War - Israeli AF
 

News reports in the past month have shown light on a small group of Israeli airmen (Reserves, I think) who have refused to fly missions against the enemy on the grounds that their aircraft are american-made.

This brings up interesting (to me) questions:

> What about ALL the other military equipment and financing Israel's armed forces receive from America?
> Are there any other examples of this kind in military history?
> Would the dissidents fly those same aircraft if the mission were NOT against an enemy?

:q: :af:

BLUE
 

As I read the news item, the refusal to fly on the part of some of the Zoomie Reservists was because of their projected targets. Some had expressed grave reservations (pun indended!) about the very distinct possibility of collateral damage, and were questioning the government's policy vis a vis the Palestinian question. Much of the Israeli military equipment is US-made, although they do produce a home-grown tank in lieu of our M1.

Scout -
A vital distinction with a difference you have made...

One has cause to wonder, IS this case one of refusal to obey an "unlawful order", in your professional opinion?

I guess that's their decision to make and not mine. After the USS Liberty, I don't trust the little sonsofbitches as far as I could throw them anyway. Should have cut off military aid to them forty years ago. Let them go back to stealing Mirages for all I care.

I don't like the idea of countries based on religion. Especially trying to carve one out of land already occupied by people who don't like you.

We only supported them out of Holocaust guilt and Soviet aid to their neighbors. The Nazis are gone, the Soviets are gone - time to let 'em sink or swim on their own.

Des -
You are a man whose opinion is of my liking on this point.

"I don't like the idea of countries based on religion.", either, particularly when they swear they ain't!

Des
 

You have hit on what I have long held to be one of the greatest white-washes in all of history, the untold story of how the USS Liberty could have been so violently attacked by an alleged ally. I know a little bit about the fog of war, and how things can get confusing on the battlefield, but a large ship, clearly differentiated from the dhows, cigarette boats, and other insignificant surface craft in the area could be assumed to be a proper target is way beyond my level of comprehension. And of course, it is politically incorrect to question why we give, not loan, but give so much foreign aid to Israel, and receive so little back in return is also a mystery, particularly in view of how they have sold, not given, some rather sophisticated weapon techonology to the Commie Chinese, no friend of either.

With regard to the pilot's refeusal to fly certain missions, I believe it's a function of questionable orders based on the basis of morality.

Recalling the days of my youth, I had a stamp album with some British stamps, overprinted with "Palestine" to denote the Brits' administrative efforts there; I feel they later caved under continued terrorists attacks, one led by Menaghim Begin, who later became PM os Israel. I don't trust them, and see them as driven only by their internal self interests. Went to military school with a couple of their officers, and they were about as cold as my first ex-wife's heart.

re the Liberty.

There was an extremely eye-opening documentary on TV recently. At the time of the attack, USS America off Cyprus immediately launched a retaliatory strike "condition November" - nuclear armed, destination - Cairo. Supposedly, McNamara himself called 'em back ten minutes or so from target. Kind of an unprecedented over-reaction, dontcha think? And you thought the Cuban crisis was bad.

Meanwhile, years later, some guy is requesting Liberty material under FOI and finds one odd piece of paper in the volumes of material referring to "303 Committee" and "Project Cyanide". Turns out 303 Committee is just down the street from the Whitehouse, and Project Cyanide is some joint US-Israeli operation of unknown purpose.

The basic (conspiracy) theory now is that some of our people and some of Israel's people got together and set the whole thing up to take out Nasser in a mushroom cloud, and the only reason it didn't happen is because the heroes of the Liberty were topside rigging antennas under fire and getting out that crucial SOS - and flat out refusing to sink.

So there it is. There's contradictory evidence and interviews and nobody can prove a thing, of course, but there's this suggestion of this weird Dr. Strangelove scenario with just enough evidence to make it plausible.

Scary.

Somethin' in my eye here Des...

Here's to the Liberty.

If you would like more information about the deliberate and unlawful Israeli attack on USS Liberty, visit my site USS Liberty Court of Inquiry or the even better site operated by my friend, Jim Ennes USS Liberty Memorial. Jim was on the bridge when the attack started and had his leg shattered early in the attack. He is also the author of Assault on the Liberty .