Confronting my own racism
 

I think one of the most eyeopening things I have learned about myself since the Vietnam War was the extent not only of the culture of racism we made there but how I bought into it . I don't think of myself as a racist, supported every part of the civil rights movement since I became politically aware in the early 60s (born and raised in Berkeley) But i was sure racist towards the Vietnamese and everyone else I saw was also. It was the culture, the basic understandings.
Our assumptions about them were spectacularly stupid and racist--that they didn't appreciate life, that they were stupid peasants with no undestanding of outside events and facts.. Remember the "VC Granny throws a bomb laden baby" story? Oh, yeah, like they did that regularly. And they had a better command of facts and the true political situation than we Americans ever had.
We Americans were convinced that we were better thaan the gooks were and why not? Racism and White Supremacy was the law of our land untill well into the 60s and its traces linger with us yet. HOw could any war we got into not be racist? Especially when the protagonists are of different races. Consider how differently WWII was fought in the Pacific and European theaters. Every Vietnam Veteran reading this of every color grew up in a time when our country completely ignored the rights of many of its own citizens--are you racist or stupid enough to think the Vietnamese didn't know all about that??
Ho Chi Minh, who had traveled widely in the world (including shoveling snow in front of the Cotton Club in NY) said that America would never aid a former colony to liberate themselves if the colonizers were white and the colonized were not and he was dead accurate there--we never did, despite our much vaunted love for worldwide democracy.

OK, we were products of our times, as is the rest of the world.

But what I confronted when I went there again that was most shocking to me was my own racism and assumptions. I grew up in the SF East Bay, no stranger to Asians, I went to school with them, have Asian Americann friends and never think of them like I thought of the Vietnamese. One of the shockers was I knew the Vietnamese words for Fuck and marijuana but I never knew how to say please or thank you. Thats what you see, if youre an anyways sentient person.
I think why it was so easy to see ourselves as better was because they were so backwards---black PJs, using water buffalo to till their crops, very few personal autos, living in huts, most of them. Thats the big eyeopener when you go back--how modern the place is. Like we were expecting it to stay as it was inour memories--because those were our memories..
But war makes a place look ugly (ask me how I know this!) and the people bitter and unfriendly. Now these people look like you'd see at the mall. That would make it a lot harder for me to call in artillery on a "hostile VC village" it really would. NApalming a ville full of people just like you'd see at the mall has to be lot harder for you than a bunch of backward gooks with no respect for life or you are one sick puppy.
We fought a war right over the top of these people without ever saying please or thank you, with no respect for their feelings at all. We told them what we were doing was the best thing for them and they could fuck themselves for their opinon. We were racist as hell. Why not? we were racist as hell in our own country also, to pretend we weren't in theirs is just so much sphistry.
So we bombed them napalmed them, shot them with complete abandon if we thought it met our needs, chemically defoliated as much as 15% of their whole country. Their willingness to drop this, and move on beyond that is remarkable to me but of course, most of the country was born since the American War.
Whats also remarkable is the continuing hatred and disrespect of the Vietnamese I see among many Vietnam vets. get real--it wasn't them that came to our country and Roman Plowed it, we did it to them. Seems sporting to me theyre willing to bury it--we should too.

Another thing my trip proved to me was how right I was to protest the war as a inhumane loss of life and values when I got out of the Army. That made it easier for me to look the Vietnamese in the eye when I was there.It just had to end, there was nothing in it at all for the American People or the Vietnamese people either. I did the right thing once I saw the wrong being done. The right thing to do WAS end that war ASAP and Bush's recent acceptance of Vietnam into the fold is only more proof of it.
History proved me right and so does GWB.

We do things when young we wouldn't do later, those who survive to be old are the ones who have learned the lessons.
Now I congratulate the Vietnamese people for their long stuggle for independence. They deserve it.
I would be their friend---not because its our national policy now but for my own sake.
Peace.
Stay good
James

the pic is me in Pleiku, 2003--beat GWB by three years plus--notice the Psycovet hat

James
you wrote "We do things when young we wouldn't do later, those who survive to be old are the ones who have learned the lessons."
The only thing I would have done differently (now that Im old) I would have used more auto fire just in case some were hiding and I couldn't see them. The Vietnamese people were some worthless peaces of elephant dung and still are as far as Im concerned. The ONLY time I ever heard of any ARVN unit doing any fighting was in HUE in Jan Feb 68, They done real good then and bore the brunt of the fighting in Hue, (not to say that the Marines didn't do there share). Note-- all the pictures of the Marines walking threw the city of Hue with blown up buildings and such is because the ARVN had already been there.
Im happy for guys that can go back to Vietnam and forgive and forget, I just ain't one of them. It doesn't matter weather the war was a just war or anything else, It's where our country sent us and we went. Protesting our government and the troops in time of war is wrong. If it was up to me back then I would have warned Kent state students and then opened up with a 50. and at all the rest of the "demonstrations" also. F-um, the a@#$#% protesting what I do for my country.

Ron

Ron,

Also look at ARVN fighting at An Loc in 1972 and Xuan Loc in 1975. There are lots of there places they stood up well against the enemy. At An Loc they had very limited allied (read American) support. They had some air and advisor support. At Xuan Loc they fought on their own.

Covan
We left in 72, so they kinda had to fight for themselves. And I had long put VN on the far back burner and didn't care anymore about the ARVN. I kinda feel like that guy in Full Metal Jacket said, "I got a good ARVN rifle for sale, only be dropped once" .

They stood because they had to, They also got there ass handed to them and there country over ran in 75.

In August 1972 the 3rd battalion 21st infantry withdrew. They were the last US ground Combat Battalion in VN.

In 1972 we had 24,000 troops still in VN mostly advisors and pilots and air crews, The South VN Army was at 1,048,000 troop strength. Over 1,000,000 troops and they got there ass kicked? what does that tell you about there capability.

Ron

Ron,

"kinda had to fight for themselves"? Are you kidding? We left them high and dry after promises and promises we would intervene if they would agree to the ceasefire. Nixon and Kissinger sold them out for a "peace with honor."

I would say it has something to do with the enemy force they were up against and the North's blatant violations of the cease-fire. Remember LANDGRAB 73?

It also has something to do with the amount of support the NVA was getting from the Soviet Union and Chinese versus the lack of support the RVNAF were receiving from the US.

a view from the other side....

Vietnam Human Rights

Covan
Thats the good thing about living in the US, you can believe whatever you wish.
kinda had to fight for themselves"? Are you kidding? Ah, no not kidding. We left them because they were worthless and not worth our guys dieing for. The Paris peace talks went on for a long time, we had to make a deal cause the jerks back in the United States were protesting more and more and the North could see this and were throwing it at Kissinger, I guess we could have surrendered to North Vietnam, maybe you would have liked that better than lieing to South Vietnam?

Remember LANDGRAB 73? No I don't remember Landgrab 73 nor do I give a shit.
You wrote--
It also has something to do with the amount of support the NVA was getting from the Soviet Union and Chinese versus the lack of support the RVNAF were receiving from the US .

Maybe your kidding?
The South Vietnam Army was at 1,000,000 personnel, We left everything we had in Vietnam, Tanks, helicopters,Boats, planes, guns, ammo,etc, etc, I would say the amount of support we gave the South was 100 times that the support the North got. It was a matter of will, The North had it and the South didn't. All the support in the world ain't gona do nothin if your not going to fight.
The Souths Army was full of corrupt people and half were VC that would rather be growing poppies.
That whole country ain't worth one US soldiers life. .


Ron

Ron,

Your mind is made up and all of the statistics, anecdotes, history, and professional papers will not change your pathetic outlook.

For one year I worked with the ARVN everyday. Some of my experiences were negative, most were positive, but along the way I came to see these men, women and children as human beings caught up in a terrible situation. For the most part all these folks wanted was the same as you and me . . . life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, in whatever terms those words mean to each of us.

Papasan and mamasan knew they would be ruled by a government and have to pay taxes to someone and it really did not matter who. They only wanted to be left alone.

Yes, we left them tanks, helicopters, boats, planes, guns ammo, etc. and no real means to fix the mechanical stuff and provide more ammo for their dwindling supplies. You say you were an RTO. Just think of how much you relied on batteries for your radios. RVNAF had to reduce battery consumption by 25%. They tried to do this by combining nets, reducing the number of radios in operation, etc. and told the troops to operate their radios no more than 20 days per month. I'm sure those are the conditions you would have wanted, too. Just don't get into a world of s--t on of the days you aren't supposed to use the radio.

Infantrymen went from carrying 6 grenades to 2; outposts were restricted to 2 or 3 mortar rounds a day; artillery fire was limited to clearly identified targets, forget about H&I.

It is not worth arguing with you. Nice thing about living in the US, you can believe whatever you wish.

Covan
You see the ARVN from your eyes and I see them from mine, You choose to call my opinions and feelings pathetic, that is your choice. However, I would never be caught under the ARVNs desk with his pants down like you apparently were.

You said "Infantrymen went from carrying 6 grenades to 2; outposts were restricted to 2 or 3 mortar rounds a day; artillery fire was limited to clearly identified targets, forget about H&I. "
Well hears an idea for ya, BUY MORE!


It is not worth arguing with you, so why then do you continue with your babble. ARVN were worthless, corrupt and would just as soon run than fight, F--K the short slant eyed assholes.

A discussion is ok on any subject but when you resort to calling my opinions "pathetic" then you cross over the line and I also call what you say what ever I wish.

You can't have a discussion without a verbal assault, just don't discuss with me.

Dave

Is there a way to block someone from sending you a PM?

Ron