5. We used JP-5 for our helicopter and the fuel pipe to the helo deck ran just above my bunk. Pipes are color coded and labeled on a USN ship and purple was for JP-5. Count my blessings as LP or HP steam pipes clanged, rattled, vibrated and made loud and scary weird sounds 24/7. Nuf to make a person crazy after a while.

Scamp

[SparrowHawk62]

Well, I heard the sea story that Grapes became Grapes because of the Color of the Fuel they pumped. Since I played ABF a few times I always wanted to find out a bit more about this nasty smelling stuff. Seems there may be some truth to this story. There is more info out there if you might want it. Like the fact that there are diffrent grades of avgas and there is leaded, low leaded and non leaded.

Avgas 115/145: (numbers are the octane rateing) this product was developed for high performance piston aircraft engines used in world war II and in the Korean war. It's color is Purple.

Avgas is gasoline fuel for reciprocating piston engine aircraft and
is not to be confused with jet fuel. As with all gasolines, avgas is
very volatile and is extremely flammable at normal operating
temperatures. Procedures and equipment for safe handling of this
product must therefore be of the highest order.

JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of
corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the
requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S GradeJP-4. JP-4 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-88 AVTAG/FSII (formerly DERD 2454),where FSII stands for Fuel Systems Icing Inhibitor. NATO Code F-40. Jet fuel JP-4 is flammable, colorless to straw-colored liquid mixtures that come from crude petroleum. They smell like kerosene.
Jet fuels are blends of other chemicals made according to U.S. Air
Force standards for use as aircraft fuels.
Although JP-4 is liquid at room temperature, it also evaporates
easily.
As a side note it does not burn as clean as JP-5, thus the Air Farce
wantabe jet jocks brids always left a smoke trail..

JP-5 is a high flash point kerosine meeting the requirements of the
U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S Grade JP-5. JP-5 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII (formerly DERD 2452). NATO Code F-44.
Jet fuels JP-5 is used as aircraft fuel by the military. JP-5 is
shorthand for jet propellant 5. JP-5 is the U.S. Navy's primary jet
fuel. The substances is composed of a large number of chemicals, is a colorless liquid that may change into gas vapor. It smells like
kerosene, since kerosene is the primary component of JP-5. It is made by refining either crude petroleum oil deposits found underground or shale oil found in rock.
Blending aviation gasoline with kerosene to form Jet Mix, a product similar to JP-4. JP-5 (avcat, NATO F-44), a high flash point kerosene developed by the Navy for use in Jet Mix, was first covered by the specification MIL-F-7914 in 1952. Subsequently, JP-5 was included in MIL-F-5624B in 1953. Although considerable work was done on Jet Mix, this product was never used operationally and JP-5 remains the primary jet fuel for most navies around the world.


Worried about coming in contact with this stuff?
Ok, here you go contact these folks:
ATSDR can tell you where to find occupational and environmental
health clinics. Their specialists can recognize, evaluate, and treat
illnesses resulting from exposure to hazardous substances. You can also contact your community or state health or environmental quality department if you have any more questions or concerns.

For information, contact:
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology
1600 Clifton Road NE, Mailstop E-29
Atlanta, GA 30333
Phone: 1-888-42-ATSDR (1-888-422-8737)
FAX: (404)-498-0093
Email: ATSDRIC@c...

Couple of links:
Info as to the hazards:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts121.html#bookmark02
History of jet fuel:
www.airbp.com/airbp/public/generalinterest/ jethistory.html
Info about jet fuels:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/jetfuel.html

[BLUEHAWK]

Well, I've poured my share of fuel into some wings pretty high off the ground... the Aviation fuel we used on recips wasn't purple. In fact, that's how we distinguished our fuel from the jet jockey's gas. But, this was wayyyyyyyy before Prince :D

Anyhow, it made the damn things run.

Doing it on days like today, 5 degrees F in a wind on a flight line... that was an experience in endurance and good aim I can tell ya. Never been so glad to finish a project as when refueling a 123 in these conditions... could not leave yer gloves on one hand don'tcha know... the damn nozzle itself weighed more than my wife :D

[Houdini]

I was part of a fuel unit in the Gulf War Episode 1 and we had roughly 12 million gallons of Deisel with about 4 million gallons of kerosene.Run the Kero through a filter seperator a time or 2 and you have JP-4 I do believe it was.

I didn't pay much attention in fuel class due to being an Engineer...I just wanted to see what happens when it explodes.

[revwardoc]

We used JP-4 on our C-141's and ground maintenance equipment (generators, floodlights, air compressors, etc.). At least once a year some idiot would put it into his car's gas tank and he'd have the fastest set of wheels on base...for about 30 seconds.

[Dragon Lady]

Yeah Dan,
Tends to eat through seals and hoses, don't it!
We used JP4 in the C5s too. One of the little pohdunk FOBs I worked at after I separated used JP5.
It is my understanding that the higher the number after the JP (jet propulsion) the higher the octane. The JPs and the AVs are up into the higher alcohol ranges.
But I'll check with my Chem buds to be sure.
DL

[Sarp]

hey everyone im new here. hey david i remember using something listed as" JET A-1" what was that??? the cav had it all over and do ya know what petroleum product was used on the sand roads to keep the sand down around the choppers??? i must say this looks like a nice website i think ill stay a bit...
Sarp

[BLUEHAWK]

Welcome Sarp, welcome home.

It's quite a good place to be, here.

Sir Blue

[Margaret Diann]

These are interestsing comments & I shall think about them some.

This is one use of JP-5 in the Gulf War 1 (http://www.valdezlink.com/gw_jetfuel.htm)

Here is a govt post comparing JP-5 to JP-8 (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs121.html)

I hear that they still make JP-5 ... some special blend for the Coast Guard at a refinery in Valdez, Alaska.

This special forces Green Beret has very advanced 'gulf war syndrome symptoms' and he cleaned a lot of weapons with several types of gun cleaners AND he stood behind the C-130s lots of times as the jet fuel was spraying ... awaiting boarding when he was a paratrooper in Afghanistan and other places. Staff Sgt James Alford is not an isolated case (http://www.valdezlink.com/alford.htm#note), Bill O'Reilly

I've heard from a couple aviation ordance military, but this is the saddest story of all - 'Cisero' (http://www.valdezlink.com/unsafe.htm)

Filling up at the pump? Back in college days, it was revealed that gas station operators were suffering from high rates of cancer and lead poisoning. (the oldtimers especially). This was never really reported in the mainstream media, too boring; but the station managers knew it as it was somewhat common knowledge in the business.

The more one handled gasoline, the less the life expectancy because of the additives. We felt that that was one good reason why companies had good reason to shift over to self-serve stations almost universally - fewer employees to get poisoned and wind up using up insurance money with long term sicknesses. About all my bosses who were longterm pros in running gas stations wound up with cancer and dying!

So, I was thinking, maybe out there in Cyberland, there is health statistical data regarding janitors/custodians, such as in medical and life insurance tables for risk and life expectancy, mostly likely sicknesses, diseases, prognosis, etc. Maybe not. Custodians would be one group who used 2-buto day in, day out.

Maybe it would be something to ponder. - Mike

PS
I only worked at a gas station for a couple years, then moved on to custodian while awaiting degree. I never developed health problems, the but one senior manager that I had was sick with poisoning almost every month; later succumbing to cancer. But he had been in the business all his life - the chemical poisonings apparently caught up with him.

That was also when refineries were phasing out leaded gasolines to production of nolead exclusively. That probably saved many many countless lives although it sure made cars put out stinky exhaust until catalytic converters were perfected.

There are who knows how many additives in gasoline these days that can get into the bloodstream - not saying that they're dangerous, but still, I wear my chemical resistant gloves when working with gas and even kerosene!

[drone_pilot]

I will have to look into all this info as i worked with JP4 fr over 7 years, when the fuel tank was full a pressure relese valve would pop and you would be breathing in a cloud of fuel.

Needless to say my health is bad now (liver problems, excema and more)

if anyone else has any more info on JP4 i'd like to see it.
Thanks

DP

[Margaret Diann]

Originally posted by drone_pilot I will have to look into all this info as i worked with JP4 fr over 7 years, when the fuel tank was full a pressure relese valve would pop and you would be breathing in a cloud of fuel. Needless to say my health is bad now (liver problems, excema and more) if anyone else has any more info on JP4 i'd like to see it.
Thanks - DP
Thanks for sharing. There is a military man from a Navy ship who brought this up. He said he had 'gulf war syndrome' symptoms but from the mid 1985s and he kept coming back to jet fuel. I think he is on to something. He is looking into it some more. So, you are welcome to e-mail me and I will pass your query on to him. e-mail is valdez@alaska.com

I am wondering about a particular component that may be an additive in the jet fuel labeled as pesticide. (For some reason it is in the pesticide category (http://www.valdezlink.com/jet_fuel.htm) - but not in the sense that you would expect.)

Isn't it interesting what Colmurphy shared JP-4 and JP-5 are just different grades of Diesel Fuel. Not pesticides. They were mixed with agent orange during the Vietnam War to give the DEFOLIANT some stickyness to adhere to the plants. I was not aware that it was used as a pesticide except to spray standing water to kill mosquitos. (By sufficating the Mosquito Larvae).