IED question

[BLUEHAWK]

What is the character of these "new" IED that are being said to be starting to be used in Iraq against our boys now? And, is it true that they are coming from Syria or Iran?

And, WTF, exacraly (other than larger charges) would make them so much more lethal? 14 Marines is a lot of Marines... in other words.

And, while we're at it (IF we're "at it") why were those type devices not being used in the past already?

[Bill Farnie]

They have been used before

IED = Bobby Trap ..... same/same different name

construction may be different but ?? "A Rose by Any Other Name"

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by Bill Farnie They have been used before

IED = Bobby Trap ..... same/same different name

construction may be different but ?? "A Rose by Any Other Name"

Bill, it's being quoted as having become something new and extra special.

WTF are they talkin' about?

[Matzos]

Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) / Booby Traps

An IED can be almost anything with any type of material and initiator. It is a ?homemade? device that is designed to cause death or injury by using explosives alone or in combination with toxic chemicals, biological toxins, or radiological material. IEDs can be produced in varying sizes, functioning methods, containers, and delivery methods. IEDs can utilize commercial or military explosives, homemade explosives, or military ordnance and ordnance components.

They are unique in nature because the IED builder has had to improvise with the materials at hand. Designed to defeat a specific target or type of target, they generally become more difficult to detect and protect against as they become more sophisticated.

IEDs fall into three types of categories:

Package Type IED
Vehicle-Borne IEDs (VBIEDs)
Suicide Bomb IED

Improvised devices are characterized by varying employment techniques. In most of the techniques shown below, an unexploded ordnance (UXO) can easily be engineered to replace a mine or explosive device using one of the several following techniques:

Coupling . Coupling is a method of linking one mine or explosive device to another, usually with detonating cord. When the first device is detonated, it also detonates the linked explosive. This technique is often used to defeat countermine equipment, such as mine rollers

Rolling. The roller will pass over the initial, unfuzed device and set off the second fuzed device. This in turn detonates the overpassed device underneath the clearing vehicle. When the linked devices are directional fragmentation mines, they can create a large, lethal engagement area.

Boosting. Buried mines, UXOs, or other explosive devices are stacked on top of one another. The device buried deepest from the surface is fuzed. Fuzing only the deepest ordnance helps mask no- and low-metal explosive hazards placed near the surface. This reduces the probability of detection by metal detectors, and it increases the force of the blast.

Sensitizing antitank (AT) mines. On some nonmetallic AT mines, the pressure plate is cracked and the spring is removed to reduce the pressure required to initiate the mine. Similarly, the pressure plate can be removed from metallic AT mines to create the same effect. A pressurefuzed AP mine can be placed on the top of an AT mine, thus creating a very large AP mine as an alternative method.

Daisy chaining. AP mines may be used in daisy chains linked with other explosive hazards. Enemy forces may link the mines together with trip wire or detonating cord. When the initial mine is detonated, the other mines may detonate. This may also create large, lethal engagement areas.

[Doc.2/47]

IED=Improvised Explosive Device

An IED that uses a grenade for it's charge is not as dangerous as one that uses 500lbs. of TNT or a van full of fertilizer/desel oil.

I hear that useing cell phones in the IED, and to detonate same, is real popular with the ragheads. Look through binocs. When juicy target approches package-hit redial-BOOM!

[BLUEHAWK]

I think, then, what the news story was discussing was probably an AT or a boosted UXO device...

The story made it sound like this kind of device was something new, uncommon or unused in the past, and (for some reason) coming from Iran or Syria especially...

From what has been said here above, it actually just appears to have been a larger type of IED, already in the arsenal.

Thanks, all...

[Jerry D]

I heard on the news that they are getting shape charges from Iran to take out APC's and other up armored vehicles :( as I hear it a shape charge focuses the explosion in one direction increasing it's effectiveness against armored targets including Tanks!

[BLUEHAWK]

What means "shape charge"?

[Jerry D]

Blue from what they reported on the News it was something like a Claymore but with more ball bearings and more powerful explosive charge.

[Chas H]

The RPGs that you see on the shoulder of almost every young dude in Iraq are a shaped charge weapon. There's no ball bearings in it. The device is cup shaped and when detonated fires a focused stream of extremely hot gas able to penetrate thick armor. It's nothing new and has been made mosly by the USSR and lately Russia for 30 years or so. Maybe Bush should be asking Putin about this and why are they turning up in Iraq.

[BLUEHAWK]

So the shape of per se plays a role in how effective/powerful the round is?

A Tanker buddy of mine explained to me that the sabout round is actually (I think he said) composed not of a "bullet" but of highly compressed gunpowder.

Is that a shaped kind of charge also?

[PHO127]

In Iraq and is an EOD Class A disarm Agent. (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) Here is what they are up against. When our troops ran over the Iraqi army in the first days of the war the commanders failed to secure or destroy most of the ammunition dumps that were taken. As we moved on with unsecured ammo dumps the insurgents went in and removed thousands of tons of high explosives mostly in the form of artillery shells. The Iraqi army used a South African model of artillery in 155mm with a shell weighing around 250 lbs. Several of these shells are daisy chained together along side or under a road and are command detonated by a cell phone. or other device. The Car bombs are filled with 3 or 4 of these shells and a van or light truck may carry as much as 2,000 or more lbs. DEADLY. My sons EOD team is currently disarming between 5 and 7 or more of these devices a day.

Your Tanker buddy knows not of what he speaks, A Tank Sabot round is simply a heavy metal rod (depleted uranium or similar) that is about 3/4 of an inch in diameter with a base. It penetrates the armor and sends a spalling charge of molten metal all through the tank incinerating everthing inside.

[Chas H]

An 155mm arty shell weighs about 98 lbs. However, 3 daisy chained together could make a total weight of about 295 lbs.
Even one 155 shell is gonna produce a very deadly blast.
The Sabot is as PHO explained, with tungsten being also used.

[PHO127]

SOUTH AFRICAN = +- 250.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by PHO127 Your Tanker buddy knows not of what he speaks, A Tank Sabot round is simply a heavy metal rod (depleted uranium or similar) that is about 3/4 of an inch in diameter with a base. It penetrates the armor and sends a spalling charge of molten metal all through the tank incinerating everthing inside.

I think what he was talking about is the material which surrounds the metal rod you refer to? The rod is clearly visible coming out the end of the round, but the round itself is a whole lot bigger than 3/4 inch.

In other words, a sabot round is not a "bullet" in the conventional sense. The rod is propelled at ultra high speed by the densely packed explosives around it... ? This is why I am asking about what a shaped charge is.

Seems to me, every round has some sort of shape, so a "shaped charge" must mean something else.

Anyhoo, he was TC on an M1 in Desert Storm, so I figure he and you have it right, and I misunderstood someone, or failed to ask just the right question. He showed me one of those "bases" being referred to up above... it looked to be about the diameter size of an old V8 engine piston.

[Chas H]

PHO, I'm having difficulty visualizing a 155mm round that weighs 250 lbs. An 8" (203mm) shell weighs 200 pounds and stands close to 3 ft tall. A 155 shell of 250 lbs would be around 7 ft tall.
Do you have a site for your claim of 250 lbs?

[SuperScout]

Shape charges refers more to chemical energy vs. the penetrator rod which = kinetic energy. In a shape charge, the initial explosion causes a cone to collapse around the point of impact, concentrating the chemical energy into a very small area, thereby accentuating the force. It's a physics thingie, more intelligently explained by His Eloquent Uniqueness, Sir Scamp.

IED is nothing more than a 21st century name for a booby trap, much like we encountered decades ago in a land faraway. Back then and back there, booby traps could range anywhere from a .30 caliber round triggered to shoot one person, or a 500 pound bomb that didn't explode on impact with the ground, but was used by Chuck later. Chuck could rig these suckers for unsuspecting folks, much like Achmed is doing to our warriors now in Iraq and Afghanistan. The level of sophistication may have improved, but an IED is still a booby trap.

"sabot" literally means wooden shoe, and it is that shape of the propellant charge around the penetrator rod that gives it its name. Now go to your room and memorize all the facts! :D

[PHO127]

the round is from the SA G5 155mm I went to google search but it does not give shell weight, I have seen pictures of them in trucks from my son and they are long. My only other reference is from my son who has to disarm them.

[PHO127]

The newest and latest is the G6 that outshoots moves and out everythings we have. has a rocket assist round with a 70 K range. Nominal range is 35K with extended range to 48k. This Artillery design is based on designs and theories from Gerry Bull the designer of the Iraq super gun and assinated by person or persons unknown. Bull is generally acknowledged as the finest artillery designer in the modern era. We Wouldn't listen to him so he went private and sold to the world.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by SuperScout Shape charges refers more to chemical energy vs. the penetrator rod which = kinetic energy. In a shape charge, the initial explosion causes a cone to collapse around the point of impact, concentrating the chemical energy into a very small area, thereby accentuating the force. It's a physics thingie, more intelligently explained by His Eloquent Uniqueness, Sir Scamp.

IED is nothing more than a 21st century name for a booby trap, much like we encountered decades ago in a land faraway. Back then and back there, booby traps could range anywhere from a .30 caliber round triggered to shoot one person, or a 500 pound bomb that didn't explode on impact with the ground, but was used by Chuck later. Chuck could rig these suckers for unsuspecting folks, much like Achmed is doing to our warriors now in Iraq and Afghanistan. The level of sophistication may have improved, but an IED is still a booby trap.

"sabot" literally means wooden shoe, and it is that shape of the propellant charge around the penetrator rod that gives it its name. Now go to your room and memorize all the facts! :D

Ahhhhhhhh, so!

A "shape charge" then, is a charge whose POWER has been "shaped", versus the shape of its shape!

Sorta like the difference between Sophia Loren and Bella Abzug?

Next question:

Would then, Little Boy and Fat Man be rightly regarded as having been shape charges?

[PHO127]

Scout, I got into a discussion with blue a year or so ago on m16s and ballistics, The more you try and answer the more he will come back with inane questions that only show that he has no grasp of the discussion.

Blue read above, now go to the library and get books on physics and explosives and nuclear weapons. and read them.

A shaped charge is an explosive charge that has been formed in a certain way in order to concentrate the power of the explosion in a certain direction. One of the methods of causing a nuclear reaction is to cause the radio active material to exceed critical mass. One method is to surround the material with a SHAPED CHARGE of conventional high explosives and detonate the high explosive compressing the radio active material to a point that it exceeds critical mass thus causing a nuclear chain reaction. BOOM. So in a point yes they were shaped charges.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by PHO127 Scout, I got into a discussion with blue a year or so ago on m16s and ballistics, The more you try and answer the more he will come back with inane questions that only show that he has no grasp of the discussion.

Blue read above, now go to the library and get books on physics and explosives and nuclear weapons. and read them.

A shaped charge is an explosive charge that has been formed in a certain way in order to concentrate the power of the explosion in a certain direction. One of the methods of causing a nuclear reaction is to cause the radio active material to exceed critical mass. One method is to surround the material with a SHAPED CHARGE of conventional high explosives and detonate the high explosive compressing the radio active material to a point that it exceeds critical mass thus causing a nuclear chain reaction. BOOM. So in a point yes they were shaped charges.

I believe that I acknowledged that statement.

Is there something wrong with asking another question?

I guess the reasons I don't "go to the library" to read up about these type matters are:

a. Because there are so many experts right here... one has only to ask! Usually, there is a good probability that an answer will eventually emerge.

b. I spend almost all my time in a library as it is, earning a living. I come here to relax and get away from my job.

c. A great value of sites such as this is benefitting from the experience of others, if we will allow ourselves to do so and not get it in our minds that we know everything there is to know about certain topics with which we have little or no history.

d. I was never very good in math or science.

I'm sorry you felt my questions about M16s and ballistics were "inane." I learned something from that and this discussion though, and maybe somebody else did too.

I did not go through any combat training of any sort approaching what many of you here did, and the closest thing I saw to a weapon or a bullet in BMT or anywhere else was an M1 carbine, with two clips, on one day at the range. Oh, I forgot... the APs carried 45 cal. sidearms, so I saw those every time I passed through the main gate. In his infinite wisdom, Uncle Samuel assigned me to cargo aircraft, whose job it is to do our best to haul you and your stuff to where both are needed and back. The Air Force did pretty well in relief at Khe Sanh, for an example.

Though Scout teases me a good deal over the years, he has never failed to reply or try to add something when I had a question about his area of expertise... and to accept my word when he has one about mine.

Somehow the retired DSC combat vet from Widow's Village and the lowly airman slick mechanic managed to find common ground, and enjoy one another's company. What he, Bill, Chas, Matzos and Doc explained here was extremely helpful, and I thank them for their patience.

If there were another reliable forum on PF, or anywhere else, where a total novice could ask important questions about weaponry and not get their head chewed off by experts, then I'd rather go there. But, this is what we have, and I'd trust Murph with my life.

[PHO127]

Questions didn't I? And yes there were some very good answers. Just that comparing a shaped charge to little boy shows you have not grasped the concept of a shaped charge. My suggestion would be to take the information gleaned from the site and then go study the subject in a library or on the internet. I did not or have not suggested you stop asking questions.

When I started to reload my own ammunition I bought several books and studied the subject for 2 years before I even bought the first peice of equipment. Asking a question of people when you have absolutly no understanding of the subject. leads to you not understanding the answer and continually asking successive questions without grasping the answer. NOW

1. Explain to me the concept of how a RPG shaped charge works.

2. How does a claymore mine shaped charge work?

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks for all the replies...

Kinda funnny though, it ain't as if I'm contemplating building any IEDs, Pho :D

Questions come to mind, so, I ask those who claim to or might know the short answers...

I'm more interested in these things in terms of current events, not in terms of technically learning how to kill and blow up stuff. For example, Matzos gave a complete explanation of TYPES of IED which was total news to me.

The word "IED" has been in various reports about this war 800 zillion times, but I actually did not have any idea what they are... except that they're deadly and they explode. I gather that unlike myself, most people just HAVE the knowledge of what all these words mean?

I could not identify a claymore from a hat box, yet. So, I have the choice of looking it up myself, or going directly to the source and saving about a week's time and/or suffering misinformation.

This ain't Basic Training, nor a classroom, as far as I'm concerned... and I was always sorta famous for insubordination in both places anyway.

[PHO127]

I guess that was why I was (still am) a hardcore no BS special forces officer and you were a AF mechanic. Cease Fire declared.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by PHO127 I guess that was why I was (still am) a hardcore no BS special forces officer and you were a AF mechanic. Cease Fire declared.

Yup...

Thanks.

In my days they didn't exactly ask anyone, "So, what role would YOU most enjoy having in the USAF, eh?", and at the time, if they'd have offered me full college help, I'm not real sure I'd have been enticed by that.

They drew a number for us, and mine was 43111A (I got to 51A, but had to earn the 3 and then the 5).

[82Rigger]

Blue,

Maybe this will help a little on your SHAPED CHARGE question.

Below is an illustration of a U.S. M31 rifle grenade. This grenade was in use in the 50's and 60's. Maybe some of our combat vets in here used it. It was fired from an M1 or M14 rifle using a special grenade-launching cartridge. It was designed for use against armor and other hard targets. Its blast would penetrate 10 inches of armor or 20 inches of concrete.

On the left is an external view. On the right is the grenade in cross-section.

I colored the explosive charge yellow so you can see better its inverted cone shape. The area in front of the explosive is empty...hollow. At the very tip of the grenade is the piezo electric detonator.

When the grenade impacts the inverted cone shape causes a jet of extremely hot and extremely fast gases to be directed toward the tip. These gases melt the armor and penetrate (hopefully) to the inside of the target.

If the grenade were simply filled with explosive, the energy would expand in ALL directions with only a small portion of the energy directed forward into the target.

[BLUEHAWK]

Thanks Rigger...

I see that there is a short wire leading from the crystal down into the charge, which I assume is what ignites the explosion.

a. What is the role of the booster, as pictured?

b. Do you know about how much armor that grenade could penetrate? I read a somewhat lengthy explanation of contemporary Tank armoring which dealt with not only thickness of the metals, but a kind that actually deflects or spreads the blast... it sort of looks like scales on a fish.

[PHO127]

Leads back to the igniter then booster, the booster charge detonates then ignites the Comp B shaped charge. Comp B is a very stable HE and uses a supplementary or booster charge to ignite it. Comp B is what is used in artillery shells. Here is a picture of an IED truck bomb with 250 artillery shells

[Andy]

Gerry Bull was sort of a Dr. Strangelove. When he started working for Iraq his days were numbered. Don?t think there is much doubt he was murdered by Mossad. 5 bullets, 2 in the head and all at point blank range.

Stay Healthy,
Andy

[Chas H]

Pho, your attachment shows 3 (at least) 155mm rounds in the back of the truck. These are rounds similar, if not identical, to what the US and NATO use. They weigh about 98 lbs each.

[BLUEHAWK]

Re: the 155 rounds in that truck...

I am assuming that they are composed of UNstable HE, and that to detonate them in the shell there has to be something like a blasting cap kind of thing... which can be daisy-chained together, whereon the explosion throws all kinds of shrapnel all over the place and makes a crater the equivalent of three 155mm rounds?

[PHO127]

1. The title of the picture taken from the web site was 250 px artillery. If you want to think they are 98lbs OK with me, I prefer to believe my son that they are 250s.

2. Look closely at the picture see the yellow stripe on the 3 highly vivible shells. Now look closely and you will see several more yellow stripes in the shadow part of the truck. The entire bed is layered one deep with shellsa and gas/diesel cans on top.

3. Blue, Comp B or whatever these shells have is NOT an unstable explosive it is very stable so it will not go off when it is fired.

[Chas H]

PHO, other than basic training, I did my entire tour in a 8"/175mm battery. I do know what I'm talking about.
Attached is a photo of soke strong lads humping a few 8" rounds that weigh 200 lbs. A 155mm round is almost 50mm (about 2") smaller in diameter and a bit shorter.

[DMZ-LT]

Thank you Chas H you guys saved my ass a couple of times , Pho too. I don't care how mich they weighed . I appreciate it . Which one are you ?

[Chas H]

You're quite welcome LT. The pleasure was ours.
The guys mugging in the photo are from the Battalion Ammo section. I was in C battery FDC. The heaviest thing I picked up was a C-rat can of beef stew.

[DMZ-LT]

Once made an artillery raid with a battery of SP 155 , I think. They fired all day and at dusk started to bring out banjos and build a fire. I told them to shut up , dig a hole , put out the fire , and half of them to stay up. We didn't get hit , thank goodness. Thank you again, did I tell you the time I marched 105's within 25 yards of us ? Artillery kills lots of people , thank goodness.

[Chas H]

I haven't your tale of danger close. Please enlighten at least me.
We frequently went on raids, if fact that's about all we did.
I actually preferred the action and excitement to clunking around in some organized, boring LZ-like LZ English. Although I was there for Tet, not LZ Pony where I had just moved from. And I am exceedingly grateful to my Creator for that move.

-------------------------------------------

Who won the War? Artillery won the War.
Gen Patton

[DMZ-LT]

OK , Your enlightened

[Chas H]

Thanks, I needed that, save wear and tear on the shoes and sandals too.

[DMZ-LT]

Again , thank you for your service . And again thank you for the rounds.

[PHO127]

Herndon, Sidney G Jr, O5425645 Captain, Field Artillery. FYI here is standard m107 projectile data for 155 howitzers since you know so much note weight.

The M107 155mm projectile is the US Army's standard high-explosive (HE) projectile for howitzers. It is a bursting round with fragmentation and blast effects.

Description
The body consists of a hollow steel shell containing high explosive (TNT or various RDX mixes) painted olive drab. A fuze adapter is screwed into the body and brazed in place. An eyebolt lifting plug is screwed into the fuze well to assist in loading, it is removed and replaced with a fuze for firing. The complete projectile weighs 43.2 lb (19.6 kg), is 800 mm long and contains 15.8% explosive by weight. It is a separate-loading projectile - propellant bags are loaded separately.

[Chas H]

It's wrong anyway. You were claiming 250 lbs for a 155mm shell now you come up with something equally rediculous.



http://www.bravecannons.org/the_gun/munitions.html

This from a real Artillery site.

[PHO127]

That info came from an old version of FM 6-40 that was published when the first conversions were made to Kg, they took all of the weights in KGs and thought they were lbs then made KGs on parenthese. It is a well known error, Wasn't fair I appologise. I have found the South African site and am downloading the projectile info now. Don't be mad but you are trying to compare US and South African Artillery. I commanded a 155 pig battery in VN at Khe Sahn and 155 shells are 97 or 98 lbs for the M107 HE depending on the reference. I wouldn't agree with you just on the general appearence of these shells from a photograph. My son is an E7 EOD agent and I figure pretty well knows what he is talking about. If he says the are South African 155 shells that weigh around 250 apiece I would tend to accept it as true. Also the truck bomb pic came from the internet by typing in car bombs, the pic title of 250px came from there not my son. Have to leave for the mountains now and a meeting of the Ellijay american legion, will be back on monday and check the download. SHOT Over.

[Chas H]

I realized going out the door this morning that the metric correction factor had been applied twice to the weight in lbs. Things like this happen, and it's certainly not your fault; no apology needed.
I have searched my resources and the web thoroughly and have been unable to come up with any thing but a standard weight for the SA 155 cannon.
Have a great weekend and we'll see you later.

[BLUEHAWK]

Airman Blue, back with another question :D

I enjoyed just reading what you all were talking about, by the way...

The concept of marching artillery in must have been quite something in the pre-GPS days... and even now.

The question is:

- Vis a vis the size/weight of those shells being discussed, is there a certain minimum amount or power of detonator required to set them off? I don't need specifics, this is just a general query solely to get some idea of the stability of the explosives while inside each shell, re: IED. I mean, it would seem to me that an M80 firecracker would not do the trick, but might a dynamite blasting cap?

Going back to my first post on this thread, I am interested in this because it was being said that Iran and Syria had their hands on some sort of special ability/gear for the making of those larger IED, and so I am wondering from what source(s) they might be getting the necessaries.

Of course, I am also wondering why they have not been using them, if not, prior to now, or if the news report was just plain nonsense BS.

[catman]

It took almost 15 seconds to bring this up in a google search on my slow dial-up computer. This is a M107 round.

[Chas H]

Artillery projectiles have a fuze well in the nose, lined with thin metal. Any initiator with a blast sufficient to penetrate the fuze well will most likely set it off. I would consider an M-80 to be capable of detonating an arty round.
The normal, military fuze has 2 safety features that make it unsuitable for IED use, but a blasting cap or even a rifle round would work just fine.

[Doc.2/47]

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."

Blue-

I've got the idea that you're giving the Media waaay too much credit for knowing what the hell they're talkin about. If the subject is firearms/ammunition/explosives, the best policy is to never EVER believe anything the Media has to say without checking against actual facts. Remember when the Media had just about everybody(including some folks who SHOULD have known better) convinced that Pres. Ragan had been shot with an explosive .22 round?

[BLUEHAWK]

Quite so, about the media...

Which is another reason I ask questions...

Anyhoo, I still haven't figured out whether there is or is not anything unusual coming in from Iran or Syria. But, probably not any more or less so than always...

[Chas H]

Blue, I think just about everyone suspects that munitions are being slipped into Iraq. I would be very surprised if the list stopped with Iran and Syria.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by Chas H Blue, I think just about everyone suspects that munitions are being slipped into Iraq. I would be very surprised if the list stopped with Iran and Syria.

This probably isn't the right forum to discuss this thread further then, along this line anyway... I was just trying to see if any of you might know any good weaponry reason for every single TV news report we saw for 3-4 days there after Haditha, make such a point of stipulating that these munitions were somehow traceable to two specific nations.

No proof was offered, of course. It was just stated as if Centcom had sworn to it or something.

Thanks, everyone, for some background on this.