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Dirty thirty help!
I am looking for help. My dad, who is now 73 years old, is a Vietnam War veteran and was a pilot with the original Dirty Thrity. He was in Vietnam from April 1962 to April 1963. I have seen the unit picture and my dad is top row center so I know he was there with the other guys but I am having problems getting any informaton on the unit and it's histroy. :confused:
I have been able to make contact with only a few veterans who flew with my dad and the wife of a deceased veteran. I am really hoping there are people here who can help me with my research becasue I really want to put something together for my dad before he passes. :( The Air Force has not been terribly forthcoming and I am really beginning to wonder what the deal is. :eek: Please help if you can. Thanks all. |
Son
It might help if you give the actual unit name that your dad was in. He was there early but I bet he saved many ground unit lives with his actions. We are all very proud of your dad.
Pack |
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I believe the official designation was the 43rd Air Transport Squadron (or Maybe Group). I am not sure if this was a USAF or a VNAF designation. Since the commander was Col. Nguyen Ky then there might not have been an actual USAF designation. :confused: |
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I appreciate the links, however the first and third ones you sent are about a man in the Army and his experiences in 1968. My dad's unit was there April 1962 to April 1963. The second group was there until April 1964. This is just an example of the problems I am having .... apparently the phrase "Dirtyt Thirty" was pretty popular back then. :cool: Todd |
hope this helps
There was also a group of guys in the early part of the war called Jungle Jim.
They were flying old transports and bombers. The people were there mostly on TDY basis at first. Maybe the Air Commando Association can be of some help. I will try a few things for you as I have time. Pete |
I looked on the AFHS and did not find any information on the 43rd Airlift Squadron. I also checked the AF Together We Served web site and did not find any thing.
More information might help. Pete |
Dirty Thirty Patch
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The patch the guys wore on their flight suits was round .... the top half was blue and the bottom half was red. There was a black ram's head in the center with a yellow lightning bolt behind the ram's head. There was a red ring near the edge of the circle with the words "BA MUOI LAM" on the top and the words "THE DIRTY THIRTY" on the bottom. I hope this helps .... Todd |
Reaching back
40 years, I think Ba Muoi means 30 for sure.....I get that from drinking Ba Muoi Ba, which meant 33'. So....they obviously were the Lam 30....but anymore, can't help. Someone will come up with sumpin' for you.
Pack |
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Knowing my luck Lam probably means Dirty. :eek: I just can't seem to get much headway on this project .... Todd |
Actually
Lam is Vietnamese for Gay. Just kidding. Couldn't help myself. The November Psyco Mtn extravaganza is fast approaching and have to get myself in a weird state of mind. You seemed to have picked a tough one....but I am sure somewhere, somebody is going to help you out.
Pack |
Stuff that happened in Vietnam in the early 60s is hard to get details about unless you find others that served in the same time and place.
I know a Marine that wrote a book about his experiences there & then. I've even met his (I don't remember his rank) and talked to both together. I also know 2 Marines that know everything about the Marine Corps and each swears that the other is an expert. Both insist that there were NO Marines in Vietnam before 1965. Keep looking everywhere. Somebody served with or near him. Don't worry about not finding information on the AF Together We Served web site. Darrel had to send pictures of some patches to Army Together We Served. Other information is still not loaded due to lack of information on their part. Joy |
What does your dad say about it?
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It seems to me like the best source of information about this unit, and your dad's activities in it, would be your dad. What does he say about it? Also Nguyen cao ky was never in comand of any American unit--it would have to be Vietnamese Good luck! |
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I know Col. Ky would never have been in command of an American unit. I think technically all of the pilots were "observers" or "advisors", even though they did the actual flying. Each time one of the planes went up it had one American in the cockpit and one South Vietnamese. I think this is where I am having proplems with the Air Force. All of the guys had to be under some kind of US chain of command even though they were flying with a VNAF unit. This is why I am looking for help or anyone who knows anything about the Dirty Thirty. Todd |
Ky
survived and is in the US I think. Maybe you can try and find him....a google etc. should do that....and write him. Just a thought.
Pack |
In the VNAF, Transportation Squadrons had three digit numbers starting with "4".
Maybe this will help... Squadron - Wing - Division - Location - Primary Aircraft 413th Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-119 Flying Boxcar 415th Transport Squadron 33rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-47 421st Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-123 Provider 423rd Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-123 Provider 425th Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-123 Provider 427th Transport Squadron 51st Tactical Wing 1st Air Division Da Nang C-7 Caribou 429th Transport Squadron 82nd Tactical Wing 6th Air Division Phu Cat C-7 Caribou 431st Transport Squadron 82nd Tactical Wing 6th Air Division Phu Cat C-7 Caribou 435th Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-130A 437th Transport Squadron 53rd Tactical Wing 5th Air Division Tan Son Nhut C-130A |
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Do a Google search for
"the dirty thirty"+ vietnam exactly as typed above for more stuff. |
Son-of-a-pilot
Nguyen Cao Ky supposedly lives in Hacienda Heights, California and has a daughter, Nguyen Cao Ky Duyen, of Huntington Beach, California who may be able to find him if you can get in contact with her.
Good Luck. Gimp |
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I seem to remember hearing that Nguyen Cao Ky went back to Vietnam. I heard somewhere he was getting flak for trying to reconcile with the Communists in Vietnam and that he may move back there. :eek: |
<!-- message --> <!-- / icon and title -->I originally posted this in another thread on this subject but believe it is more appropriate here.
Of note on a couple of misconceptions in this thread A: They were not "advisor's" they were probably the first "combatants" in Vietnam B: Col Ky was the commander. They did according to my dad have a ranking American, but he reported to Col Ky as they were actually assigned to the VNAF. Dave <!-- message --> Son of I too am the son of a Dirty Thirty pilot. My dad Maj Carl R. Erickson USAF retired is now 82. Let me tell you what I know and have found out primarily through my dad and some "googled" info. My dad was in the first 30, April of 62. I always thought that he was there as an adviser but from new discussions and other info it appears they were temporarily assigned by (MAAG) military assistance group to bring the VNAF 1st transportion group to full strength under the command of Nguyen Cao Ky. Yes Col. Ky was the commander. So from what I have found they were actually "on loan" from the USAF to the VNAF. Which means they were not adviser's at all the were probably the first "combatants" of the Vietnam war. I do remember visiting th AF musem in 68 when we were stationed at Chanute AFB and the had a small display of the Dirty Thirty. Here is the info I found and my dad confirms. "The Dirty Thirty South Vietnamese Air Force DC-3 being flown by USAF "Dirty Thirty" pilots - 1962 South Vietnamese Air Force DC-3 being flown by USAF "Dirty Thirty" pilots - 1962 Additional USAF personnel arrived at Tan Son Nhut in early 1962 after the VNAF transferred two dozen seasoned pilots from the 1st Transportation Group at Tan Son Nhut to provide aircrews for the newly activated 2nd Fighter Squadron then undergoing training at Bien Hoa Air Base. This sudden loss of qualified C-47 pilots brought the 1st Transportation Group's airlift capability dangerously low. In order to alleviate the problem, United States Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, on the recommendation of the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) Vietnam, ordered thirty USAF pilots temporarily assigned to the VNAF to serve as C-47 co-pilots. This influx of U.S. personnel quickly returned the 1st TG to full strength. The Americans arrived at Tan Son Nhut during March and April 1962 and immediately began flying with Vietnamese crews. Unfortunately, problems arose between the Americans and Vietnamese and by August the situation had so deteriorated that the 1st Transportation Group commander. Nguyen Cao Ky urgently appealed for closer cooperation and understanding between the two groups. The situation seemed to gradually improve and although there were still problems, the two groups developed a closer working relationship. Unlike the USAF Farm Gate personnel at Bien Hoa Air Base, the C-47 co-pilots actually became part of the VNAF operational structure - though still under U.S. control. Because of their rather unusual situation, these pilots soon adopted the very unofficial nickname, The Dirty Thirty. In a sense they were the first U.S. airmen actually committed to combat in Vietnam, rather than being assigned as advisors or support personnel. The USAF 315th Troop Carrier Group (Combat Cargo) and 8th Aerial Port Squadron were activated on 8 December 1962, replacing the provisional transport units. The 315th Group had a strength of twenty-seven officers and twenty-one airmen, all of whom were on permanent assignment to Tan Son Nhut. Although the 315th Group was an element of the 315th Air Division, the group's responsibilities included developing tactics and techniques and providing technical advice on airlift matters. Operational command of the group rested with the Commander, MACV, who in theory exercised control through his Air Force component command, the 2d Air Division. The original Dirty Thirty pilots eventually rotated home during early 1963 and were replaced by a second contingent of American pilots. This detachment remained with the VNAF until December 1963 when they were withdrawn from Vietnam. " regards Dave |
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I asked my dad if he knew what the Vietnamese translation was and he believes it is "Dirty Thirty". However he remebers they made a spare tire cover with the insignia and every time they went into Saigon with the jeep they would get "snickers" from the Vietnames as they went by. He wasn't sure if this was the look of the patch or "BA MUOI LAM" Dave |
To all on this thread
Forgot to tell everyone that Todd gave me his dad's number and I my dad's number. I'm happy to report that my dad called Todd's and they talked for over 2 hours. This was probably the first time they had talked with each other since 1963. I just have to say what a GREAT site this is that after all these years how to ole pilot's could get togeather, reminisce and just see how each other was doing !! Thank you "Patriotfiles.com" Dave |
Wow...
What a great story! We are proud of what David has done here. So glad this worked out. How cool!
Pack |
What Packo said. Sweet!
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amazing,..
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...That the world of computers does so much,... ...cogratulations on helping bring these two together to fly again,... ... bring um to the mtn,... ... |
Guy's thank you for the kind words I have always loved history and it is much more fun when you are so close to the source.
I have searched over the last 8 or so years on info, much as Todd has trying to find out more info on my dad’s squadron, much to no avail or very limited info. I too tried the AF museum, as I remember visiting when we were at Chanute and went over to Wright – Pat and they at that time had a small display of the “Dirty Thirty” I did at one time find info that my dad totally disputes and that is in the origin of the name “The Dirty Thirty” According to AF museum it was said they never changed their uniforms often so they were “Dirty Pilots” According to my dad when they first got together someone in the squadron remembered a college football team known as the “Dirty Thirty” and that is how they came up with the name. Probably at the officer’s club over to many scotch’s (remember the Army only drinks beer <☺ ) the Air Force drink’s scotch!!! You can imagine at 14 or 15 in approx 67 – 68, the profound pride in seeing your dad’s picture along with 29 others, 1 KIA, in the AF museum !! It really felt like looking at 30 of the finest pilot’s in the world! I hope to ad much more to this thread. It’s also in my spare time !!! Inspired me to maybe write an article “ Air Force Brat, even worse an officer’s Brat at that” Dave |
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I am an Air Force brat, an airline brat, the son of a pilot and the son of an officer. I am damned proud of it all ..... but most especially my dad. Here's to them .... those who left .... and those who still remain! Todd |
Hello everyone
I’m watching all of the accolades for John F. Kennedy on the anniversary of his assignation. Since this is a history site I need to give my prospective on history, from the first person prospective. I'm a military brat from a time where we were very much apart of our fathers lifestyle. We lived breathed "packed boxes" every three years I would like to give all of you the perspective of a child of 8 years old who’s father that was sent to a place called “Vietnam” My dad was one of the first combatant’s sent to Vietnam under Kennedy after succumbing to the advise of Gen. Maxwell Taylor. This A-Hole was so depressed that DOD money was going to the AF and Navy he needed to “Create” a new war!!!! Was John Kennedy a great President? His Inauguration speech will absolutely is something to go down as one of the great inaugration speeche's of all times! However! Was he a great President? Absolutely not!!! Bay of Pigs! Missile crisis? John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam War. Johnson took to the next level and beyond! In the eyes of this 8 year old in 1962, John F. Kennedy was a mediocre President at best. I know there are those that feel that JFK was wonderful President, but I ask are your feelings because of his of his accomplishments? Or solely based on his assignation? FYI my dad Maj Carl R. Erickson is not doing well and I will update you on his condition after tomorrow. I love you Dad Dave |
Simply acts of kindness
While at Travis AFB hospital, my dad (the Major) had a medical assistant Stephani from NJ. She is a vegitarian and my dad teased her that he left some "sausage for her" but she was so kind to my dad. So I could see that she was a 2 stripper, and is that airman !st class? So she mentioned she just bought a new Digital camera, red of course and needed a case, so being the Nor Cal rep for Tamrac, I went to my car grabbed the appropriate case for her camera. Brought it back up and the smiles and grins were priceless when I gave her the case and said "Thank you for your service, and especially being so Kind to my dad" she smiled back and said "your Dad is easy" !! I will probably wil never see her again but it sure felt, "GREAT" I'll give you more examples of how my dad ALWAYS treated the enlisted! I'm sorry for rambling but my dad is in bad shape. I believe I have found a family that understand's here, though I'm not one of you in battle but feel apart of the whole process. if I'm wrong tell me to go away and it's ok!!!!! This is a hard time watching my dad, hero etc fade away<) Dave |
I'm sorry but while I'm on a roll? This is great thearpy, please endulg!
I talked about how my dad treated the enlised. My dad for the last ten years in the AF flew for "special missions" aka "little SAM" They were basically the Airlines for the Army brass. So they served the best transpotation as well as the best accomodations. I rember my dad telling me that leaving from Hamilton AFB with a "black steward" and going to the "south" circa 65-69. Landing , going to a motel only to be told "sorry sir you have a room but your other crew, "black steward" needs to find another "motel" ! , My dad say's give me a room with 2 beds, the SGT will stay with me!!! Would like to think of my dad as one of the first who treated ALL as equals !!! I love you Dad Dave |
One more time
I sent this to my active duty friend but if any one has advise etc., would be greatly appreciated! A: when the time comes "military funeral" how to go about. My understanding is they won't do much for a retired Major but ??? B: I maybe able to arrange "missing man" from locals but any way to ask for a AF one ? C: With the "Dirty Thirty" they gave him one "Air Medal" they owe him at least 7 clusters, any way to get? D: He was in Korea from 55-56 I believe there is a medal for being there then that he has never received, how do we get? E: This is a tough one. When my dad was in Korea. (I have heard this story over and over but never change so it must be true) They asked for volunteers and of course bachelors first, no reply. So my dad volunteered, with wife and son at home. Now the "rest of the story" On one of the island's of the coast they had a person with an appendasidus (sp attack, who would die without proper medical attention. So Carl said he would fly C-47 by himself, just asked that there be a jeep at each and of the beach and one at the edge of the surf with their lights on so he could land on the beach. So they did, he did and retrieved the soldier at night to a hospital. That's the story and I've always felt that was worth some sort of reconizition (Silver, Bronze, ???) |
The Air Force only gave my dad a single air medal too. Hell, they should have gotten bronze stars, silver stars, DFCs .....
I understand your frustration. I am sorry your dad is not doing well. All my prayers to you and your family. I don't know about military funerals but I am pretty sure that you can arrange one through the Air Force for a retired combat pilot. About 10 years ago my uncle died ... he was an E-7 and he got his military funeral. He didn't die in action .... a G-----med drunk driver killed him in South Carolina. Please keep my dad up to speed on your dad. If there is a service, I know my dad would want to be there. Todd |
What to do for a military funeral
Check this out http://www.cem.va.gov/mhg.asp
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Hi all
I have some good news on my dad. Was at Travis AFB hospital, Sent over to UC Davis in Sacramento. They did some procedures on his lung then sent him back to Travis. Travis sent him home on Sunday !!! He will be going back to Travis for testing next Wed as they think his cancer may not be as bad as originally thought so may be able to treat with radiation. At least he is home. Just wanted to up date Dave |
I am glad your dad is doing well. I hope the holidays are a wonderful, peaceful time for you and your family.
Take care, Todd |
Bau muoi lam
I finally figured out what <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/ /...r><SPAN style=BAU</SPAN></st1:stockticker> MUOI LAM means. :D<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype class=inlineimg id=_x0000_t75 title="" border="0" smilieid="5" stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" alt="" src="images/smilies/images/smilies/tongue.gif" v:shapetype o<> </V:pDad was out here for Thanksgiving (he got to see his 10 month old grandson) and we got to talking about the Dirty Thirty. I told him I was having a hard time figuring out the Vietnamese part of the old unit patch. Dad kind of grinned and got a far away look on his face then explained it this way.
Dad said that <st1:stockticker>BAU</st1:stockticker> MUOI LAM means "33" in Vietnamese, but it is also was the name of a locally brewed beer that had formaldehyde in it and some kind of ungodly high alcohol content. Dad said that was about all they could get to drink unless someone snuck into Saigon for some Budweiser. Dad said the water there would give you some kind of volcanic running shits :eek: and the V/C kept slipping all kinds of nasty stuff into the cokes that managed to get there. So dad said the <st1:stockticker>BAU</st1:stockticker> MUOI LAM beer was the drink that was least likely to kill you and since all the guys were drinking it they decided to put it on their patch. :c: <O:p</O:p Now I know the meaning ..... and the reason there was snickering whenever the jeeps were driven into town. </v:shapetype> |
Keep movin Dave , your always welcome here. Lost my Dad 9 years ago and think about him just about every day. Carp Diem
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Thank you. We've at least got him home. In fact he came out to my office yesterday to get copies made for the stay at UC Davis. Moving a little slow dragging his tank around.
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Roster
1 Attachment(s)
Been meaning to get this done hope it all formats ok. I have listed all members of the "Dirty Thirty" from the squadron picture names are in order as in the picture.
Did picture quickly so had to be at a little angle so no reflection and it is too big to scan. Be interesting to know if anybody here knows or served with any of theses pilots Dave PS How do I keep the format? The Dirty Thirty (Original) Saigon, Vietnam Apr 62 – Apr 63 Roster Name Rank Hometown Note Charles P. Barnett Maj San Bernardino, CA Sq Liaison John Ford Capt Wayzata, MN R.E. Nicholson Maj Fayettevile, N.C. Repl Barnett W.R. Bunker III Capt Bartlett, TX K.I.A. Robert R. Barnett Capt San Antonio TX James W. Bender Capt Kansas City, MO Son of pilot-dad William A. Blackburn LT Clovis, CA Charles B. Coleman Capt Spokane, WA Carl R. Erickson Capt Bellaire, TX My Dad Joseph S. Grant Capt Washington D.C. Dale E. Griffith Capt Brooklyn, Iowa Freeman A. Hall Capt Floyd, VA John A. Herschkorn Capt Thornwood, NY Thomas J. Ingram Capt Detroit, Mich Albert L. Jones Capt Detroit, Mich William P. Kernan Capt New York, NY Jack A. Kimball Capt Fraser, Mich Lloyd P. King Capt Washington, D.C. Tyrus R. Lewis Capt Cut Bank, MT Zane L. Lantz Capt Mansfield, OH Ken M. Maccammond Capt Conemaugh, PA Ronald T. McCoy Capt Elkton, VA Joseph W. McRae Capt Houston, TX Eugene D. Moen Capt Belton, MO Robeson B. Moise Capt Memphis, TN Joe H. Obendorf Capt Parma, Idaho Carter H. Phillips Capt San Antonio, TX John D. Ritenour Capt Strasburg, VA Ridley M. Stuart Capt Hibbing, Minn Harold L. Sweet Capt Washington, D.C. Robert E. Uptmor Capt New Orleans, LA Frank M. Wallis Capt Upper Darby, PA L.S. Waymouth Capt Bayton Rouge, LA |
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