handguns

[revwardoc]

I'm thinking about buying a handgun for personal protection, target shooting, etc. I've had a few rifles and shotguns and currently own some 18th century repros but have never owned a contemporary handgun. What would be a good one to carry that won't look like I'm carrying a football under my jacket but will have sufficient stopping power should I ever (and God willing, I won't) have to use it for protection? Also, what's better; a shoulder holster or a hip/belt holster? And should I use hollow points or steel jackets? I'd appreciate all the advice I can get.

[SparrowHawk62]

Take a look at the Glock's! I was very impressed with them the first time I shot one. I have a G-19, 9mm, a bit large for everyday carry but a great weapon.
Glock makes some smaller models.

[colmurph]

Admins, lets move this to the "Weapons" thread.

A good all around shooter and home defense weapon it the 1911 and variants. .45 cal. is an ideal "Man Stopper" and much better than any other caliber other than a 12 ga. with OO Buckshot. The .357 zips through the target at about 1,650 fps and only slows down to around 1,500 fps on exiting through the other side. The .45 is only moving at around 900 fps but it STOPS INSIDE which means that all of the foot pounds of energy behind the 230 grain bullet have been transferred to the object hit. The .357 on the other hand is only 180 grains and most of the foot pounds of energy go out the back of the target. The bottom line is that the .45 will stop a person cold while the .357 will not.
The same can be said about the 9mm, it is around 150 grains and NOT a man stopper unless it's a head shot.

[DMZ-LT]

What Murph said. Use hollow points P +

[Arrow]

Originally posted by colmurph Admins, lets move this to the "Weapons" thread.

Moved by Administration at request of Col Murph

[kmac7847]

I go with 1911 there are many sizes and weights and manufacturers glock is a great weapon but also look at Kimber's and Springfield armorey's version. I carried a .45 for several years , but now I'm getting older and slower I now carry a S&W 9mm due to it's concealability and small size, yet carrying a 12 round clip, whereas, a 45 you usually only have 7 rounds per clip.
Shop around, there's so many great weapons to choose from these days. Remember too if your going to carry a weapon for personal and family defense, find one that once concealed on your body, fits like a glove, there's easy access to gun ready postion and you can holster quickly and securely

[ArtySgt]

If you choose a .45 caliber, try to get some training if it's a 1911A1. Another choice not mentioned is the .38 special double action, this can also be gotton in +P. Many Police Officers carry this weapon off duty and as a back up. It's small, light and when loaded with +P wad cutters is a power house. Get in range time and any pro training you can no matter what you choose. Above be safe and get some thing you can handle since you'er new to this.

[Andy]

Dan,
You have received some good information so far, HOWEVER you do reside in the People?s Republic of Massachusetts. Your wants and our laws do conflict. A so called ?Class A Large Capacity? handgun license is different from all other animals. If you were to get a 9mm, 10mm or 45 Cal. (for example) or most any semi-auto handgun the law is different. It?s more difficult to get the license and if there are Any violations of restrictions, you have no doubt committed a crime, with a semi-auto handgun it's probably a felony, very bad juju.

If you want something easy to hide with good stopping power, and less restrictions, I?d suggest a snub nose .38 five round revolver. Load it with brass jacket hollow points and you should be happy. If your looking for a belly gun that?s really easy to hide a double barrel .22 derringer with Remington Yellow Jackets will be ok. If you suffer from true paranoia get a S&W model 629, .44 Cal and load it with Winchester 200 grain silver tip hollow points. Note: when firing a .44 always use two hands and try not to hurt yourself, I speak from experence.

Holsters are a matter of comfort or to quote Dylan, ?How does it feel??. Ankle, hip, inside the pants belt line (usually in the middle of the back), shoulder holsters are all a matter of what feels good to you. At your (our) size a loose pair of pants and you can put a .22 or .38 snub nose in your front pocket, a handkerchief between the weapon and outside of the pants and no one will know it's there.

You will be required to take a weapons course prior to obtaining a license to carry, different from your firearms identification card. They will also have to do an interstate records check and check your Mass records back to 1960(?). Not all the old records are computerized so this can take a month or two. If you really Have nothing to do go to your city hall or court law library and read Chapter 140 of the General Laws.

Finally, if you get the Class A license it?s storage is very important, very restrictive. You?ll need to get a trigger lock and some kind of strong box to put it in. Depending on the town you live in it can be almost impossible to get a ?protection? license (unless you?re a cop). The next lower level is ?All Lawful Purposes?, several restrictions on that. Sometimes when you'd like a handgun for protection it would violate the restriction on your license. The lowest level and most commonly issued is License to Carry ?Target and Hunting?. If you are not going to or from the target range or the woods where you have a hunting permit, in the eyes of the law you do not own a handgun license and the one year in jail law kicks in. It?s a violation of the law if you stop for bread and milk on the way home from the range and have the hand gun in your vehicle or on your person.

You might also want to check with the local cops, different departments and different courts have different interpretations of the law.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[SparrowHawk62]

Well Andy has made some good points. I'd stay away from a .22 of any type. It's not a man stopper, it shows an intent to do harm more than defend. (Yes, this has been proven in NY courts!)
Smallest carry gun I've used/carried is a .380 Browning Double Action or BDA. A used one will run some bucks. Nice .38, a Ruger SP 101 this small gun is one solid weapon and can handle +p loads with no problem.
Carry methods vary greatly, I don't know how many weapons you've carried before. I carried while in uniform so the weapon was in a duty belt. Off duty I always carried in a thumb break holster on my strong side. Small of the back, ankle, shoulder rigs all take a lot of practice to use properly. If you're not going to practice drawing and shooting from these types of rigs don't get one.
A pump shot gun is good for home defense if you have the room to use it. It's tough to go around corners with it or clear a room quickly. But racking that bad boy is often enough to stop most bad guys cold in their tracks.
I'm just giving you my opinions, I've carried for some 18 plus years. In those years I never drew my duty weapon, off duty I only drew a weapon one time. (Guy pulled a knife on me, when I went to help him after he drove off the road.)

[revwardoc]

I certainly appreciate all your advice and I will use it to futher research my desired end.

Andy, I've got a class A license. In my town, unlike others in the People's Republic, they don't skimp on such issues.

I once worked at a small company where a fellow employee had an arms dealer license. One day he showed up with 10 AK-47's complete with bayonet and 100 rounds of ammo, for $300. While I believe in the 2nd Amendment, I personally didn't feel that I'd ever need such a weapon. He did sell all of them and several of us went out to a range and test fired them. Lots of fun!

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/iipcache/366.png

[Andy]

Holy Gun Laws Batman! You got a a class A, but what's it for? Portection, Lawful Purposes, or Target & Hunting? I've heard of such towns where they are easy to get but only know of one. Pelham Ma. has only 5 police and a number of part timers. Only PD in the state, only one I've heard of where all the law has machine gun licenses. Protection licenses for citizens aren't a big problem there. Congrads on being lucky.

I'd still recomend a revolver - you do travel out of town.

Stay healthy,
Andy

PS: Sparrowhawk is right, a thumb break holster on your strong side is best or at least safest (don't want the bad guy to remove your weapon). However, I've seen people with some strange rigs and they swear by them.

[colmurph]

You might also want to check on the ammunition allowed in the Peoples Republic of Mass. Here in the PR of NJ you will go to jail for "Posession" of a hollow point round. If your weapon holds 7 of them tou will be charged with seven counts. My idea is to load some hollow base wadcutters backwards and keep the first two shots that way and all the rest loaded normally. DOUBLE TAP and when the coroner has questions you can always say the barrel is worn and the bullets "Tumble". A hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards with enough powder to hit 1,500 fps is an AWESOME man stopper. A normal wadcutter is loaded for around 950 fps.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by colmurph My idea is to load some hollow base wadcutters backwards and keep the first two shots that way and all the rest loaded normally.

Not a good idea, you'll get screwed for this in Jersey! Possession, use or manufacture of Hollow Points is a no no! By altering the round you are manufacturing a Hollow Point.

Originally posted by colmurph DOUBLE TAP and when the coroner has questions you can always say the barrel is worn and the bullets "Tumble".

Again this idea doesn't wash. The lands and grooves only cut one way, thus the direction of the round can be determined. They are also going to confiscate your weapon if you are involved in a shooting. They will fire your weapon for a comparison round. Worn barrel or not they will look a lot a like under a microscope.

I have enough of background to tell you, do not use hand loads in a carry weapon for self defense. A good lawyer will rip you apart when you have to explain "Hand Loads"! Altered rounds carried for the purpose of killing...

[PHO127]

1. Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

2. He who hesitates gets buried.

3. When being interviewed by police say " officer I was afraid for my life".

4. You have the right to remain silent, USE IT after stating that you would like to speak to a lawyer.

5. It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[PHO127]

in the last 10 years I speak from experience. My 2 favorite man stoppers are the 45 ACP and 44 special. After that a 38 special. Look deep within yourself before purchasing a handgun for self defense. Make sure you could pull the trigger if you need to. If and when you decide to purchase a handgun go to a gun store and handle several makes and models, you will find one that sings to you. I agree with Andy on purchasing a revolver for the home, no fooling with safetys no trying to pull the slide. Pick it up and shoot. PS 45 ACP is available in revolvers. Unless you are adept at dealing with lawyers and courtrooms use factory loads. on loaded or unloaded in the house I can only relate that my great grandfather, Frank "Pistol Pete" Eaton, when being interviewed on TV in Dallas Tx in 1952. When asked if his guns were loaded he pulled one and shot a hole in the studio floor. He remarked "I'd sooner have a pocket full of rocks than an unloaded gun".

[Desdichado]

I just want to echo the revolver line, but for different reasons. When you've got someone (burgler, mugger, JW at the front door at dinner time) by the scruff of the neck, it's hard to cock an auto!

[Keith_Hixson]

I have never owned a handgun. I guess the reason why is because even though I came from a shooting family. We hunted with both shotgun and rifle we never owned a handgun. I have neighbors and friends who own handguns and I have gone shooting with them on many occassions but for some reason have never felt the need for owning a handgun. I think Sid probably had good advice. If you own one you'd better be ready to use one. Even though I'm sure I'd do well in battle I just don't know if I want to take the responsibility for handgun ownership in the civilian world. Thanks for your post Sid.

Keith

[colmurph]

"Again this idea doesn't wash. The lands and grooves only cut one way, thus the direction of the round can be determined. They are also going to confiscate your weapon if you are involved in a shooting. They will fire your weapon for a comparison round. Worn barrel or not they will look a lot a like under a microscope."

Sparrow Hawk.....no matter which end of a bullet comes out of the barrel first...the rifling cuts the same. You CANNOT determine which way the bullet was facing when it exited the barrel. If you have a bbl with a right hand twist and flip flop it ene for end.....it still has a right hand twist.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by colmurph
Sparrow Hawk.....no matter which end of a bullet comes out of the barrel first...the rifling cuts the same. You CANNOT determine which way the bullet was facing when it exited the barrel. If you have a bbl with a right hand twist and flip flop it ene for end.....it still has a right hand twist.

Sorry, but you can tell which way the bullet was seated. If the round, the wadcutter in this case was loaded backward the rifling would clearly show this. It cuts only one way, a second comparison round would be used to determine the direction of travel for the slug. Other indications would be the seating impression, the round would also mushroom the front of the round regardless of which way it way fired.
Take a JHP of FMJ round and it's not to hard to tell which way is what, a wad cutter examined by an expert and he/she can tell.
Yes flipping the barrel or the round it's self until it faces the right way again will yield the result you mention. However half a flip will not and the rifling marks will be upside down. Granted the twist doesn't change but the markings on the round would/will.

[PHO127]

I have a S&W 5903 SSV 41/2 bbl 9mm This is a custom handgun of which there were only 1200 made for special HRT personnel. A S&W model 29 with 4 inch BBl 44mag but loaded with 44 special 200 grain silvertips customized with an internal barrel compensator and black teflon finish. Ruger super redhawk 44 mag with 91/2 bbl, My hog gun. Harrington and Richardson Target Model 22mag. Ruger SP101 in 38sp and 357. Ruger Mark I 22 LR, Walther PPK/S in 380. A Custom Built Para-Ordnance in 40 S&W.

I carry the 29 and H&R 22 mag in my truck with a speed loader for the 29 with 44mag rounds and the 5903 and PPK/S or SP101 for concealed carry. Mrs PHO carries the SP 101 in 38sp loaded with 110gr Corbon hollow points plus speed loader. I was married with the 5903 under my Tux.

[Andy]

Murph, Sparrow is right on. If there are lands and groves on the bullet it's pretty easy to determine which way it came out of the weapon. However, the beauty of a wad cutter is that often the round will come apart on entry, head shots in particular, thus there may not be enough of them left to make a match.

Sid, how many weapons are you going to let me shoot? Lt. told me not to take my own so it will be, "Can I try that?"

Always keep 200 rounds of 158 grain brass jacket hollow points for the .357 and the same number of rounds of 200 grain silver tip .44 hollow points. Just personal protection of course.

Hey, has anyone heard of the Street Sweeper? It's a 12 G. shot gun, semi, with a box mag that holds 8 rounds. Fired it once with 00 Buck, quite a weapon.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[ArtySgt]

Street sweeper is the only weapon I know that is illegal by State Law in Virginia. Sure there must be more but can't remember them right now.

[PHO127]

I think you would really like the model 29. I think I showed it to you when we were in Savannah. LT made me prommise that I wouild not start comparing bullet holes with you. You into long range rifles? I have a bolt action .223 that will shoot eggs at 500 yards and a 25-06 that will shoot beer cans at 800 yards. Any shooting needs to be done before the party, Alcohol + guns = bad JUJU.

[Andy]

Don't every even think about shooting after drinking. That's my line. Course I used to also say never drink till your done cleaning them, but I understand it will be "house rules" in Georgia.

Arty Sgt., Massachusetts in really up tight about weapons. However the street sweeper can be obtain by law enforcement. I tried to get an M-79, just for personal protection but the state said no. I can get a machinegun license but no thump gun, very sad.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[colmurph]

I've got a class III for a silencer on a .22 pistol but even though I have the Federal Papers the Peoples Republic of New Jersey says it's ILLEGAL. So I've had to keep it in a Safe Deposit Box in a Bank in Pennsylvania.

[ArtySgt]

Andy, too bad about the thump gun, you would have gotton a lot of attention from the bad guys if you'd been able to use it in your work. Had a sawed off 12 gage I used to carry in the patrol car, they see you real quick with one of these. Had to give it up to the Feds when I retired.