Civil War ammo manufacture

[82Rigger]

I have a Zouave rifled musket and I cast my Minie bullets in a mould.

But I'm wondering how the arsenals (North and South) manufactured their bullets....cast, or swaged, or...???

[Andy]

More rifles were made for use in the Civil War at the Springfield Armory and any other place. Since LBJ closed the armory in 1968 it's been turned into a museum, nice place to visit. They would have the answers to your questions.

Springfield Armory Museum
PO Box 4871
Springfield, Ma.
01101

Or on Google,
Springfield Armory (national historic site)
They have a field where you can e-mail questions.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[colmurph]

I think that they were cast. I don't think the technology was around then to swage a hollow base bullet with such a large cavity. I have seen plenty of "Gang Moulds" at gun shows which can cast 10 bullets at a pop. They were all three piece with an insert in the bottom to make the hollow base and the sprue was at the tip of the bullet. This makes sense as the bullet will not be out of balance along it's longitudinal axis if the sprue is cut too long or too short. It will only change the weight of the projectile slightly.
Andy......on the whole, very few rifles were made at Springfield Armory....only 265,129 of the 1861 model and 273,265 of the 1863 model. The vast majority of Civil War Rifles were made by contractors such as Alfred Jenks & Sons (Bridesburg), Eagleville, Manton, Millbury, Mowry, Muir, Sarson & Roberts, Norfolk (Norfolk, Conn) Norwich, Parkers' Snow & Co., Providence Tool, Remington, Robinson, Savage, Schubarth, Norris & Clement, Trenton Locomotive & Machine Co., Union Arms, Watertown and even a German Manufacturer in Suhl, Germany, Whitney and Winsor Locks The 1861 Special Contract Rifle was made by Colt, Amoskeag, Lamson, Goodnow & Yale and E.G. Lamson & Co.
Well over 2 million Rifles.

[BLUEHAWK]

1. Was there ever such a thing as a "Minie Ball" hollow-point, or the equivalent?

2. Was there ever such a thing as a "Minie Ball" full metal jacket, or the equivalent?

3. Of Civil War/War of Rebellion shoulder or side arm projectiles, which might be considered the more deadly, by today's standards?

[Tamaroa]

There was a Confederate bullet called the Gardiner explosive bullet which was a minie ball with a hollowed out area and a small hole drilled into it. I don't believe they were very effective but I have a few in my collection; look for a 2 ringed mini ball with a hole drilled in the center of the conical depression.

When I was in the park service and they taught us how to use the molds; there were two important steps they taught us. One was to let the lead heat up to the point where you saw the impurities float to the surface. Then we skimmed them off with a small ladle. The other thing they did was to make sure we dipped the bullet into hot wax. The wax would cling to the depressions (rings) on the exterior of the bullet and serve as a seal to keep gases from escaping when the percussion cap and charge were ignited.

Bill

[colmurph]

There were never any "Metal Jacketed" bullets during the Civil War. The metal in the barrles of that time were made of malleable iron and not steel....they would not stand up to a copper jacket. Modern steel was not used in rifle barrels until 1894 with the Whichester Mod. 94 being the first weapon made of good steel.
I have a buddy who had an 1878 Mod. Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70 that had a fairly decent bore. He proceeded to shoot modern copper jacketed factory loads in it. After about 150 shots he had a smooth bore. Now he can fire .410 shotgun loads in it. They also never used the equivalent of a "Hollow Point". Soldiers found by the enemy with crosses cut in their bullets would be shot out of hand. They were considered "Dum Dum" rounds which were named after Dum-Dum Arsenal in India where such bullets were made for the .577 Enfield Rifle and used with devastating results on Indians. The .58 Cal Minnie Ball was very effective without any modifications. If it hit bone the limb would be lost. If it hit in the torso it was almost certain death unless it was a hit at extremely long range. The only reason the minnie ball had the hollow base was so that the bullet would expand on firing and fill the lands and grooves of the rifling. You get the same effect when firing .38 SP hollow base wadcutter in a Colt Lightning Revolver. The bore of the old .38 Long Colt is .375 and the modern .38 bullet is smaller at .357 but if you fire the hollow base wadcutters they expand to fill the bore. The only other alternitave is to cast bullets using a .36 cal Colt Navy mold and using those to reload .38 Long Colt brass.

[Desdichado]

I think all Confederate ammunition manufacture fell under the Nitre and Mining Bureau - the same bureau responsible for the famous urine collection program for the manufacture of nitrates. I have some info and stats but that particular book got "permanently borrowed" and I'll have to get it back first.

[BLUEHAWK]

Great stuff...

Bill & Murph & Des -

-When the Minie was being manufactured in factories, did they use the wax method there routinely too?

-Did the trooper in the field, if/when casting Minie's use the wax?

-Would, for example, Vaseline or heavy gear lube perform the same or a similar function as wax?

-So, as long as the end of the soft metal projectile is formed (with a concavity) so as to expand and fill the space, then it does not matter how well-filled everything in front of that place fills the space?

-Is ALL rifling on a curve within every barrel or are there other designs, such as straight?

-Is there ANY modern rifle that does NOT have rifling?

-Since the lead of a Minie is fairly soft, how were rounds carried so as to not ding up the surfaces with them banging into each other, running all over the place like they had to?

-If the effectiveness (kill/maim) of the Minie was so certain, why would any trooper even attempt to dum-dum a round?

-Do modern day fighters find it necessary to "beef up" shoulder arm rounds somehow? I have read on here about how some mortar and/or shoulder rocket (something, maybe it was bazooka) guys DO fiddle with loads per se. But what about ordinary rifle rounds? Doesn't seem necessary, but what the heck do I know, zip :D

-The normal (unaltered) Minie... in most cases then would enter the body. expand and stay inside, right? It would not go clear through a person as does, e.g. a .357 round (and another one Murph mentioned a couple weeks ago)?
I.e. Does the Minie expand upon striking soft tissue?

[Desdichado]

Originally posted by BLUEHAWK Great stuff...

-Is there ANY modern rifle that does NOT have rifling?


Sure. Shotgun with a slug round.

[BLUEHAWK]

Oh.

Des -

What would happen if a shotgun DID have rifling, using the same "slug" round?

What IS a "slug" round? I thought shotguns shot those rounds with carboard fronts and brass rear ends. Is that a slug round?

[Tamaroa]

Blue, the standard method of carrying minie balls was to have them placed in a tin lined leather cartridge box that was designed to hold 40 rounds. Each round was hand rolled in a factory. It consisted of a piece of paper, string, 55 grains of black powder and the minie ball. The minie ball was placed in the front of the cartridge that was closed by the string. Powder was behind the minie ball. The paper was long enough to be folded over to keep the powder from spilling. Sometimes they were issued 60 rounds , 20 of which were stuffed in pockets. Stingy officers often did not give the men a proper amount because they thought the men would waste the ammo if they had too many rounds.

When the round was loaded the soldier performed a ritual known as load in 9 times. I won?t bore you with the details but the long and the short of it was that the soldier tore the paper cartridge with his teeth and poured the powder down the barrel, next step was to push the paper down the barrel and then the minie ball. Now the ramrod was removed from the stock rammed the charge home and returned the ramrod to the stock, seating it with the heel of his hand. He then put a percussion cap on the nipple and put the musket on half cock (their equivalent to a safety) then waited for the order to fire.

A good soldier was expected to be able to fire 3 rounds a minute.

I have seen factory produced minie balls with wax still in the rings. If you can find it look for Francis Lords Encyclopedia of the Civil War. He had a lot of great photos in there of ammunition of all types.

Bill

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Bill...

Drifter has left the field...

[82Rigger]

...the "slug" rounds being referred to here are what is properly known as RIFLED SLUGS.

It's a standard shotgun cartridge (paper or plastic tube with a brass base) but instead of having multiple pellets inside, it has a rifled slug.

The rifled slug is kind of like a Minie except that it has angled lands and grooves on its bearing surface. When fired the slug will spin enough to stabilize it in a smooth bore shotgun.

[Keith_Hixson]

I use a breneke slug. (From Germany) It also has a felt wad attached to the back of the slug. It maintains compression and velocity better than American slugs. When living in the Olympia area in Washington, some of the best deer hunting was in slug only area. A gunsmith introducted me to breneke slugs. (I believe the spelling isn't quite right but its close.) They are also rifled slugs. Got two deer with them.

Keith

[colmurph]

I've got about 15 original .58 Cal Cartriges from the old Schuylkill Arsenal in Phila (Torn down in the mid 1960's) and the minnie ball appears to be covered in bees wax or tallow. When I cast my own I dip them in melted Wonder Grease which is a yellow waxy lube that helps keep the powder fouling soft enough to swab out after every three or four shots. During the Civil War every tenth round fired was supposed to be a "Cleaner" round which was a solid base bullet with a circular iron scraper attached to the base. This was supposed to shoot out the powder fouling but was not very effective. Most soldiers would fire their 5 or 6 rounds and then swab the bore with a wet patch to get the fouling out.

I've also got a few "Buck and Ball" loads for the .69 cal. Mod. 1819 Musket that was converted to percussion and used during the opening years of the Civil War until enough rifles had been made to issue out. It has one 69 cal ball and 3 OO buckshot pellets with around 70 grains of black powder behind it. I guess the theory was that if you missed the guy you were shooting at you stood a better chance of getting the guys on either side of him.

[BLUEHAWK]

Amazing...

[Desdichado]

Originally posted by BLUEHAWK

What would happen if a shotgun DID have rifling, using the same "slug" round?


Guess it wouldn't be a shotgun then. It'd be a shotrifle. ;)

It's generally considered a bad idea to shoot shot (little balls) from a rifled barrel. Ruins the rifling, so they say.

Noncoformist that I am, my main piece is a 13mm Mauser 1886 model, basically a second-generation bolt action and pretty primitive. Don't know where Grandpa got it from, but it's mine now. Because of the age of it, I use a slightly reduced load for safety. Because of its gargantuan (by modern rifle standards) caliber, it makes a respectable fouling piece, so I did up some shells with what's basically a .410 birdshot load, soft lead only. Works just fine.

Don't expect I'm doin' it any good, but haven't noticed any loss of accuracy with regular ammo from usin' it that way yet.

(Historical gun collectors having a heart attack now can relax - the original battle sites were hacked off long before my time and replaced with home-made groove sites. The gun prolly ain't worth the wood it's sittin on.)

[82Rigger]

I can't imagine lead shot causing any damage to a rifled barrel. Might leave lead deposits which can be a bugger to clean out of the barrel.

As far as I know the biggest problem in shooting shot in a rifled barrel is that the rifling messes up the shot pattern (spread).

You don't get a nice even distribution of pellets...the pattern can have large "holes" which means misses.

[colmurph]

The .69 cal musket was smoothbore. At some time during the war they re-bored some and put in shallow rifling but it did not work very well due to the thinness of the metal.

[BLUEHAWK]

Hmmmmmm...

-What about that question of whether ALL rifling is curved or is any straight, on shoulder, side or them humungous Naval "guns"?

- I was REALLY amazed to see that shotgun slug, never in my life would've imagined such a thing... that goes INside the shotgun brass/cardboard/plastic "shell" thing, right?

[Tamaroa]

Do not claim to be the end all and be all here Blue, but my guess is that All rifling is curved. The whole point of the CURVED grooves is to spin the bullet. It will give the projectile greater range and accuracy. Straight would not spin the bullet. There are different degrees of rifling as well. Some are much tighter than others. For example the Whitworth sharp shooters rifle is grooved differently than a regular rifled musket.

Murph I have a 69 caliber smooth bore Austrian musket that was cut down and made into a horse pistol. I fired it once and almost broke my wrist. It'sfun to look at though.



Bill

[colmurph]

Believe it or not, the original purpose of rifling in barrels was to collect powder fouling. The first guns so made had straight rifling. Somewhere along the line, a gunsmith accidently put a turn in the grooving and improved the accuracy.

Tamaroa..I can relate to the horse pistol. I've been firing an 1842 Mod. manufactured by Henry Aston. It's 54 cal. and the first time I shot it I used the standard 70 grains. WOW! Just about spun me around! Now I use 30 grains.

[BLUEHAWK]

Bill and Murph -

Is it correct to think that the accuracy is improved by the spinning of the projectile caused by it coming out from a tube in a circular manner (poor wordsmanship here :D)? Sorta like putting some "English" on a cue ball?

[Desdichado]

Exactly. It's that old inertia law of Newton's, the same law that makes gyroscopes and children's tops so fascinating.

All motion is relative though - that's why a machine gun firing from the left side of a helicopter has different ballistic characteristics than one firing from the right, which I guess is about as far away from the original topic as I'm willing to take THIS one. ;)

[BLUEHAWK]

Des -
Whoa there... the same type machine gun coming from right and left sides have DIFFERENT ballistics?

How's that?

[Desdichado]

Assuming level, steady flight, a shot from the right side firing forward will bend down and to the right. A shot from the left will bend UP and to the right.

Don't ask me to explain why. All I can tell you with certainty is basically the bend to the right is caused by the rotor and the bend up or down is caused by the rounds passing through the air differently.

I'm sure some genius will come up with dedicated left-side and right-side systems to compensate, if they haven't already.

[82Rigger]

The direction of bullet rotation of two machine guns placed OPPOSITE each other will be OPPOSITE.

If the rifling in the barrel is clockwise, then the bullets from the gun in the RIGHT door will be spinning toward the REAR of the helicopter (and its forward motion).

The bullets from the gun in the LEFT door will spin toward the FRONT of the helicopter (and its forward motion).

The wind stream from the helicopter's forward motion will affect the bullets from each gun differently.

[BLUEHAWK]

Des & Rigger - never thought about it that way... amazing, absolutely amazing... was thinking about myself being the gunner, I'd best not be dyslexic about right and left :D

How, then, does the gunner compensate, or is the "spray" of rounds in the general vicinity sufficient for an "aimed" burst? or does it actually matter with a machine weapon? What if one were to be firing a single shot (more or less) shoulder arm from the two positions... would THAT be governed by the same ballistics? As much or the same?

[Desdichado]

Best solution is use lots of tracer and spend a lot of time cleaning your weapon and loading belts later. :)

[82Rigger]

...you seem to enjoy learning new facts about some of this stuff.

Here's one for ya, but I'll give you a chance to figure it out first for yourself.

You know that the rifling in a barrel imparts a spin to the bullet, which stabilizes the bullet like a gyroscope.

So...how FAST do bullets spin? Say, a bullet fired from an M16A1 like we used in the "Nam?

I'll give you a couple of hints:

1. the rifling in the barrel makes one complete revolution every 12 inches.

2. the muzzle velocity of the bullet is approx. 3100 feet per second.

See if you can figure it out!

[BLUEHAWK]

Rigger -

Well, I got a number 258.3, but I don't what it is OF. I cannot figure out how to count one revolution of a projectile :D

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAALP!

[82Rigger]

The RATE OF TWIST of the rifling is 1 turn in 12 inches as we have stated. That means that the bullet is making one complete revolution for every foot (12 inches) of forward travel.

The MUZZLE VELOCITY is 3100 feet per second which means the bullet is traveling forward 3100 feet in one second.

Now, combining those two facts...in one second the bullet travels 3100 feet, and makes a complete spin every foot, so...

In one second the bullet spins 3100 times...3100 revolutions per second, or, since here in the US of A we normally use RPM to designate spin...

3100 x 60 (seconds in one minute) = 186,000 RPM

That's about six times faster than high speed on a kitchen counter blender.

If that were a soft point or a hollow point bullet, peeled back like a banana and spinning at that rate, it essentially liquifies the tissue that it passes through...utterly destroys it.

Nope, not like on TV at all.

[BLUEHAWK]

Wow...

Now, IS there any deformation of a lead pointed (esp. hollow point or soft one) AS it is propelled through frictioned air, Rigger?

[82Rigger]

Mike, I don't know for sure the answer to your question. We may have to get Col Murph to help with this one.

My best guess would be that there probably IS a slight amount of deformation on a soft point bullet in flight, due to the soft lead tip heating up due to air friction and flowing to the rear. Just an educated guess. It apparently doesn't have much affect on the bullet performance, however. Recovered bullets indicate that they almost always perform as expected.

Interesting things CAN happen to bullets in flight.

Some types of "varmint" bullets...those designed for ground hogs and small animals of similar size...have thinner copper jackets covering the lead core than do bullets for deer and large animals. This is so that they will expand quickly in a short distance (inside the small animal's body).

If you drive those varmint bullets too fast i.e. in a 22/250 or a .220 Swift, the centrifugal force of the incredibly fast bullet spin will literally tear the bullets apart IN FLIGHT.

I had that happen once. Loaded some of the varmint type bullets into 22/250 ammunition to a velocity of about 3500+ feet per second. What happens is, when you shoot, you see what looks like a "vapor trail" along the bullet path, ending somewhere along the way to the target. But, alas! No hole in the target!
Took me a while to figure out what was happening. Finally, I saw some very tiny pin holes in the target paper where small pieces of the bullet had struck. Weird!

[BLUEHAWK]

Rigger, thats exacraly what I was wondering about too... whether at a certain velocity along with a number of other factors, a proectile simply flies to pieces or goes off in a not-straight line purely from having grown sorta "wings", disturbances in the airfoil... interesting.

[Desdichado]

Only my wife's logic does that. :p

[BLUEHAWK]

Which is why you have them stars all over yer unit patch, eh Des :D

[colmurph]

A 450 grain Minnie Ball projectile fired from a 41 1/2 inch barrel (Length of all the Civil War Rifled Muskets) with 70 grains of black powder develops a muzzle velocity of around 900-950 fps. The turn in the rifling is around one in 15 inches at the chamber end ending up as one in 12 at the muzzle end (Progressive Rifling) At those speeds there isn't enough air friction to heat the round so there is absolutely no deformation of the bullet while in flight. When a round impacts it will only turn around one time when passing through the average human body (12" front to back" however at those speeds it doesn't pass through. The damage is done by the massive weight of the bullet and the fact that it was made out of soft lead. It flattened when it hit bone and in fact the bone fragments did most of the damage after the bullet hit. 450 grains x 950 feet per second is like being hit by a Mack truck. The damage was even greater when people were hit with the .69 cal musket ball of the Mod. 1819 Musket that was used throughout the war. (they were converted from flintlock to percussion and had shallow riflling put into the barrels) It was like getting hit with a small cannon ball.

[Tamaroa]

To bring home some of murph's comments. there are document examples of minne ball wounds in the WBTS that would astound you. One fellow was hit in the elbow by a minnie ball and it shattered his entire arm, 18 breaks were counted.

On the other hand Joshua Lawrence Chamberlayne was wounded in the torso. the bullet passed completely through him without hitting bone and he lived for another 50 years.

Generaly the impact shattered the bones to the extent that amputation was the only remedy, there usually was no bone left to mend.

Bill

[colmurph]

Chamberlain was wounded by a .36 cal Pistol Ball which passed through his hips and nicked his bladder. He eventually died from this wound in 1914 when the scar tissue on his bladder ruptured and he developed septicemia.

[Desdichado]

I think there is some historical misperception about Chamberlain's famous wound - or perhaps he had more than one and people confuse them.* (See bottom)

As it happens, I was just reading Chamberlain this morning and he doesn't mention the ball piercing him at all. He describes it passing through his horse's neck, a leather case of field orders, a brass mounted mirror in his breast pocket, and striking him just below the heart, rendering him senseless. He describes how the bullet then traced his ribs to the rear and demolished the pistol of his aide Lt. Vogel, knocking that officer off his horse.

In his own words:

The bullet had riddled my sleeve to the elbow and bruised and battered my bridle arm so that it was useless, and the obstructions it met had slightly deflected it so that, instead of striking the point of my heart, it had followed around two ribs so as to come out at the back seam of my coat.

Now, he doesn't actually say whether the bullet followed the inside or outside of his ribs, but based on his actions later the same day, I presumed the latter.

After regaining consciousness after a few moments, he went on to lead a successful counterattack, and at one point found himself alone and surrounded by Confederates demanding his surrender. His appearance could not have been the officerly one of the portraits, for he was able to pass himself off as a rebel officer.

To their exhortation I replied: "Surrender? What's the matter with you? Don't you see these Yanks right onto us? Come along with me and let's break 'em." I still had my right arm and my light sword, and I gave a slight flourish indicating my wish and their direction. They did follow me like brave fellows - most of them too far; for they were a long time getting back [meaning after the war].

Apart from its humor value, I include that last bit as indicative of someone with viscera intact. I seriously doubt he could have done those things with bleeding bowels.

He describes later how his death had been reported to the newspapers and he was brevetted to Major General for this action.

*Well, the confusion was mine. He was indeed wounded more than once; six times in fact. The shot through the hips was during the assault on Petersburg in June of '64. The wound I described above was on the Quaker Road in March of '65.

[colmurph]

Chamberlain had another wound. The one that eventually killed him happened at the Seige of Petersberg, VA and the bullet traversed his abdomen laterally, nicking his bladder. He was brevetted to Brigadier General because he was not expected to live. He eventually did die because of the wound, but not until 1914 after he had served 5 terms as Governor or Maine and served as Chancellor of Bowdine College. He did not receive his Medal of Honor for Gettysburg until many years after the war.