Lest there be a misunderstanding here, lets get a couple of things straight. the Confederate battleflag also known as the CBF was a blue cross of St. Andrew on a red field with thirteen stars. It was known as the battle flag for a reason. The Confederate first national was the Stars and Bars, i.e. a blue canton with three broad stripes, red, white and red. At rest the first national looked like the American flag. Hence much confusion reigned in battle in the early part of the war. Following the First national, was the Second National or stainless banner as it is sometimes called. The Stainless Banner's first official use was as the coffin drape for Stonewall Jackson. This flag was a solid white field with the canton being the CBF to honor the Confederate soldier. Then there was the Third National which was the Second National with a broad red vertical stripe on the fly end. This was adopted in 1865 because the Second National at rest looked like a flag of surrender.

Now the point of the descriptions just enumerated is twofold, one to point out that the Stars and Bars and the CBF are not the same flag which many people mistake them for. Secondly, the battleflag is just that, it was the soldier's flag of the Confederate Army. Generally speaking the Army of Northern Virginia's flag was square while the CBF for the Army of Tennessee was rectangular in shape. These flags did not represent the government. They represented the armies. If any of the PC crowd be they black, white or green have a problem with any flag, it should be the First National AKA Stars and Bars, not the CBF. The First National represented the Nation and its constitution which allowed slavery to exist. And before anyone yells at me for splitting hairs, I want to point out one more thing.

There are a lot of you on this board who served in Viet Nam with honor. You went because it was your duty. I am sure that not all of you wanted to go. I am equally sure that some of you were against the war period, BUT you went anyway. You fought under the U.S. banner because it was your duty. You may not have agreed with our government's policies but you went. Now tell me what the US flag meant to soldiers (no qualifiers) in Viet Nam. You can't do it can you? Because it means something different for everybody.

The same holds true for the Confederate soldier. Slapping a racist label on him sickens me. He fought like a hell cat for that flag, BUT what did it mean for him? Was he a proponent of slavery or was he simply protecting his home and family from an invader. Did he have a higher regard for states rights than federalism?

We are one country now, but the Confederate flag, LIKE the Flag of the Republic of Texas was a piece of our history. 250,000 Southern American soldiers died defending that flag therefore it deserves a place of honor with our other flags. It deserves nothing more and nothing less.


Bill

:ad:
Thank you Tamaroa...thank you

It would be fascinating to learn any historical details about exactly how/when and by whom the decision was made to choose a version of the Cross of St. Andrews (of all possible designs!) for Confederate applications. A brief search of ASK JEEVES showed that the St. Andrews cross flag (the "Saltire") is the national flag of Scotland since about the 12th century, and was combined with the national flag of Ireland (St. Patrick's cross) to form the national flag of England (the Union Jack). Hmmmmmm...

Some of us got into a discussion about this at another site. (Hey, Bill! Were you involved in the discussion?) What is popularly known as the Confederate Battle Flag, or the Stars and Bars, is actually the Confederate Battle Jack, or the Confederate Naval Ensign. The Confederate Battle Flag is another banner altogether.

Most people who object to the Confederate Battle Flag don't even know the proper terminology for the symbol to which they object. (What else is new?)

http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/southflg.html

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/flags/fedflag.shtml

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

JeffL
Thanks for those links, went to them right away, learned a lot.
Bluehawk

Hi Jeff,

If you are talking about that OTHER site, yes, I tangled with a number of people about the Confederate Battleflag. we had more civil discussions about it on alan's site at one point, as well.


To All:
Please purchase a large portfolio paperback book by Devereaux D. Canon entitled, Flags of the Confederacy an Illustrated History.
I promise you that you will learn more about the Confederate flag and its origins than you would probably care to but it tells you in detail how the original flag design came about and how the battleflag made its appearance. Initially it was one of the proposals for the National Flag but with less stars and it was derided as looking like a pair of suspenders.

You also will learn about the origin of the state flags and a real interesting tidbit about the fact that three former Confederate states fly the same flags that they flew during the Civil War when those flags flew over slavery. Interestingly enough no one is castigating them for still flying those flags!!!

At any rate the book is full of interesting facts and should be read by anyone who intends to debate for or against the Confederate Battle Flag.

Bill

The cross of St. Andrew
 

History repeats it self at times. King Robert the Bruce of Scotland created the new order of Knights Templar in 1314 following the battle of Bannockburn. Their previous order had been destroyed in 1307, its properties and possessions confiscated,and their leaders killed. Some fled to Scotland and, joining the army of King Bruce, fought and helped defeat an invasion of Scotland by King Edward II of England. As a result of this bravery King Bruce created the Order of St. Andrew of Scotland of which they were received.
As we trace our historical journey from remote periods, we should remember there are four ways to look- backward, inward,upward, and forward.
Upward and forward is a great direction to look. As one cynic ask a country boy," What will you do when they tear down the churches?" The reply was immortality:" We still have the stars!"To press forward and upward,instructed and inspired by the past as did the men with " BRAVE HEARTS"who flew the battle flag with the Cross of St. Andrew in Scotland.

Interesting reading. Not a student of U.S. history.

The Union Jack is a combiation of three flags and represents Great Britain & Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom not just England. It consists of the flags of:-

St.Andrew, Scotland - blue background with white diagonal cross;

St.George, England - white background with red right angle cross

and

St.???, Wales - white background with red diagonal cross

An excellent example of how the politically correct get their way is represented by the current Canadian Flag. The French quater had to get that Union Jack of the Canadian Flag. I wonder how many 'old' flags fly over Canadian War Graves?????

A star in a flag acknowledges that we are of the stars!

:o:
NOW we're getting somewhere! Its all starting to make complete sense, and I hope many others are learning from this thread too. Thank you all!
Bluehawk

It is now a year later... nothing has changed. Forums and threads on this topic persist.

Two days ago vociferous defenders of the right of our United States people to display the Ten Commandments in a public building held their rally in Montgomery, Alabama... behind every speaker flew the State flag, an obvious humbly limned tribute to those who gave their lives that this nation might be one.