"polo"?

[BLUEHAWK]

Colonel Murph -

What means it to be called a "polo" in association with weaponry use?

[Andy]

Excuse me if I step in. Is it possible that you mean bolo? Back during the Spanish American War, the war continued in the Philippians while the Americans did the White Man?s Burden thing. We put down instructions in a very harsh way and it took quite a few years.

When new men joined the U.S. units they qualified with their rifles. If they failed to qualify they were said to only be worthy of using a bolo, a non-firearm, when in battle. Ever since then, probably around one hundred years, if a person fails to qualify with a firearm, he?s a bolo.

Now if some people are ?polo?, can?t wait to find out what that means. Murph?

Stay healthy,
Andy

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Andy, I'm sure I got the spelling wrong, and that you got the meaning right... that would hev been the context of where I saw the word used in a thread on here in the last couple of days...

Thanks... interesting.

[colmurph]

Andy's correct on the details. It's BOLO. You "Bolo'd" when you got too many "Maggies Drawers" indicating misses. Back in the "Old" days, we qualified on the KD or Known Distance range and shot at bullseye targets. Half of the unit would be on the firing line while the rest would be in the "Target Pits" (an 8 foot deep conrete ditch) under the targets. The targets we used were around 6 feet square for the 300 yard range and could be raised or lowered on a frame. After the line fired we would get the order to "Pull Targets" and would lower them to score them. We would put a white 4" disk mounted on a .30 cal. dowel through any holes in the black portion of the target and a white disk in any holes outside the black. The instructors would then be able to see (With binoculars) how many hits there were and where they hit. We knew that there were supposed to be 8 holes in the target because of the capacity of the M-1 clip so if there were only 6 holes in the target we would waive a large red flag back and fourth in front of the target, lower it and raise it up and waive again to indicate two misses. The flag was called "Maggies Drawers". Too many maggies drawers and you were considered a "BOLO".

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Murph -

300 yards!!!! 300 freakin' YARDS! That is a lot of yards, I think we fired at 50 yards or thereabouts... makes me feel sorta juvenile :D

[82Rigger]

Col. Murph's post brought back some memories!!!

I had to go dig through my storage shed!

I still have some of those scoring discs...black on one side and white on the other...in my range box. Still have some of the .30 caliber dowels used to "pin" them into the bullet holes.

Also found some of the old 300 yard and 600 yard "V" ring targets.

Do ya remember those, Col Murph?

The 600 yard bullseye (black) is about 39 inches across, but I'll tell ya what...at 600 yards, through an M1's sights, it's mighty little! Less than half of the WIDTH OF THE FRONT SIGHT BLADE!! That little dot "bounces" every time your heart beats. And the mirage makes it do the hootchie-kootchie!!
And if that little dot isn't exactly centered on top of that sight blade when the shot goes, you ain't gonna be in the black.

Also still have some rolls of target pasters. For those unfamiliar, they were gummed one-inch squares that came in rolls like stamps. Used 'em to patch the bullet holes. They came in black & white. Ya had to lick 'em to stick 'em and they tasted God-awful!

Hey, Col. Murph, do you remember that bore cleaning solvent they used to have? Came in little olive drab cans with a screw top. It was a black or dark brown liquid and it smelled like something died in it. But it was pretty good at getting rid of the damaging residue from corrosive-primed ammo.

Those were the days!

[BLUEHAWK]

Rigger and Murph -

How many, in your memory, riflemen could score expert (or even sharpshooter) with an M-1 at 600 yards, or 300 for that matter?

[usmcsgt65]

Ah, the memories of the rifle range. Marines (1965) shot at 200, 300, and 500 yards, with the M-14. As a sniper, we warmed upped at 500 yards, and shot to 1,000 (with the aide of a scope). We called the "target pits" the "butts".

[BLUEHAWK]

Sarge 65 -

How much did you hit in the red zone at 1000 yards (fer cryin' out loud!) :cl:

[82Rigger]

Mike,

Col. Murph will have to answer your question re Sharpshooter & Expert scores.

All my long range shooting with the M1 was in civilian matches.

We did, however, have a number of shooters who, with a National Match M1 and M72 Match ammo (or handloads) could keep all their shots in the 10 ring. The X ring (or the V ring) was the tie breaker.

[BLUEHAWK]

Rigger -

I shot the M-1 carbine I'm pretty sure (at Lackland), not the Garand. So that gets me wondering what you all were shooting, and if there could have been a difference in your mind's eye between the two weapons.

Also, why would they have asked you to shoot at a red zone 300, 600 or 100 yards away????

[82Rigger]

The .30 M1 Garand and the .30 M1 Carbine are entirely different weapons.

The Garand is a "full size" semi-auto rifle, 42 inches long and weighing over 9 pounds. It was adopted by the military in 1936 to replace the 1903 Springfield rifle. It utilizes an 8-round clip of 30/06 ammunition.

The M1 Carbine is shorter and lighter...about 6.5 pounds...and uses a 15-round or a 30-round magazine. The M1 Carbine cartridge is a straight-sided rimless cartridge of about the same power as a .357 Magnum pistol cartridge.

See pics below.

Mike....not sure what you mean by "red zone". Never heard that term before. You'll have to elaborate a little.

[82Rigger]

Here is an 8 round clip of 30/06 ammunition for the M1 Garand.

[82Rigger]

.30 M1 Carbine cartridges

[BLUEHAWK]

Rigger -
By red zone I only meant the bullseye... I knew there was quite a difference between the Garand and M1, but I have never held a Garand, so am wondering if you and Murph had it or the M1 for targets (and carrying), and either way, did you find that there was any difference in their effectiveness at such long ranges as 300, 600 or even 100 yards?

[colmurph]

When I fired the M-1 Garand I scored Expert. I've always been a pretty good shot, probably all the shooting I did as a kid with the Jr. NRA in school. Not any more though, it's politically incorrect. No wonder the kids going into the services today are such lousey shots.

82 Rigger....I remember that solvent well, if you didn't clean that stuff out as well it would corrode the bore. It got rid of all the mercuric salts from the old corrosive primers but the stuff must have had a weak acid solution in it to get rid of the primer salts.

Do you remember how the bullets would "Crack" as they went over the target pits? Then a few seconds later you'd hear the sound of the shot from the firing line. Yeah, I remember how little that bullseye looked at 600 yards.......it was like shooting at the head of a nail at a hundred feet. Breath control and squeeze were big items to have under control in those days. I also remember that the M-1 gained weight throughout the day, finally weighing around 70 pounds when all the marching was over and you could take it off your shoulder. For some arcane reason, wherever we went, we carried at right shoulder arms and sometimes alternating with left shoulder arms, but never sling arms and never at the ready as if we were going to be in a firefight. Do you remember guys wondering why the follower was nicknamed the "airplane" and finding out why if they re-installed it upside down?

[82Rigger]

Mike,

The M1 Carbine was not suitable for any serious target work.
It's maximum effective range was 300 yards, and even that is pushing the envelope quite a bit.

The cartridge specifications are basically that of a pistol cartridge...short range.

The M1 Carbine, while lightweight and conveniently small, is "combat accurate" but it's design is not conductive to accurizing for target work.

A typical G.I. M1 Carbine will shoot a 3 inch to 4 inch group at 100 yards. Because of the way the barrell and receiver fit into the stock, that can't be improved on very much.

A typical issue grade M1 Garand also shoots 3 to 4 inch groups but can be "accurized" to shoot much better.It is possible to get groups as small as one inch at 100 yards from a Match grade M1 Garand.

[82Rigger]

Col Murph,

Yeah, I remember the first time I worked the pits at 600 yards.
I remember thinking how much the bullets sounded like a bullwhip cracking when they snapped through the targets overhead.

At 600 yards the sound of the shot arrived about 2 seconds after the bullet arrived...kind of a

SNAP!.................(boom)

SNAP!.................(boom)

One time when I was working the pits a shooter put a round through the dowel from the previous shot. The disc came down and hit me on the head! I called the firing line and dared him to do it again. He didn't! LOL!

[82Rigger]

Col Murph,

Which sitting position did you use in competition?

I was taught to shoot the Garand by a former Marine and learned what I call The "Marine Corps" sitting position....legs crossed, heels almost up under your butt, and elbows "welded" to the insides of your knees. Hard to do at first...ya gotta be a contortionist! But it's rock steady, especially with a sling.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Rigger, pretty much what I was imagining, but could not say so from experience.

Interesting, the 30.06 makes a fair dinkum Deer rifle though... had a dear friend's father give me his son's M1... my buddy died in his father's arms of a cerebral blood thing, at the end of a deer hunt, in his own front yard, up a few miles NW of Cloverdale, CA... 36 years old.

Just stewin', looking back no wonder the AF would only put out targets at 50-100 yards :D

[82Rigger]

Col Murph,

What I remember most about the M1 follower is how bloody it would get when you tried to chamber your thumb!

No one is a bonafide M1 Garand affecionado unless they have had at least one acute case of "M1 Thumb". :D

I didn't realize it was possible to install the follower upside down.
What's the story on that?

[colmurph]

Used the same sitting position as you did, with elbows locked inside of my knees. I very seriously doubt that I could get into that position today, or if I did it would probably take two people and a crowbar to get me out of it and a Chiropractor to get me on my feet again.

[colmurph]

The follower would fit in the guides if installed upside down but the rocker pinion would not engage it. As soon as the weapon was assembled and the operating rod was pulled to the rear, the follower would fly out of the receiver about 5 feet into the air. That's why they called it the "Airplane".

[Margaret Diann]

Does anyone know what the solvents are in the gun cleaner the military has been using since the 1970s to present?

I also want to know if a sniper has his/her eyes burning and watering by keeping them close to the 'sight'? And if so, is it more of a problem in hot weather?

I heard of a 3 time deployed Vietnam Navy Seal who would tuck his gun in his belt; and at the center of his back since then, there is 'leathery skin patches' (plus he has the other odd symptoms of fatigue, etc)

This leads me to believe, as I was told, that troops clean their guns daily with products that contain 2-butoxyethanol ... and that it affects military before Gulf War

So, does a sniper get gun cleaning 'fumes' in eyes? That is my question.

[usmcsgt65]

At a 1000 yards, I was in snipers. Use a scope of course. Everybody was in the black, one did not stay in snipers long if you made a habit of missing.

[colmurph]

My first weapon was the M-1 and it was very effective out to 600 yards with iron sights. (Scoped they are effective out to 1,000 yards) I didn't get issued a Carbine until I got overseas. The carbine was only good out to about 300 yards and at that range the bullet was running out of steam. Given my druthers, I'll take the M-1 anytime. The Carbine round is nothing more than a slightly beefed up Pistol Cartridge similar in ballistics to the 32 WCF or 32-20 round.