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Facts about vietnam, especially for those who were "not" there.

Lots of good information here -- interesting, especially for those folks unlike ourselves who were there.
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> *We do not live in Vietnam, Vietnam lives in us.*
>
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>
> *Vietnam** Facts vs. Fiction.*
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>
> I found this article very interesting. The most notable fact is that 2.7
> million Americans actually served in the Vietnam Theater of war.
>
> In the last census nearly 14 million Americans claimed they served in
> Vietnam.
>
> *Four out of five are lying. I wonder why. *
>
> *
> ** Vietnam Facts vs. Fiction *
>
>
> For over 30 years I, like many Vietnam veterans, seldom spoke of Vietnam,
> except with other veterans, when talking to other soldiers, and in public speeches.

> These past five years I have joined the hundreds of thousands who believe it is high time the truth be told about the Vietnam War and the people who
> served there. It's time the American people learn that the United States
> military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people
> who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.
>

> Below are some assembled facts most readers will find interesting. It isn't
> a long read, but it will....I guarantee....teach you some things you did not
> know about the Vietnam War and those who served, fought, or died there.
> Please share it with those with whom you communicate.

> Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.)
> Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source
>

> Vietnam War Facts:
> Facts, Statistics, Fake Warrior Numbers, and Myths Dispelled
>

> 9,087,000 (Million) military personnel served on active duty during the
> official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
> 2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam
> Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.
> 240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War
>

> *1. * The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was
> with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named
> for him.
>
> *2. * 58,148 were killed in Vietnam
>
> *3. * 75,000 were severely disabled.
>
> *4. * 23,214 were 100% disabled.
>
> *5. * 5,283 lost limbs.
>
> *6. * 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.
>
> *7. * Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21.
>
> *8. * 11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old.
>
> *9. * Of those killed, 17,539 were married.
>
> *10. * Average age of men killed: 23.1 years.
>
> *11*. Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
>
> *12. *The oldest man killed was 62 years old.
>
> *13. *As of January 15, 2004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted
> for from the Vietnam War.
>
> *14. *97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged.
>
> *15. * 91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served.
>
> *16. *74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome.
>
> *17. *Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet
> age groups.
>
> *18. *Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age
> group by more than 18 percent.
>
> *19. *87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.
>
> *20. *There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and
> non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration
> Study)
>
> *21. *Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of
> one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
>
> *22. *85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian
> life.
>
> *23. *Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:
>
> * a. * 1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as
> of August, 1995 (census figures).
> b. During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely
> claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
>
> *24. * As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving
> U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to
> believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day.
>
> *24. *During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to
> have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.>
> *25. *The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially
> provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918
> U.S. Military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and
> confirmations to this erroneous index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S.
> Military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally
> listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and
> accessible 24/7/365).
>
> 26. Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of
> outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities
> were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The
> United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while
> North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy.
>
> *27. *Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences
> while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the
> National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted
> another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level
> and on anyone who improved the lives o f the peasants such as medical
> personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - >
>
> *Common Myths Dispelled:>
> *#1. Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
> Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the
> men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those
> killed in Vietnam were volunteers.
>
>
> #2. Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans
> range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran
> population.
> Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC
> Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5
> years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among
> Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service
> period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than
> non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the
> rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.
>
>
> #3.Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were
> killed in the Vietnam War.
> Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black,
> and 1.2% was other races. Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley
> Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they
> analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam
> "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities
> amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia, a figure
> proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. Population at the time and
> slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the
> war."
>
>
> #4 Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and
> uneducated.
> Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly
> elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or
> infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our
> nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or
> better. Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of
> November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The
> Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although
> 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date
> and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some
> of those who were listed as missing in action) Deaths Average Age Total:
> 58,148, 23.11 years Enlisted: 50,274, 22.37 years Officers: 6,598, 28.43
> years Warrants: 1,276, 24.73 years E1 525, 20.34 years 11B MOS: 18,465,
> 22.55 years
>
> *#5 Myth:* The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting
> in Vietnam was 19.
> Fact: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam,
> the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19
> years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an
> average age of less than 20. The average man who fought in World War II was
> 26 years of age.
>
> *#6 Myth:* The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
> Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast
> Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and
> Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to
> Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's
> commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept
> all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of
> great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in
> these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion
> from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for
> Communism.
>
> #7 Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as
> intense as in World War II.
> Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw
> about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam
> saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the
> helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a
> casualty.. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who
> served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars,
> amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II
> ...75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew
> nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half
> were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization
> was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans
> wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided
> unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three
> times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos
> (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva
> Accords or 1962 would secure the border).
>
> *#8 Myth:* Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked
> from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972.....shown a million
> times on American television....was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
>
> Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that
> burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village
> were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in
> support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who
> dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even
> the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese. The
> incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle
> between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang
> Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force
> the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an
> American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are
> incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We
> (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to
> Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of
> TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim
> Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not
> her brothers.
>
> #9 Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
> Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American
> military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military
> standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General
> Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of
> California, Berkley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.
> FACT: THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH
> VIETNAMESE DID. Read on........
> *The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American
> military left Vietnam*. The last American troops departed in their entirety
> 29 March 1973.
> FACT: How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to
> an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January
> 1973.
>
> * It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces,
> limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to
> peaceful reunification.
>
> *The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted
> almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military
> running for their lives.
>
> *There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily
> Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there
> were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam.
>
>
> *As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and
> misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming
> success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. Forces.
> Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the
> Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those
> forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is
> considered by some as ranking with Wellington, Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a
> great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of
> the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000
> NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong
> elements in South Vietnam. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the
> South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and
> that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example
> in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However,
> inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.
>
>
> Please give all credit and research to:
> Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.)
> Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source

---END---

Gimp

This about time, great read

Thanks, Gimp. Disspells alot of nonfactual rumors and inuendo.

Good post, Gimp. Now I don't want to have gone to Vietnam but I did so does that make me be a wannabe wannabe? Kim Phuc ended up being a hero of Vietnam and was sent to medical school but in spite of all that adulation she fled to Canada. Now she is a Baptist.

The concept of the Kim Phuc Foundation was inspired by Kim Phuc - an innocent victim of the Vietnam War at the age of nine. On June 8, 1972, Kim's village of Trang Bang came under attack by South Vietnamese planes, which mistakenly dropped napalm on a Buddhist pagoda in an area where the North Vietnamese were infiltrating. While running for safety with other children, Kim was severely burned by the napalm.
The famous photograph of Kim Phuc taken by the Pulitzer Prize winning AP photographer, Huyng Cong Nick Ut, is evidence of the cruelty of war toward child victims, and became a symbol of civilian suffering in the Vietnam War. Kim suffered many years of painful burn therapy, but she always longed to reach out and help other children who were victimized by war.

Her incredible strength and spirit are evident when she speaks about forgiveness and helping children. The Kim Phuc Foundation may have been inspired by her pain, but its focus is on world peace and healing.

She is a mother of two.

Gimp
A bunch of BS about Vietnam that was BS.
Your reporting was just fine, The "facts" were , shall we say, somewhat suspect.
There were a bunch of very different wars in Vietnam, Eye corps was very different from IVCorps, 66 was very different from 72. Marines was very different from Cav and so on.
I'm cooking shrimp on the grill and that is different from going to Mcdonalds.

Ron

Which facts are suspect?

Gimpy
So my question is does this mean that my dad and 14999 others do not count as they were sent over in 1962 by the worlds worst president in history John F. Kennedy (whoops political opinion:)) I bet between 58 to 64 we can add many more of those that went and those that were KIA or injured.

Also to add to the age stats my dad was 37 as were most in their mid 30's in his squadron when the went to Vietnam as well as being volunteers.

Believe it or not we were 6 mos from being sent to Vietnam as a family!

Dave

82
Think about what is being written here. Not to say it's false but I usually don't take any writing as fact, (Columbus discovered America) . For instance.

Just a couple examples.

#4 Myth, Average age of Vietnam vet. 23? There were two guys in my unit that were older than 20, the rest were 18 and 19. You made E2 after you got out of AIT, I didn't know any E1s in VN. And what about all the rest of the MOS's besides 11B. And Marines.

#7 Myth. ". The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year"
That’s just BS. Unless you have a very, very loose definition of Combat. I heard a mortar go off so therefore I was in combat?

No, These things are interesting and may even be true, But at least you can say that some are suspect?

Ron

Kim Phuc Testimonial

On June 8, 1972, I ran out from Cao Dai temple in my village, Trang Bang, South Vietnam; I saw an airplane getting lower and then four bombs falling down. I saw fire everywhere around me. Then I saw the fire over my body, especially on my left arm. My clothes had been burned off by fire.

I was 9 years old but I still remember my thoughts at that moment: I would be ugly and people would treat me in a different way. My picture was taken in that moment on Road No. 1 from Saigon to Phnom Penh. After a soldier gave me some drink and poured water over my body, I lost my consciousness.

Several days after, I realized that I was in the hospital, where I spent 14 months and had 17 operations.

It was a very difficult time for me when I went home from the hospital. Our house was destroyed; we lost everything and we just survived day by day.

Although I suffered from pain, itching and headaches all the time, the long hospital stay made me dream to become a doctor. But my studies were cut short by the local government. They wanted me as a symbol of the state. I could not go to school anymore.

The anger inside me was like a hatred as high as a mountain. I hated my life. I hated all people who were normal because I was not normal. I really wanted to die many times.

I spent my daytime in the library to read a lot of religious books to find a purpose for my life. One of the books that I read was the Holy Bible.

In Christmas 1982, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. It was an amazing turning point in my life. God helped me to learn to forgive — the most difficult of all lessons. It didn't happen in a day and it wasn't easy. But I finally got it.

Forgiveness made me free from hatred. I still have many scars on my body and severe pain most days but my heart is cleansed.

Napalm is very powerful but faith, forgiveness and love are much more powerful. We would not have war at all if everyone could learn how to live with true love, hope and forgiveness.

If that little girl in the picture can do it, ask yourself: Can you?

Kim Phuc the Video

Kim Phuc at Vietnam Memorial

Dear Friends:

I am very happy to be with you today. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk and meet with you on this Veterans' Day.

As you know I am the little girl who was running to escape from the napalm fire. I do not want to talk about the war because I cannot change history.

I only want you to remember the tragedy of war in order to do things to stop fighting and killing around the world.

I have suffered a lot from both physical and emotional pain. Sometimes I thought I could not live, but God saved me and gave me faith and hope.

Even if I could talk face to face with the pilot who dropped the bombs, I would tell him we cannot change history but we should try to do good things for the present and for the future to promote peace.

I did not think that I could marry nor have any children because of my burns, but now I have a wonderful husband and lovely son and a happy family.

Dear friends, I just dream one day people all over the world can live in real peace--no fighting, and no hostility. We should work together to build peace and happiness for all people in all nations.

Thank you so much for letting me be a part of this important day.

Official Report on Trang Bang

0715 21xx requests 5 sets TACAIR to knock out 2x105mm sites.

0850 HAU NGHAI reference AFVN Newscast of civilians killed by NAPALM
yesterday at approx 1240 1245 yest , a VNAF FAC W/VNAF TACAIR & VNAF C&C;
(25xx commander) delivered a Napalm strike via XT 498196. Strike was
apparently short, resulting in 10 ARVN WIA , 2 CIV KHA & UNK # CIV WHA
0855 HAU NGHIA TRANG BANG RPTS NO VC in town.
0730 PHOUC TUY update. XUYEN MOC/DUC THANH RCVD ABF all else quiet.
0910 21xx 6 ABN quiet
15 RGT will move N (may be)
33 RGT in contact since 0700 to their West vie XT 760830
TAN KHAI under Hvy ABF W/105 60mm & 82m
32nd will move N along both sides of Hwy about 3km.
0925 5xx AN LOC
1) Resupply 0617 4. in/all good
0635 12 in/1 Malfunction
0656 16 in/all good
0708 16 in/2 Malfunctions
2) Who gave last nites LORAN TGT whose TGT was it, not on 5xx
request for last nite.
3) There has been an increase in Hvy calibre incoming, 105&155MM
4) 1/48 captured CHIEU HOI center in Block 3. So far, 7 VC KIA,

2xB40 lxB41, lxU/1 AA MG, 25xB40 MIMS., 4xAK47., lx240TM RKT CIA. 'Ell
evaded N.
1115 25xx update on incident )See 085011)
2 CIV were killed by hard bombs
5 CIV were wounded.
2 ARVN wounded by NAPALM
42 VC KRA.
25xx Commander directed airstrikes

in TRANG BANG VC built bunkers in town & took beds & personal
effects from villiagers, town is cleared of VC now, civilians are
moving back in.
Sighting of 800 VC vie XT 205630 was by civilian woodworkers who
reported to RF at SUOI DA. Request pink team UR area.

1 115 (Cont) is taking Hvy B40 fire GROUP

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 1CAVCCO15MED

__________________
[B

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams [/b]

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No truer words were ever spoken Doc!

Thanks for your insight. And, thanks for what you said in your post on the thread about the tornadoes and storms in Atlanta that got deleted! It's good to have friends like you.

Gimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by 39mto39g (Post 428889)

i have to agree with ron---some of this is just wrong.
In my infantry unit the average age was 21----but when you think that this included a 37 year old platoon sgt and some older squad leaders to raise the average, the TYPICAL grunt in that platoon was 19.
Over 1200 pilots were killed during the Vietnam War---some of these were WWII vets---that had to raise the average some.

And I'd certsinly have to dispute this---a lot: "....Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of
>outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy...."

it is generally agreed that the vast majority of civilians killed were by the US bombing of Both North and South. According to the Vietnamese government, about 2.25 million vietnamese were killed in the Vietnam War. About one million North Vietnamese soldeiers were killed, about 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers were killed. And ABout a million civiliians were killed. Of these, the vast majority were killed by US bombing. The Communists never killed on this level and you won't find Any evidence to prove they did.

most of these facts have been around a long time and no one realy disputes them. And what do they mean now, anyway?

Good to see you back, Gimp
Stay good
james

Gimp and James don't give up on this group.We are all still brothers and need your thoughts.Who ever shed his blood with me , this day ,shall forever be my brother. We been talking for about 9 years now.

Gimpy,

Thanks for the post. I turned 21 in June of 71 six and a half months in country. Of the guys on the recon teams I served with in the 1st Cav most were my age or older and a few were on a 2nd or 3rd tour. In the 101st again most of us were 20-21 but almost all were first tour. I know that I didn't spend 3/4 of my tour in combat and for those that spent much more time than I ever did fighting, Thank You for taking the heat so that I didn't have to. Although this qoute from your post is out of context "As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted" I think the media does a pretty screwed up job of reporting facts regardless of the war or the situation. Unfortunately we can't believe everything we read and have to waste a lot of time ferreting out the facts. Thanks for yours.

Doc Urb

I served in Vietnam but I am not a combat vet. I went on to retire after 25 years in the Army. Over the years, where ever I'v encountered them (VFW'S, American Legions, etc) allmost all of the self-identified Vietnam vets have claimed to be combat vets. Most of us who served there never experienced actual combat. Where are they?

Various sources say the ratio of trigger pullers to support troops in Vietnam was about 1 - 7.

Larry

I've heard of the 1 to 7 ratio before, but since there were no front lines in Vietnam I wonder how many of the 7 support troops were trigger pullers. [We had a cook in our unit that received a silver star.]

I suspect it refers to combat MOS. This include all the 11 ones plus others...it doesn't mean that support troops weren't in combat. Of course they were.

I'm not a Vietnam Vet, but I know five off-hand and they are all very responsible people with good paying jobs.. Two are pipe welders who work on oil drilling platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, one is a crane operator who works out of the heavy equipment union local in New Orleans, one is a Catipillar mechanic, one owns four auto dealerships. One in Harvey, La, two in Covington, La, one in LaPlace, La.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WateringHole (Post 435468)

I'm not a Vietnam Vet, but I know five off-hand and they are all very responsible people with good paying jobs.

So do you feel that is an unusually high number?

Do you know any "good" blacks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmboy (Post 435493)

So do you feel that is an unusually high number?

Do you know any "good" blacks?

Are you trying to get into a confrontation with me ? Because you don't really have to push me to get my attention.
I don't know why you have an attitude problem with me just because I said I know five Vietnam Vets who are living very stable lives. And what is this junk "do you know any good Blacks ???????? That's so freaken stupid.
Stupid questions are always asked by stupid people.