The War President!

[skeeter]

I have for some time wanted to ask the question, "why don't the United States President" become a thoughtful person of his men at war?.

It is know that Prince Charles of Britain meets all planes that carry the British service men who have lost their lives in the Irag war. This also goes for the President of Australia for their servicemen lost in Irag. There may be other countries President that do the same for their men.

But we don't see President George W. Bush meet a plane that lands at Dover AF Base, or anywhere else with the dead from the Irag war. Why! Oh Why!

[Desdichado]

Where the President goes, the press follows. How long do you think he would have any kind of support if every time people turn on the TV he's bringin' home the dead?

On a totally unrelated note, while it's a nice gesture and all, he's there to do a job, whether we agree with how he does it or not. I'd rather he were at his desk doin' what we pay him for. Prince Charles is real busy and all, but when it's said and done he doesn't actually have a job except to be seen.

[Arrow]

We don't know that he isn't there at times. If I were this President given the way Hollyweird,the media and the fifth columnwant to devour him alive they would get darn little out of me.Meeting the caskets publicly would only be seen as a publicity stunt byallof the aforementioned.

Arrow>>>>>

[Seascamp]

Good post and good question Capt. Skeeter plus welcome back, we missed you. As stated, bonny Prince Chuck doesn?t have much to do but be Royal and I suppose that?s good work if ya can get it. As to Pres. Bush, well, he has been the target of hate mongering since forever more and long ago, long before he became Pres. Like Sis, I feel that anything he does will be distorted, turned around and convoluted into more hate mongering. The families of the lost ones don?t need that and I?m sure Pres. Bush knows who is coming home under the flag and has some private thoughts, reflections and some form of communication with the families. That much I trust and have full faith in, amen.

As a VN Vet, I can?t help but remember the homecoming we got; alive or fallen heroes alike, from the media and all their assorted minions of darkness and that lesson is not forgotten, nor will it be. Why in the world would we want history to repeat and do all that one more time?
I recall Pres. Bush privately visited some of the wounded and the media attempted to turn that into fecal material. Just imagine what they could do with a flag covered casket, I shudder to think.

Scamp

[BLUEHAWK]

Skeeter -
How would you suggest the American President, whosoever their name might be, actually accomplish that?... all things considered.

On the other hand, I myself, if President, might very well be inclined to meet every plane returning to Dover... then again, I ain't Prez and have never aspired to that role.

The guy HAS a lot on his plate Skeeter... and I have not a scintilla of doubt that he cares for us, not so much as a minute doubt.

It's bigger than that, would be my hunch, eh?

[colmurph]

Admins.....I think that this belongs in the Politics Thread...not here.

[MORTARDUDE]

Since when did our honored dead from war become political, only ? Bush is a disgrace. Now move it.

Larry

[skeeter]

We of all people in the world, probably show less compassion for our fighting forces. This has been noted in many reports since the end of WW ll. It's very difficult to find a reason that we in America have come to such a less than compassionate state.

Now on the subject of the President that cannot find the time, "at least" show some form of compassion to his troops that sacrifice their lives.

I have a nephew who is a NBC news reporter in Virginia, who for the past year wanted to film a report of the returning dead. The Federal Government has refused to allow any news, videos, or any other type of reports of the Irag war dead or wounded.

In fact they (news media) are not allowed on Dover AF Base, or any reports from Walter Reed Hosptial, or any other place where the dead and wounded are returned..

I think you all know the reason. Where you are a Democrat or Republican it seems to lead to the shame we have for these men and women who has served and died. We have no compassion
Forget about how the image may hurt the President.. He is not human to care?.. Forget about making a trip to a city to raise funds to run for the office of the President. Forget about how it may hurt his image, or how others may feel about him. Forget about how his critics or political opponents spread their remarks.
Have the devotion to show some respect.. That's all it takes

[DMZ-LT]

Welcome back and welcome home Skeeter . Well said.

[BLUEHAWK]

Skeeter -
Let me humbly ask this then... IS it the "federal government" who is not allowing or preventing coverage? IS it our President? Or, could it just possibly be some others within the administration?

I take issue only with the target which has been selected.

Also, I agree that this should be moved to Political.

Or, if it truly IS about compassion alone, then to Family forum or maybe something like Veterans Concerns.

[skeeter]

Bluehawk;

If I was the President of the United States, I would make an effort to meet the plane that brought our war dead home.
If I could not make it, I would put the Vice President, or the Secretary of State.

As it seems now, there is no one. I'm not sure if we even have a military band there, or the Honor Guard.

This is not a "political" issue. It is the United States of American we are talking about. It all stands.. past and present, on how you show the American people we honor our fallen conrads.

Simple lack of respect!

[BLUEHAWK]

I agree Skeeter -
ARE you saying then, please bear with me because I am in NO way challenging your truth as you see it... ARE you saying now, that our President, by his negligence or lack of compassion sends NOBODY of rank in his stead, nor attends in person himself, to meet our fallen and wounded upon their return home.

IS that what you are saying.

If so, then why would that be, if it should be.

I have read his words, and the words of others describing how he handles these matters. It appears, if they spoke truth, that he does make personal visits of his own volition, as often as one would think a man in his position could, considering the frequency with which the planes arrive at Dover.

I should think that men (or women) under his command as CINC are certainly present there in full dress, offering the salute, respect and love of a grateful nation on his and our behalfs.


Having said that, I must admit that if I were President, in my most poetically correct mode... there is no way I would NOT meet every single one of our fallen, and hold the hand of every single one of our wounded upon their return.

Again, this is why I am not a likely Presidential candidate :D

I'd be exhausted from the sorrow...die of a broken heart, and have my VP (welll chosen one would pray!) in CINC spot.

I am NOT making light of your thought Skeeter, I just don't understand what you want him to do...

[skeeter]

We have no way of knowing do we? His Adimistration, where they be his commands, or someone else, have refused to allow the news media to make any reports.. I would think the news media would show "him or someone in his command" that he has some compassion. If it was good for his image, wouldn't you think it would be to his advantage?.

Or is it another matter he will not face?

[Gimpy]

I think you hit the nail right on the head my friend! :(

[williams919]

Not being a fortunate son either. I think President Bush has a very full plate as has already been pointed out. I also feel that there just might be a little more to this than meets the eye. I am not so sure but, I don't know that a visit to Dover would make any families feel any better about their loss. As a father, It wouldn't make me feel any better.
As far as the press goes, they can take all their cameras and shove them. I don't think they should be allowed to any military installation. The only thing they are after is a big story to tell, whether it be truth or fiction. So far in my short life (57 years) the press hasn't painted a very true picture of happenings when it comes to the military.
Now as far as respect being shown by the President, I think he does show his respect, does he to it directly to all families or individuals, NO, but can or could anyone in his position. His representatives should be and I would like to think that they are. Like a military member showing up at the residence to assist the family, widow or anyone else in dealing with their great loss. This happened when a cousin was killed in IRAQ and the family was grateful to have the presence of the other family members of their loved on present.
I think this year is gonna be a bitch session about the President. But win or lose you can bet in 4 years the same bitches will be alive and well and bitching about everything from illegal aliens to bad water.

Just my opinion, could be wrong, have been before.
theemperor

[82Rigger]

My personal opinion is that, since Mr Bush is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces of the United States, he should have grabbed an M16 and been sitting on top of the first damn tank that moved northward out of Kuwait.

Let him put his a** where his mouth is, along with all the other soldiers.

[39mto39g]

Although this should go in the political section,
Our president is "a thoughtful person of his men at war"
Just like you say he isn't ,I can just as easy say he is.

Ron

[Seascamp]

A very unpopular, media ridiculed and ignored War President traveled to the memorial alone. He was given only two minutes to speak and thus delivered the Gettysburg Address. His bravery and openness got him a pistol ball to the back of the head. The mold was destroyed after him and the Presidents that ignored the lesson were murdered by a killer?s bullet. The current Pres. is no Lincoln, not by a long shot, but then who is? A Sen. from MA. I suppose eh, right?

Scamp

[BLUEHAWK]

I do know, with fair certainty, that it WOULD be to his HANDLERS advantage somehow... but for the life of me I cannot understand that either... in fact I understand that even less!

I think they've got what Scout might call "body bagitis", which did not cut it then and ain't cutting it now.

I've seen not one thing in his term of office to date which would suggest that the President is insensitive to those under his command in time of war... I think after the party and handlers get finished channeling his speech, then once in awhile we get to hear what he himself actually thinks... it'd be the same for anyone in that job.

[Seascamp]

I agree, this belongs in the political debate section where Mr. Gimpy can have at it with his long-standing hate agenda, big time. What appeared to be a serious question turned out to be a politically levered argument/agenda. I won?t be fooled again, guaranteed, retired Navy O-6 or no.

Scamp

[SuperScout]

This entire thread started out as a thinly veiled slam at the President, and his alleged lack of compassion and concern. If all political posts are going to be confined to the Political Forum, as they should be, I would encourage the people with their fingers on the buttons to so move it. Until it is moved, here's my two cents worth:

This war is not about the dying or even the injured. And lest ye rock chunkers start bending over to pick up your weapons of choice, kindly remember the cogent words of one each issue Gen. George Patton, Jr: "You don't win the war by dying for your country - you win the war by making the other dumb bastard die for his country." We honor the dead and wounded by how we live our lives; for all the reporters and NBC photographers who want to film the caskets, or interview the wounded, I would simply ask: how many times have you ever gone to visit a wounded warrior, or to console a grieving family, without your obnoxious cameras grinding in the background? Have you ever stopped your ultra busy lives to help build a wheelchair ramp for a legless warrior, now recuperating at home, one who is still anxious to know how his buddies are doing, and if given a chance, would rejoin them today?

How many of you chest-thumping reporters have ever gone to a national cemetary on Veterans' Day, to honor the dead, to plant a small flag, to place a wreath of remembrance, to console a survivor, without your obnoxious cameras grinding in the background? Or is your whining protest about the inability to film a flag-draped coffin nothing more than revolting self-promotion?

More importantly, we honor the dead and the wounded by supporting the living warriors, by sending them frequent care-packages, by visiting the families left behind to insure that they are OK, by serving as surrogate parents for the little ones, and by (GASP!!, can we say this in the age of stupid Political Correctness??), yes, by even praying for our warriors, for their successful mission accomplishment and for their safe return. How many of you poor deprived reporters and photographers have even lifted a single finger to do any of these?

What most malcontents don't realize is that George W. Bush is truly a man of enormous compassion and caring, and his visits to grieving families, and recuperating warriors is often (and usually) done in such as way so as not to be a media event. Doing it any other way would be just showboating, and beneath him. When he does make a public appearance at a military base, the swarms of appreciative warriors is in response to his connection with them, and their voluntary appearance with him is evidence that reciprocity is at work. With the previous CinC, men had to be ordered to show up and become background fodder for the cameras.

[catman]

Col...could not have said it better. Thanks for finding the true words to set this thread straight.

Trav

[Gimpy]

I agree with everything you've said!

Can you belive that?

However, your eloquent and expressive account left out the MOST important way we can "honor" and pay homage to those valliant troops that are no longer with us AND the returning wounded & disabled who are recovering as we speak! Was that by "design"........or just an "oversight" on your part??

MAKE SURE THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS is FULLY FUNDED to accomodate every single health care need required to insure these troops are NOT treated as some of US have been in the past (and still today). And, to fully fund the programs within the VA to fullfill that "promise" that G.W. Bush made in 2000 when he said "help is on the way".

Which BTW............he has failed MISERABLY to keep!

PS......Scamp,..............if that appears to be a "long-standing hate agenda".............then you might want to get a new "translator" to offer an explanation of the "difference" between "hate" and the "TRUTH" my friend.

[SEATJERKER]

..."HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN"...

I say there's some things worth fighting for
What about our freedom and this piece of ground
We didn't get to keep 'em by backing down
Now they say we don't realize the mess we're getting in
Before you start your preaching let me ask you this my friend

Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

They took all the footage off my T.V.
Said it's too disturbing for you and me
It'll just breed anger that's what the experts say
If it was up to me I'd show it everyday
Some say this country's just out looking for a fight
Well after 9/11 man I'd have to say that's right

Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

Now I've been there with the soldiers
Who've gone away to war
And you can bet that they remember
Just what they're fightin' for

Have you forgotten all the people killed?
Some went down like heros in that Pennsylvania field
Have you forgotten about our Pentagon?
And all the loved ones that we lost and those left to carry on
Don't you tell me not to worry about bin Laden
Have you forgotten?


Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

Have you forgotten?

Have you forgotten?


...Well Have you,...

...The naysayers can sit in their righteous safe homes, and spew all they want about spendings/costs of waging this war on terror, but the answer is within "time",... with time, we may heal some of the scarring from the attack on OUR Nation, or we could have sat back, and waited until the NEXT time they attack us on OUR soil,...

...We all know how the "behind the scenes" work works, and I would say at this point in "time", all the "bigwigs" are pretty buzy on a daily basis, or to say the least, on a "minutely" basis,...

...I don't expect the President to go to any, or every soldier's return strictly because the media has turned everything into a circus, even one of the last honoring steps of a soldier,...

...I can personally name a lost loved one in the twin towers, can any of you,...

...The world has turned into not a very nice place due to a few uncertian few who have deceided to wreak their demise upon all,...

...wipe the slate clean with any, and all means nesc before it comes close to here again,...

...Or do you want your Grandchildren to fight it

...

[skeeter]

It seems some want to bring this post-subject into a political situation. I personally feel it has no political bounds.

Some may say, a leader leads a nation. We have in the past found some who didn't know the meaning of the word..
We can go back to the Korea war days, people in this country questioned our involvement in this war as they still had the short span of the horrible memories from the end of WW ll.

We had a mass call-up of the Army, Maries, Navy, Air Force reserves that had fought in WW ll, and the country was still suffering from it. We fought a 3 year "police action" as it was called. We had the enemy beat across the Yalu River by a General who knew how to fight a war, but a President who couldn't allow the General to get the credit and it became a political issue. And from that we came running (retreating) down the mountains sides of North Korea, fighting military men with their heads hanging low, knowing very well they were defeated. When they came back to America shores, the people of this great nation didn't know what to think of these fighting men. Therefore, the people lost faith in their military forces.. "Not the fighting men that lost the confidence", it was the leadership..

We didn't learn from that war, we had to get into another one.. Vietnam !. And another leadership situation.. And again, "no victory",, just so many lives lost, and the fighting men came home under a cloud of protests, many with their heads hanging low, and to this day many of the American people cannot "honor" these men. All due to the leaders we had here in USA that did not know the meaning of war and how you show the people of America how to bestow the gratitude to our fighting men who returned alive or the returning dead. Lack of respect is the true word here.

Same could be said of the Gulf War.. not a real victory, no surrender from the leader of the opposing forces, but if it was carried out as the General wanted, we wouldn't have the war as we have today.

Again the leadership is in the same mold, those returning from Irag get the disregard treatment. Many fly into various military bases, only to have the local news to make reference of their return. Therefore the American people get the feeling we treat these men and women as if they shouldn't be fighting for freedom for a war we shouldn't be involved in.

Now I know the President cannot meet every returning aircraft, where it be returing of the dead, or the returning of our troops.
But he should make an effort to meet some, and he standing in front of the honor guard with his right hand up to his eyebrow in that honorable great American salute when the troops embark from the aircraft, and those under the flag draped coffins. Then he shows the American people how we respect these fighting forces, and just maybe, with that the American people will start to show more respect for the men and women and the presidency he has been voted on to serve.

[SuperScout]

There was indeed a paucity of leadership at the top on both the civilian side and the military during the Korean War and in Vietnam. Not only paucity of leadership, but grand ineptitude, resulting in grand loss of life, with little resolution. Can you spell Truman and Johnson? The lack of clear enunciation of the mission, of an overall strategy, or of an end-state, coupled with wet-finger in the air type of war-planning, and the seeds of disaster, or at the best, stalemate, were sown. We are still reaping the harvest of discontent for their amateurish performance.

Neither of these losing scenarios has been placed in the fast-forward review of Gulf War I nor the current and progressing war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gone is the micro-management style of the LBJ White House, where practically every B-52 misison was planned. Gone is the number-crunching, body-counting idiocy of Robert McNamara, whose pathological addiction to inane technologies cost hundreds if not thousands of lives. Gone is the senior military brass like Generals Harold K. Johnson and Earle Wheeler who were too lazy to study how to conduct a successful counter-insurgency program, and too spineless to resign when they failed to lobby the LBJ White House for the power to fight the war properly.

There is no comparsion with the prior administrations and wars with this one. Grasping the obvious need to conduct violent counter-terrorist campaigns, ignoring the internationalists' call for more useless negotiations, and enunciating a clear-cut objective that was embraced as discerable and achievable, the senior command structure, this administrtion embarked upon a grand mission of fulfilling its constitution mandate of protecting America.

Contrary to the ways of the past, returning personnel and units are greeted with near-universal enthusiasm and joy, are showered with the sincere gratitude of genuinely proud parents, neighbors, friends, and simple, ordinary citizens, and are rightfully regarded as real American Heroes. When the President does greet a returning ship of war, to rightfully thank the crew for a job well done, the nattering negativists strike up their little band, clang their little cymbals of pessimism, grumble that not every conceivable need has been met, and pout like egocentric children because they are ignored.

[skeeter]

SS.

Why is it you want to seperate the Democrats vs Republicians and not their actions?

In my post above I did not exclude any President. All have one agendas, and that can be said in one word. "egotism"

Now you have made some good view points, and I agree with most of all, but you failed to show some on the Democrat side.

I don't intend to spending time here on a subject that another person in a higher office of this land can achieve with his own actions.

So I will back to my daily life , and you can go back to building Better Built Homes.

[SuperScout]

Correct me if I'm wrong, which is rare :D , but wasn't the original topic you started out here a knock on the President? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it also you that raised the issue of the Korean War and the Vietnam War, and the tawdry examples of presidential leadership those eras demonstrated? I'm simply responded to your posts.

Have a superb day!
Brice

[skeeter]

To
39mto39g: I feel the President does care for the the troops, and the American people. However, he just has a unfamillar way of showing it.

SEATJERKER: I'm sure if anyone witness the fall of the Twin Towers, will never forget the savage act.. That was a terrorist act from a foreign country and not from any American.
We have tried to apprehend those that did this horrible act, and maybe some day we can achieve that feat.

SuperScout: I think my post didn't excude any president.. I made reference to Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, George H.W Bush and George W. Bush if that was your point Although I didn't mention any president by name, it was enlightenment of their actions.

My post wasn't to chastise the president on his political misfortunes, but to show the American people he can and should treat the troops in a more honorable setting.
His famous "fly-on" the carrier Abraham Lincoln wasn't his best way to show the Navy and the people the honor. It was all a photo-op for his re-election, and it back-fired.
If it was his idea to do it, or others in his cabinet, this news media jumped on it.
What he should have done is wait on the NAS North Island dock for the carrier to tie up and go aboard. Instead, he had the carrier to stay at sea another day to give him time to get to California and go through the Navy testing program so he could withstand the jet flight to the carrier. I know the procedures that involves any medical test.

I think the man can change all this negative image he carries, if he shows the people he can be a peoples president. The news media will make him that should he want to change..

[Gimpy]

He don't.........and....he WON'T!

[SuperScout]

If I could search out there in ether land, I could find that picture somebody posted showing Senator Leahy, D-VT in his flight suit, standing beside a jet, on a carrier, smiling like the proverbial excrement-eating skunk. There was no press ballyhoo or bellyha, nobody wringing their hands or any of that. So it was a great photo opportunity for the President to show up the way he did. And I could tell that those waiting on deck were really pissed to be there. And who did he spend the bulk of his time with? Not the admiral or the officers, but the workerbees that inhabit the flight deck, probably the most dangerous piece of Naval acreage in the world. I think the only folks with whom he carries a negative image are Democrats who have this visceral hatred because they are no longer in power, and they simply can't deal with it.

Back when the President visited Ft. Hood several months ago, there were not enough tickets available for all the people who wanted to be in the stadium or the gymhouse; units were scrabbling for more, as there were thousands of people that were turned away, simply because there was not enough room. Whether you can or will admit it, he's truly beloved by the men, enlisted and officer alike, and the reciprocity of his genuine appreciation for them is evident. At least that's what I surmised when I was invited to talk to him, or witnessed in the crowds around him.

[BLUEHAWK]

"Although Charlene (Sgt. Cain's mom) took all her sick leave and vacation days and her co-workers donated a hundred hours of theirs, she and Kenneth (his dad) eventually had to return to Wisconsin (from Walter Reed). After they left, Cain's warrior spirit drained away. One day, he refused to go to physical therapy, and when he was wheeled there against his will he was sullen and uncooperative. Frequent phone calls from his men in Tikrit - another amenity unknown to casualties of earlier wars - would cheer him up for a few minutes, but then he'd start to miss them, and sink lower in spirits. Captain Blain (his 88 Mike CO in Iraq) sent his father and wife, both of whom live in the Washington area, to visit. Celebrities passed through, too - Cain met the actor Gary Sinise, who played a Vietnam War amputee in 'Forrest Gump,' and the country singer Shania Twain. One day, President Bush sat on the edge of his bed and asked him if he wanted anything. Cain told the President that his men needed water. When Cain spoke to them by phone two days later, they told him that they suddenly had more water than they could possibly use."

THE NEW YORKER magazine
March 8, 2004
Page 69

:cl:

[skeeter]

I bring back this old original post on the subject of not allowing pictures, news reports of the dead returning from Irag..
It seems this all started in 1991 when the State Department under the Presidency of George H.W. Bush, and non other than Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense at the time who was in charge of the Pentagon would not allow any pictures, news reports from the dead returning from Desert Storm.

From all that, it seems we have the same person.. Dick Cheney as V/P and in my terms the real President giving all the "general" orders here, and pushing GWB on the stump to except the credit or criticism.

Now I hear of the "Dover Test" and here is a web site that may give some light on the matter.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/column.shields.opinion.dover/

I don't know where, when, and how this will end. But we should give those returning in the coffins the respect they are due.

[SuperScout]

Let's give our returning dead the respect they rightfully deserve, but allowing photographers or gaggling reporters hardly seems like a fitting tribute to a fallen warrior. What honor do they bring to the scene? What tribute of gratitude to provide to the surviving family members? What decency to they convey by their very presence? None, None, and duh, None.

And according to my history books, Dick Cheney was not the Secretary of State during the George H.W. Bush administration, and at last report, the Secretary of State never worked out of the Pentagon. I think you missed the third wire, there, skeeter. Wave off, go around, and see if you can find the carrier again. :D

[BLUEHAWK]

I believe that the honor brought to the scene is to have allowed the free flow of visual information.

It is good for people to see how our fallen are honored, in any numbers as may come to pass. Seeing helps the non-combatant, patriot and family member to grieve. War is not for the politician, the wounded and fallen alone, if we intend to be victorious.

Visual information, as any warrior knows, has a tendency to focus the mind and heart. If the mind and heart are focused, then the vote or the action/inaction tends to get focused, more efficaciously.

Here are the possible kinds of human information:

Spiritual
Audio
Tactile
Visual

That is what we have to work with, so as to make informed decisions.

p.s. The issue of "gaggling reporters" is worthy of an entire separate discussion.

For ANY photographer or journalist to EVER presume that they have some special right to invade private personal or public space under Constitutional protection represents, to me, a failure of our law enforcement or law making capability.... and their own individual moral codes.

Damn them :d:

They need to keep a respectful distance... get the money, get the picture, get the story, but get the hell OUT of a personal space, at far remove... and have the decency to teach this simple concept in your academies... for the love of sacredness.

[skeeter]

superscout:

I meant to say Richard B. Cheney was the Secretary of Defense, which works from the Pentagon. Term of Office .. March 21, 1989-January 20, 1993.

Mr. Cheney, might have had the idea to be Sec. of State also.