Time for a time out....?

[Seascamp]

Maybe we should take a time out from hurling personal insults and cheep shots, the perennial and hateful Bush bashing extravaganza, counting Kerry?s warts and take a moment pop our heads up and have a look around.

Spain just got hit by terrorists and two hundred plus are dead. That?s a ?who done it?, more or less, but Al Qaeda is high on the list of suspects. It would appear that bin Laden?s war from hell has served up a reminder. My heart hurts for Spain today.

It?s alleged that UN Officials have been on the take and ripping off the Iraqi people via the supposed ?oil for food? program, plus have been serving up tainted medical supplies and decrepit and un eatable food supplies, thus causing many, many child deaths in Iraq.
It is also alleged that France and at least Russia have been in on the take in cahoots with the UN in ripping off Iraq. Fifty billion $ in a French escrow account that was supposedly for helping the Iraqi people is now the focal point and France is very, very reluctant to open the books and let the world have a look-see as to what has really been going on. Perhaps Kofi Annon has a real can of worms on his plate right now as the credibility of the UN is on the plate, big time, and a UN crisis of unprecedented magnitude is boiling on down the tracks.

On the domestic political front, at least three of the DNC contenders; Dean, Kerry and Edwards, have a stake driven way, way into the ground on the Iraq-UN issue and now may have to re-script their script. It should be very interesting as to what the new script will be and if or how all this alleged Iraq-UN/France/Russian corruption will be handled. My guess is that they will back away from it and suppress that part of the election season argument/challenge/agenda. Or it will be dismissed as propaganda/current administration lies. Either way, it looks to me like a cup of hemlock just waiting for a real deep drink. But we?ll see what we see, as usual.

Scamp

[melody1181]

Well its seems that you want everyone to take a break but at the same time you toke a little swip at the Libs.

It is a very sad thing that happened. On the news today they have talked about the 5 arrested and some documents found that tie al qaeda to it.

[Seascamp]

Well begging your pardon Lass. How stupid of me to comment on something that?s a news item and then submit an opinion and some conjecture. If that?s a swipe at the Liberals, than I?m guilty as all heck and shut my mouth. I forget my place sometimes I guess eh.

[melody1181]

I didn't mean my post to sound so serious...well the first part any way.

[skeeter]

I have been amazed how so many can complain they didn't have a chance at the good life, when yet they are the first to complain about those that gave them the opportunity to achieve it.

Being the "liberals" as the givers.

[reconeil]

YOU'RE BOTH RIGHT.

1. We should pay more attention to what's going on in devastated Spain.

2. Dems/Libs shouldn't be taken seriously on serious matters.

3. That's about it.

Neil

[BLUEHAWK]

Scamp -

To the topic you threaded... what I always come back to is the unexpected, there's always always the unexpected in these matters. It'll be very interesting to discover what it'll be this time around :cd:

By the way, I think I, little ole Zoomie Me, have maybe come up with a fresh new Foreign Policy for the USA, and a method of dealing with the UN at the same time... I'll tell ya 'bout it later :D

[Seascamp]

Ya I know Blue, but in conjunction the two topics I mentioned make our petty squabbles , insult hurling and cheep shots here pale to insignificance, where it all belongs by the way. If the allegations against the UN turn out to be true, we in on living history and the world has, in fact, changed forever. Combine this with the tragic events in Spain and we have an overdose of possible/probable change in the wind.

And for sure, these possible/probable changes have a horrendous impact on our domestic political situation. If the Kerry and Bush election crews are not burning the midnight oil doing some repositioning and re scripting as we speak, then both mobs ought to be fired and both camps begin anew. Thinking about that prospect, the thought comes to mind that that wouldn?t be such a bad idea. Both camps need some people with common sense, leadership skills, vision and a desire to cut the spin crap for once and study the road ahead. But we couldn?t do that, nope, no way. Too bad for us, eh.

And sure Blue, fresh ideas about the US relationship with the UN may be welcome right about now as those things that appear to be carved in stone may very well become totally obsolete with the bright light of focused spotlights and revalations, who knows.

Scamp

[BLUEHAWK]

Truth has a way of being difficult to hear sometimes... and your thought, Scamp, about our petty squabbles paling rings too true in the light you report...

- I was thinking about it after first reading your thread and then hearing the Sunday morning talking heads news... almost as if while we are looking one way, as is said often here on PF, our six is exposed.

- I stand before you respectfully, one of the rare (if not the only) bravehearts on Patriot Files who has endeavored to defend the United Nations, lo' even long before when first our spacecraft landed upon the moon since I thought it better their UN flag be planted thence than our own... as a gift of humility. Jesus taught us to be humble, and it seems we are better off attempting to emulate his example... all evidence to the contrary.

Yet now, I find my mind changing, tho my heart never shall... so true is my prayer for world peace and an end to war. Heavy fire having been aimed in my direction yea even from brothers here again and again did not thwart my resolve... until now. I have arrived at the conclusion that the UN no longer CAN serve the role it has valiantly strived to play in world affairs. There will never be words to express my highest esteem for the Honorable Kofi Anan, a gentleman and diplomat the likes of Disraeli.

Yet why has a mind of my determination changed... because the enemy is no longer of a nationality, carries not one flag into battle, nor wears a colors known, no longer is a body in the field or upon seas and in air honorably presenting arms visibly there to be met by the loyal opposition in a contest to the finish... and an honorable truce.

- You, and our confreres, doubtless will correct me here if I am in error... but I believe more of our warriors are being maimed and lost by means of surreptitious bombs than by head on combat (wherein their demise would be all but certain in detail)... and alas the dawn of a warfare hitherto unknown in scale or ferocity.

Indeed, the enemy hath no need even to explode as many bombs as it has... they have merely to SAY (by all means electronic and otherwise) that they will.

What manner of foe is this against whom a United Nations (which is not and never has been "united") might arrive at a meaningful prevail? Indescribable, and they became aware, long since, that it was THIS kind of enemy they must become.

We are, for all meaningful purposes, alone or might one day be. I have learned from our bretheren here that the warrior deals with what is at the time, and longs for peace.

Onward then :j:

[reconeil]

As to: "The unexpected" (re. clandestine murderers or terrorists) or: "Both camps" coming-up with sensible solutions (believe asking the impossible since never confronted before),...I'm sorry saying that there just aren't any rational or sensible solutions, as long as such murdering of innocent (ie. non-combatant) men, women and children remain: "The unexpected".

Also, and since a greatly divided world doesn't in concert condemn all such mass-murderers and/or mass-assassins (some very rich nations even support, finance and give refuge to such murderers),...it's more than likely that terrorism will go on forever, or at least until: "The Cow jumps over The Moon". Sorry.

The-bottom-line and/or the way I see things,...is that until someone figures-out how to make murderous fanatics, their financiers and supporters suffer DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES for their despicable actions, and somehow turn what has to be the most cost effective and least dangerous FOR THE ENEMY form of warfare against them, we're all in deep-do-do.

Then too, and since half of America in general has already pretty-much forgotten: "9/11" (sure seems so amongst some politicos) and don't even act as if at war (sure seems so amongst some politicos),...how-the-hell can ANYONE of ANY BENT IN CONTROL...hope to even win such a war?

Besides, I believe that politically debating ANY WAR is stupid,...and places: "America's Finest" and/or The U.S. Military in more lethal of a situation, than should ever need be.

Neil :d: :b:

[BLUEHAWK]

Recon -
You've hit upon two matters that I can only repeat as statements... whatever little personal thoughts I have of my own about them seem pretty superfluous, all things considered:

1. Yeah, why does the whole world people NOT rise up and condemn terrorism :-(

2. Yeah, how in the world IS it possible for half (or so) of Americans to already have forgotten 9/11 :-(

'bout the time I start in reminding others outside of PF about such things, I get accused again of being a militarist war-monger... cripes.

[reconeil]

You should be happy, just being called a: "Militaristic war-monger".

Hell Man,...most Dem/Lib: "Big Cheeses", and/or foreign-friendly notables having The Public's Ear PREDOMINANTLY (unfortunately), would label you: "A RACIST",...just for speaking your mind and/or the absolute truth. Truly sad state of affairs for America.

Neil :d: :b:

[SuperScout]

First of all, heaping paeans of praise upon Kofi Anan is not my idea of embracing either reality or common decency. He is simply part of an inept bunch of corrupt extortionists that has acted frequently at cross-purposes to the United States. My prediction is that the UN will stonewall, obfuscate, and impede anything that faintly resembles a thorough investigation of the "Food-For-Oil" fund, and the suspected collusion between the French, Russians, Iraqi thugs, and UN thugs.

When things got really tough in Iraq, the UN offices bolted and ran, after first demonstrating their gross incompetence by refusing our offers of security forces around their building. Now, they're clamoring to get back into Iraq to show us how to go about nation-building? Is there an example of their success story out there somewhere? Before we even think about letting the UN cross the border, they need to provide a complete accounting for the $50 Billion or so that went into the FFO fund, and then shoot those guiltyof corruption and graft. Until then, they have no credibility.

The Spanish Socialists' acquiescence to terrorists is an example of how not to confront this manifestation of evil. They should have known that diplomacy, negotiation, discussions or tea parties on manicured lawns will not alter the mindset of those bound and determined to slaughter us, the infidels. And yes, Neil, you can add my name to the growing list of Militaristic War-mongers, proudly, I might add!

As to the lack of world-wide condemnation of terrorists: there hasn't been much of a world-wide poll, but where there has been, the results are evident. Simply observe the progress in Afghanistan, Iraq, (and I suspect Libya) where people have been given a choice in how they want to live.

We have tended to forget 9-11 because we are a people of instant gratification, we have been distracted by such lunacy as the Super Bowl half-time debauchery, we have a political segment that wants to blame America for the attack, and we have forgotten that this is an entirely different type of war than ever before.

[Seascamp]

My longstanding quandary about the UN is if they should be considered Organized Crime in denial or Disorganized Crime in denial. Maybe both definitions fit, given some defined circumstance. I see that the newly selected Spanish Socialists are demanding the UN be given the reins in Iraq in exchange for Spain?s continued support with the war on terror. Given that the Spanish Socialists were booted out of power eight years ago for issues of lawlessness and corruption, I somehow get a funny twitch in my sanity check mind?s eye over their apparent high vacuum lip-lock on the UN butt now. Could it be that birds of a feather are coming together in common cause to ?help? the Iraqi people a whole bunch more?

Just seems to get stinkier and stinkier, eh? Or am I just seeing weird aberrations caused by the current illogical logic flying through here abouts? :cd:

Scamp

[BLUEHAWK]

Guys -

Wait 'til I finish the snetence (homage a Sargent Bones :D) afor ye opens fire agin' at the ole Zoomie...

- I believe, and will always, that the UN COULD'VE worked (League of Nations too fellers :D) to help keep the peace on this world. They do some very positive things to make simple people's lives better, and I do praise them for that... the workers who do the work I mean.

- Can't speak for the higher ups at UN, but I regard Mr. Anan (thusfar) as a pretty decent sort. It must be real hard to do what he does, managing all those egos and national egos and international egos. I dunno though, proof is in the pudding, and you are correct to say it ain't much of anywhere... and ain't likely to get there anytime soon either.

Oh well... onward.

[reconeil]

Can't argue against any organization that supposedly is there to stop people from killing each other gratuitously. After all, what better type of World Organization can there be?

However, and the only problem I have about The UN is with MY/YOUR/OUR Country,...and/or how could The United States of America be so stupid as to even belong to The UN?

No other people on earth IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS would even consider belonging to an organization where a goodly half of all the nations belonging are either envious of US, despise democracy and US,...and many of which downright hate our guts and wish us dead.

And besides,...God invented good and dependable friends and allies,...long before inventing a pompously do nothing and/or accomplish very little (no doubt even less without The USA piggybank), plus having to move elsewhere United Nations.

The only thing I find impressive about The United Nations,...is its name. Sounds so impressive, and as it might be of some importance or great relevence. Unfortunately,...it's of no importance whatsoever, except for politicos and/or other Party(both ways) Animals. I hear that even tea-toatling A-A-Arabs booze-it-up, when the hit New York and kick the sand off their heels. Did I hear wrong?

Neil :d: :b:

[Seascamp]

Ha ha Neil, ya didn?t hear wrong. Before they even clear the region on the way to the Big Apple they can be seen in the bars of Bahrain slamming them back until they pop their camel hobbles clear off there besotted heads, how funny and a real hoot to observe. :ek:

Scamp

[BLUEHAWK]

I know... maybe it is wrong-headed, but if there could be a way for all nations to have one place to join together for the sake of keeping the peace, it could be a good thing.

[reconeil]

Again can't argue with your concept. It truly would be wonderful.

Unfortunately,...what you and most everyone (naturally of well-intent) would like,...is physically and literally impossible, since NOT: "All nations" RULERS think as you and most everyone (naturally of well-intent).

In this REAL WORLD many places despise and actually hate the thought of relinquishing: "Power to The People" or changing to a democracy,...and nowhere is such a dictatorial mindset fervently held than in The Middle East. Hell, even their people supportingly go along with such omnipotent dictatorial rule, since brainwashed for thousands of years that disobedience to ones rulers, is the worst sin imaginable. Whereas, fighting and killing Infidels is one of the highest of callings for such lifelong schooled and/or purposefully brainwashed fanatics.

Sorry Blue,...but I guess You/We will just have to figure-out a better way. Whatever, history most certainly tells us that The UN (except for Care Packages and such),...is about as needed and worthwhile as tits on a bull. Well,...maybe not in San Francisco? :D :D :D

Neil

[BLUEHAWK]

Recon brother -

Uncharacteristically and non-linearly I am gonna begin with the BACK end of your post...YESSSSSSS! we GOTTA figure out a better way, yessiree. Thing is, maybe THE better way is the way it is being done today? I'm one of those guys who does not wait for somebody else to do what I think oughta get done... I give 'em plenty chances... and wait patiently, but if'n they do NOT do their duty as assigned, then I do what I consider to be mine. In my small opinion, America under current leadership, has taken the step I would have, had I myself been in charge. There's folks bailin' on us Recon... sure am glad we're on the same team.

Elsewhere here and often it has been rightly stated that the enemy today is not a traditional enemy in the field, to the front of whom one might enter into military discourse, the better one surmounting an engagement. All attempts, including UN, hitherto having failed... what is the option?

The DoD would be best named Department of War, as it was long ago.

For we are at war.

In time of war, we stick with the CINC.

Now, as to the first part of your post... a few words of Zooooomie nuisance fer ye :D

I am content to state, without equivocation, that I have learned a vital piece from Patriot Files... to wit: WE DEAL WITH WHAT IS; and far less with things as we wish them to be. Hence...