Senate Select Committee Testimony & Depositions |
UNITED STATES SENATE
DEPOSITION OF SCOTT TRACY BARNES
COMMITTEE CONFIDENTIAL
Friday, March 6, 1992
Washington, D.C.
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DEPOSITION OF SCOTT TRACY BARNES
Friday, March 6, 1992
U.S. Senate
Select Committee on POW/MIA
Affairs
Washington, D. C.
Deposition of SCOTT TRACY BARNES, the witness
herein, called for examination by counsel for the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, pursuant to notice, in Room S-407, The Capitol, commencing at 10:23 a.m., the witness having been duly sworn by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, and the proceedings being taken down by Stenomask by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed under her direction.
On behalf of the Select Committee on POW/MIA
Affairs:
DINO CARLUCCIO
Deputy Staff Director
NEAL KRAVITZ, ESQ.
ROBERT TAYLOR
STEVE GEKOSKI
box: DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 10501
By PMoore NARA, Date 8-3-93
C O N T E N T SWITNESSES:Scott Tracy Barnes
EXAMINATION:By Mr. Kravitz
P R O C E E D I N G SWhereupon,
SCOTT TRACY BARNES,
the witness herein, called for examination by counsel for the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs and having been duly sworn by the Notary Public, were examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF THE SELECT COMMITTEEBY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Mr. Barnes, why don't we just start by having you tell us your full name for the record.
A. Scott Tracy Barnes, B-a-r-n-e-s.
Q. And Tracy is spelled how?
A. T-r-a-c-y.
Q. The first thing we're going to do is just have some exhibits that have been previously marked admitted into the record. The first is Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of the notice of Senate deposition that was served on you, I understand.
A. Yes, by the United States Marshals.
Q. Does Exhibit No. 1 look like an accurate copy of the notice that you received?
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Exhibit No. 2 is a copy of the subpoena that was serve on you for today?'s deposition. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Does that look like an accurate copy?
A. Yes, it does.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. And Exhibit No. 3 is just a copy of the authority and rules of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)
THE WITNESS: And I received a copy of this; yes.
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Have you reviewed the copy of the rules?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Let me ask you this first. Have you ever been in a deposition before?
A. Yes.
Q. So you understand how it works?
A. Yes.
Q. Just so it's clear on the record, as you know, you've been sworn, and all your testimony fill be under oath, subject to perjury.
A. Correct.
Q. The way the deposition is going to proceed is I'm going to ask questions, and you're going to give answers. It's very important that you understand the question before you answer it. If you have any doubt about whether you understand the question, just let me know. No one is served by your answering a question if you don't fully understand it. Our interest, as I said before we went on the record, is to get as much accurate information as we can. And if you don't understand my question, I think our interest is going to be foiled. You obviously don't want to be giving answers under oath to questions if you don't understand them. So please, I won't be insulted. Just tell me that my question is bad, it's unclear. And we can rephrase it. A lot of the subjects that we're going to be talking about, you know a whole lot more about than I do. And that's why you're here. So I may not be asking the best questions.
A. Okay.
Q. Some of the questions that I ask you, you may have information that you know not only from your own observations, but from observations that other people have related to you.
A. Okay, yes.
Q. Commonly known as hearsay information. I'm interested in knowing both what you know from your own observations, and what you know from what other people have told you about their observations. But it's very important for you to tell us what you know from what you saw yourself, what you smelled yourself, what you heard yourself.
A. Firsthand.
Q. And what other people are telling you,
A. Okay.
Q. So if something you're telling me is based on hearsay, just let us know.
A. No problem,
Q. If you don't tell us something is based on hearsay, we're going to assume that it's based on firsthand knowledge.
A. Okay.
Q. Try to be as complete as possible in your answers. If you start rambling on and getting irrelevant, we'll interrupt you.
A. That it's irrelevant.
Q. But again, our purpose here is to get as much information as possible. So try to give it to us in as much detail as possible. There may be occasions where we ask for your opinion about why somebody said something or about why somebody did something. In those cases, obviously you're free to speculate and give your opinion. Because that's what the question is asking for.
Otherwise, if we're just asking you factual questions, and you don't know the answer without speculating, it's better to tell us. And I'm going to instruct you to tell us that you don't know the answer without speculated. We're perfectly interested in what your speculat?ion would be, but it's important for us to know that it is speculation. Do you understand that?
A. Right.
Q. I had a telephone conversation, I believe on Tuesday of this week -- which is March 3 -- with Neil Goldstein. Is it correct to say that Neil Goldstein who has advised you regarding your rights in this deposition?
A. That is correct.
Q. Have you had a sufficient amount of time to discuss your rights with Mr. Goldstein?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have any questions for him that you feel you need to ask him before the deposition begins?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. I have Mr. Goldstein's telephone number here. Just for the record, it's area code (213) 828?-1000. And I just want to make it clear on the record that if at any time you feel you need to consult with Mr. Goldstein before answering a question, you're free to ask for a recess and try to reach him by telephone.
A. Okay.
Q. I haven't discussed with the people outside the room what arrangements could be made. But I'm confident that arrangements could be made. If worse comes to worst, we can go back to our office and make a telephone available to you. My interest is in making the arrangements, as much as possible, to be as if he were here.
A. No problem, I appreciate that.
Q. I know that Mr. Goldstein requested the Committee to pay for his expenses to fly out here. And the answer was that we couldn't do that. So just so that you're at as little disadvantage as possible, we wanted to make it so that he's here at least in voice, if not in person.
A. Okay.
Q. On that same issue, regarding access to Mr. Goldstein, we discussed off the record the Fifth Amendment privilege not to incriminate yourself.
A. Right.
Q. Just to go over again what we said, I will do everything I can not to ask you a question, the answer to which would tend to incriminate you of a crime. Sometimes it might happen by mistake, if I don't know what your answer would be, and in order to answer a question truthfully you did have to say something that would incriminate you or tend to incriminate you. If you think your answer might tend to incriminate you, you should just tell me. And we can either recess for you to call Mr. Goldstein, or if there's no question that your answer would incriminate you or intend to incriminate you, you can just take the Fifth.
A. Or it might be something you could clear up yourself, on the spot, to my satisfaction, also.
Q. Okay.
A. Great.
Q. Let me ask you this -- do you have a flight that you're supposed to be on?
A. I believe -- unless it's been changed -- they talked about leaving late today because of some economical things with the Senate. Unless that's changed, it's still tomorrow. I can stay as long as you need. That isn't a problem -- as long as you give me a place to lie my head. So I'm here at your disposal. So you do what you need to do. And I'll work it out logistically.
Q. It's 10:30 now. I think what I'd like to do is go for about an hour and 15 minutes -- maybe until quarter of 12, and then break until 12:00. And then maybe go from 12:00 until 1:00; break for lunch; and then come back and have a similar-type schedule this afternoon, until we finish.
(Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Apparently there's some papers you need to sign at 12:00 regarding your reimbursement for your expenses?. So why don't we break at 12:00 for lunch, because the papers are going to be over in the Hart Building. And then come back at 1:00. And I understand that at 3:00 you need to go back over to the Hart Building, with our clerk, who is Nancy Cuddy, with those papers, to get your reimbursement. So why don't we try to schedule our breaks around those events. Okay.
A. I know this is going to be rude and inconsiderate of me to ask this. But is there a possibility at all of any coffee? Or, are we stuck with water?
Q. I don't know the answer to that.
A. Just thought I'd ask.
Q. We already got your full name. What's your father's full name?
A. Charles Ray -- R-a-y -- Barnes -- B-a-r-n-e-s.
Q. What was your mother's maiden name?
A. Poole, P-o-o-l-e.
Q. What's her first name?
A. Stephanie.
Q. What's your date of birth?
A. 6/19/1954.
Q. So you are
A. I'll be 38 in 2, 3 months.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Burbank, California, St. Joseph's Hospital.
Q. What's your social security number?
A. 550-76-8371.
Q. Where are you living now?
A. Prescott, Arizona.
Q. What's your address?
A. Mailing or physical? Mailing is P.O. Box XXXX Prescott, Arizona, XXXXX.
Q. What's your physical address?
A. XXX XXX XXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. And I think the community is called Dewey. It's just outside the city limits of Prescott, Arizona.
Q. Dewey is?
A. D-e-w-e-y.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. 5 weeks.
Q. Where were you living before that?
A. XXX XXXXXXXXXX, Pine Top, Arizona.
Q. How long were you living there?
A. 7 weeks.
Q. Are these near each other?
A. Heavens no.
Q. How far apart?
A. Oh, that's probably 170, 180 miles or more.
Q. Why did you move?
A. Well, after a visit from the FBI, I lost a job at the Apache Nation and went to Prescott.
Q. Are you working in Prescott?
A. No, I'm trying to get a business started with the SBA.
Q. What kind of a business?
A. A clothing store for children.
Q. What stage are you at in your attempts to get the business started?
A. Well, everything is done. All I have to do is get the money.
Q. What happened with the FBI 5 weeks ago?
A. Well, I had gotten a visit from an FBI agent by the name of Roger Toronto -- a nice fellow. And we went to lunch. Later on he had called and said, out of the blue, I think you and I need to share some intelligence back and forth, being as the position you have on the Apache Nation. At first I thought that a little bit odd. He was an excellent agent. He was an embassy agent that came up from Uruguay recently. And I said, okay. I called Ross Perot, and I told Ross what was going on. And he said kind of feel the guy out to see where he was coming from. The agent introduced me to his organized crime counterpart out of the Phoenix Bureau, Doug Hopkins. And Roger had called and said look. I need to get some information from you so I can run an international security check on you so you can have a security clearance.
So I gave him the everything that he wanted. And he called back about 10 days later when Bo Gritz was in town running for president -- which was rather puzzling. And he said I lost the information, can he get it again. So I gave it to him again -- and I don't know how much detail you want to go into this.
Q. Let me ask you this: what's the Apache Nation?
A. It's the native American tribe, the Apache Nation, White River, Arizona.
Q. What were you doing for them?
A. I was the supervisor in charge of all child abuse investigations -- anybody under 18 that died on the reservation, it was my duty to investigate it, any serious child abuse, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Q. How big a population is that?
A. The Nation is about 12,000 registered tribal members.
Q. You had that job for how long?
A. About 7 or 8 weeks.
Q. How did you get that job?
A. That's what I'd like to know. I had gotten a call when I was living in Flagstaff, saying we're interested in having you come down here to work for us. You'll technically be a tribal employee. You'll be the first white man to ever have a position, so treat it with extreme caution. Shannon Pike and myself went down there. And I was given the job right on the spot. And instead of starting off at normal pay, they increased it to top pay -- which was rather surprising.
Q. What was your pay?
A. It was supposed to be like $26 000. And they said oh, we're going to give you $30,000 plus, plus -- which was very unusual.
Q. Did you have any background in investigating child abuse?
A. Um-hum. I was a social worker in the State of Washington and did child abuse there.
Q. So you were there for 7 weeks?
A. Approximately 7 weeks.
Q. Where were you working before that?
A. Well, before that I wasn't. I was living in Flagstaff with Shannon Pike, who's dad's an MIA. And before that I was in the State of Washington as a social worker.
Q. How much time passed between when you were working as a social worker in Washington State and when you left Flagstaff to go to Apache Nation?
A. 7 months.
Q. And you just got called out of the blue by the Apache Nation?
A. Um-hum.
Q. Did you know anyone there?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever figure out how they found you?
A. I assume -- and this is only an assumption -- that it was one of these innocuous, you know, send a resume to these P.O. Boxes and they market it out. I had sent several of those in response to several -- various ads. And I didn't know, and still don't to this day.
Q. What happened after your 7 weeks at the Apache Nation, were you fired?
A. What had happened, there was a couple homicides of some 2-year-old kids. And I solved one with George Poplin, the CI. And they didn't want to look into any further. And then there was another girl who died under strange circumstances. And they didn't want that looked into. They wanted her body immediately disposed of.
Q. Who is they?
A. The tribe.
Q. What do you mean?
A. The Chairman, who lives here in town, Ronny Lupe. So my superior says, look, you've got to understand one thing. We're a Nation within a Nation. And we don't like outside people telling us how and what to do. So the 27th of January my immediate superior came in and said we're tired of getting phone calls from Washington. I need your resignation right now, and I need all your identifications and all your files. And I said I'm not going to play politics here. Here it is, goodbye. And that was it.
Q. Were there any allegations of wrongdoing?
A. Oh, no.
Q. You didn't fight it at all?
A. No, I don't fight anything anymore. I don't care.
Q. How are you supporting yourself now?
A. I'm not. I went into great debt in borrowing a substantial sum of money to do business. Unfortunately, unless SBA kicks in, I'm sunk. Prior to that, I was living with Shannon, like I said. But we're no longer together. I have rent that's due today. I have no income, no unemployment -- nothing.
Q. You mentioned that the people at the Apache Nation told you they were tired of people calling from D.C.
A. Um-hum.
Q. Did you ever find out what they meant by that? Who was supposedly calling?
A. Well, in one instance -- let me try to explain that. Because one of the investigators, George Poplin, a white gentleman from the tribe, he said Scotty, he said something is going on -- major phone calls are going on. Everybody is looking into -- everybody thinks you work for the Government, and you are a plant. Because they need to ask you -- the Chief of Police of the Apache Nation asked me to come here. Do you work for the United States Government in any way, shape, or form? And I said no. I do not. I did when I worked for the Nation. But other than that, no. He goes, well there's a lot of suspicion. Supposedly right after you left all these murder documents disappeared.
And I said, oh, I see the game you're going to try to play. You're going to try to say I stole all the homicide documents when I was the one who was working murders with you. He said, I know, Scott, it's all bunk. But just so you're aware of that, when I asked Ms. Red Steer -- and there's some documents in there with her signature on it -- she said we just can't handle this anymore. I don't know who you work for. I don't know why you're here. We don't know why you even got hired.
Q. I know I asked you previously not to speculate, but this is a question that calls for speculation. Who do you think was calling from Washington, D.C.?
A. I have absolutely no idea. I know that there was a concern that Assistant Secretary -- Dr. Eddie Brown, over here, had made some calls. And I went to see him this morning. And, of course, he refused to see me. So I don't know. I'd like to see their phone logs. But she would never even tell me. And when I saw Ronny Lupe with Steve the other day, that just really surprised me. Because even he -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- when Steve and I were getting ready to go in the elevator, it was well, what are you doing here? I says well, I fluffed it off. But he also bought Attaha. And Attaha is one of the people we were looking into with one of the homicides, who is Vice Chairman of the Apache Nation. To me it was too coincidental... But I don't know who called from Washington. They won't tell me. By all means, call George Poplin, the Apache Police Department. He's an honorable guy.
Q. Do you believe that those calls had anything to do with your involvement in the POW issue?
A. No, no, I do not. If they do, and you find out, let me know.
Q. How long were you doing child abuse investigation work in the State of Washington?
A. 5 months.
Q. How long were you living in the State of Washington before you moved to Arizona?
A. Just that 5-month period. I left California to go accept this position in Washington.
Q. Where in Washington was that?
A. I was working out of the Colville -- out of Spokane, north of Spokane office.
Q. How do you spell it?
A. C-o-l-v-i-l-l-e.
Q. What was your position there?
A. I was a Social Worker II -- Roman numeral 2 --Child Abuse Investigations.
Q. Why did you leave that after 5 months?
A. I had a visit from two agents of the OSI who said that they were getting faxes from Washington, D.C. Basically one was an intelligence memo that I was out to assassinate Saddam Hussein. Another one was pages of kiss the boys good-bye. Another fax was that I was a member of the Arian Nation. You'd have to ask the agents. The faxes went from this end of the table to the next. There was hundreds of them, literally. So one of the agents says that it's probably in your best interest that you immediately resign and move out of Washington.
Q. Who was that agent?
A. You'd have to ask Olympia, Washington. I don't remember.
Q. Was it an FBI agent?
A. No, OSI -- Office of Special Investigations for the State of Washington. At least their credentials were State of Washington.
Q. A State official?
A. Uh-huh -- the man to ask would be Roy Harrington, if you can track him down. Because he tried to fight the system. He said I may be -- and I may be mistaken in this because it was a conversation that didn't interest me too much -- he said the Governor's office is getting these faxes, these faxes that are anonymously going to -- you name it -- to churches, to police departments, to anybody that has a fax machine. That's where they're going. So finally the Sheriff of the county issued me a gun permit, advised me to carry a firearm. Because one of the people they suspected of doing this is now one of the FBI's 10 Most Wanted.
Q. Don't most faxes have, on the top, the number that they're faxed from?
A. And it was a Washington, D.C. number. And all they know is -- I think it was a K Street foreign business. However, the only problem with this is -- and they still have the faxes as evidence up there because they brought in the FBI -- is you can put in any phone number that you want. And that was who they suspect this FBI guy did. Because he just started randomly punching in other people's fax numbers, trying to get all the investigators looking in a different direction. I think one fax number may have been Honolulu. I mean it was bizarre. But yet to answer your question, it also had a phone just like this one on it. But Sergent Lavonne Webb of the Stevens County Sheriff's Department is the main man that was involved in the investigation with OSI; and Jim Davis was the FBI agent out of Spokane.
Q. Who is this guy Harrington?
A. Roy Harrington -- he should now be in Olympia. He's a head honcho with the Department of Social and Health Services, State of Washington. And he's the one that said I don't want you to resign. He goes, there has been such political power to get rid of you, Scott. And he says I put my neck on the block to keep you. He goes you're an excellent social worker. Somebody very powerful is obviously trying to undermine you. And I said, you know, I'm not going to fight it anymore.
Q. Do you have any idea who was sending those faxes?
A. Well, yeah. This FBI's 10 Most Wanted character that wiped-out all the Immer family, and also assassinated his girlfriend, Robert Allen Suggs -- a/k/a Robert Michael Allen -- who supposedly was hired to do it; ex-Air Force security; former cop.
Q. So this is your belief?
? A. The FBI said they pretty much tied him in with other people. But obviously not telling me -- so I don't know. For all I know it could have been any number of people.
Q. Do you believe that those faxes had anything to do with your involvement in the POW issue?
A. Oh, heavens, yes. A lot of it surrounded the POW issue, at great length.
Q. The subject in the faxes?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Was the POW issue?
A. Not all of them, but a lot of them, yeah.
Q. Did you ever see what actually had arrived?
A. I saw probably 30 or 40 of the faxes. One was a bogus intelligence fax; another one was a Saddam Hussein hit fax; another one was -- I was an international drug smuggler fax; I was a member of the KKK fax. I mean you'd have to ask the authorities because they have them up there as evidence.
Q. Have you ever had any connection with the KKK?
A. Never.
Q. Let's not get too far afield, here. Let me ask you some questions just about your education. Did you graduate from high school?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. Redondo Union High School, Redondo Beach, California, June 1972.
Q. Did you ever go to college?
A. Yes, in the Army I went to -- I think it's now called Pierce College. On the post it was called Fort Steilacom Community College; St. Mary's College, up in Washington State; El Camino College, in Torrence, where I got my A.A. Degree in the Administration of Justice; then Saddleback College for the ?DEA school in Orange County; Marimar College for the San Diego Sheriff's College in San Diego; Empire State College, State University of New York, External Degree, Bachelors, in Human Services; California State University, Domingus, Masters in Humanities; and a host of other schools.
Q. So how many advanced degrees do you have?
A. Advanced?
Q. Or post-high school?
A. Oh, gosh -- three degrees, and 12 or 15 certificates of which I brought with me.
Q. The A.A. degree was from --
A. Administration of Justice from El Camino College, Torrence, California.
Q. And what are the other degree?
A. Bachelors is in Community and Human Services; Masters in Humanities and History.
Q. And those are from which.
A. B.S. is from Empire State College, State University of New York; Masters is California State University, Domingus Hills, Carson, California.
Q. Do you know the years, offhand, roughly?
A. You can look on them, they have them.
Q. Are these copies?
A. Those are yours, yes.
Q. Why don't we mark these as exhibits. I'm marking Exhibit No. 4 -- why don't you tell us what that is?
A. This is a transcript of my bachelors -- I'm sorry, California State University, Domingus Hills, granting me a masters of arts in humanities, August 31, 1987. And I was on academic probation for one semester.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. We don't need to go into that. Why don't we mark this number 5. Why don't you tell us what Exhibit No. 5 is?
A. Exhibit No. 5 is from El Camino College, California. It's a transcript of my associates of arts degree granted1975, and the degree was actually sent to me in 1976. But I graduated in 1975.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 5 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. We have one here marked St. Martin's College, number six. What's number six?
A. It's a copy of the transcript of the course I took at St. Martin's College in Olympia, Washington, while I was assigned to the 14th Military Police Company, 1974.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 6 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. And I'm showing what's been marked as Exhibit No. 7.
A. It's a transcript copy of Sandy Hill Community College District, of my coursework, spring of 1976 when I attended the San Diego Sheriff's Academy.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 7 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. And one more. Exhibit No. 8?
A. 8 is Ft. Steilacom Community College, transcript of coursework I took while serving in the United States Army at Ft. Lewis, Washington.
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 8 for identification.)
THE WITNESS: There are a few more in there somewhere.
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. I'm showing you now Exhibit Now 9.
A. Exhibit No, 9 is a copy of my degree from State University of New York, Empire State College, Bachelor of Science, issued March 1986,
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No, 9 for identification,)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. And I've got one more in front of me. And then let's move on, But this one looks like another degree that we should put in the record,
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 10 for identification.)
THE WITNESS: Exhibit No, 10 is A copy of my masters degree from California State University, Domingus Hills, conferred August 1987,
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. I lied when I said just one more. Because here's your A.A. degree from El Camino College, Why don't we mark that as number 11
(The document referred to was marked Exhibit No, 11 for identification.)
THE WITNESS: Number 11 is really two. It's a double copy. It's the associate of arts degree from El Camino college, issued June 1976. Below it is a copy of additional training from San Diego Community College, San Diego Sheriff's Department.
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. So you graduated from high school in 1972?
A. Yes.
Q. And you entered the Army in what year?
A. I signed up -- my entry date, I believe; was July 16th. I came back to the United States July 16, 1973.
Q. You graduated from high school --
A. In June of 1972.
Q. Did you travel out of the United States in the year between the time you graduated from high school and the time you enlisted in the Army?
A. Yes, extensively.
Q. Where did you go?
A. Mexico, Tahiti, American Samoa, Western Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, New Caladonia, New Zealand, Australia, Bali, Cuala Lamphoor, Hong Kong, Red China, the Philippines, Vietnam.
Q. The record should reflect that Mr, Barnes is consulting his passport.
(Pause,)
A. I'm pretty sure that's most of the countries during that time.
Q. Was there any purpose other than just vacation that you were going to these countries?
A. All except two, pretty much the rest -- Australia and Vietnam -- were other than that.
Q. When did you go to Vietnam?
A. I arrived in Thon Son Nhut in March 1973.
Q. For the record, is that North Vietnam or South Vietnam?
A. South Vietnam.
Q. What was your purpose in going to South Vietnam in March of 1973?
A. Being as it's an area that isn't relevant to the POW/MIA issue, that I would rather not discuss...
Q. Unless you think that there's a Fifth Amendment issue, we are going to direct you to answer that question, Because it is, in our view, relevant to the POW issue.
A. Maybe you could tell me why you think that's relevant?
Q. Well, trips to Vietnam --
A. I'll invoke the 5th on the trip to Vietnam.
Q. Is it your position that there was something illegal about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's talk about your trip to Australia. When were you in Australia?
A. It was 1973, I believe, I'm looking for the stamp -- oh, okay -- February 1973.
Q. How long were you in Australia?
A. I think it was about 2 -- maybe 3 weeks -- maybe a little longer.
Q. What was the purpose of that trip?
A. Predominantly tourist.
Q. But you said previously that Vietnam and Australia were the two countries that you went to for reasons other than being a tourist.
A. Yeah, but I mean predominantly it was tourism.
Q. What was the purpose other than tourism?
A. I don't think that's area, I was sent up to a place called Pine Gap, in the Womerea Rocket Range in Central Australia.
Q. Who sent you there?
A. A man by the name of Dr. Joseph Bissett, B-i-s-s-e-t-t.
Q. Who is he?
A. That's what I'd like to know, I don't know who he was.
Q. How did it come about that he sent you to this area that I won't even pretend to try to pronounce?
A. We had met in New Caladonia. We're talking a long time ago, now. He had instructed me to go to the Vietnamese officials in Canberra, Australia, and to meet him later on in Vietnam. And then in the meantime, for some extra economic assistance, if I would head on up to the Woemera Rocket Range I would meet somebody there who might be of some assistance there.
Q. Who might be of some assistance?
A. Right.
?Q. In what?
A. Whatever is going on at that time in Pine Gap.
Q. What was going on in Pine Gap?
A. I have no idea.
Q. What happened when you got to Pine Gap?
A. The Australian officials with the United States Air Force officials had some discussions about me being on the installation.
C O N T I N U E DQ. What is Pine Gap?
A. Part of Pine Gap and the Woemera Rocket Test Range -- and I don't know this to be a fact -- was a testing center or joint military operation of our Government and their government. And that's basically all I know about it.
Q. Did you have any affiliation with the United States Government during your trip to Australia in 1973?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. If I did, I was not aware of it.
Q. How could you have had an affiliation with the United States Government without knowing about it?
A. Well, if I worked for somebody in the private sector and they worked for the Government, and I was an extension of them, and they didn't tell me, then I wouldn't be aware of it.
Q. Okay, Well, what did you do when you got to Pine Gap?
A. I believe I stayed there about 3 or 4 days, maybe.
Q. What did you do in those 3 or 4 days?
A. Like I say it's been a long time -- met with some American Air Force personnel. Other than that --
Q. What did you meet with the Air Force personnel about?
A. They were discussing rocket testing. That's a long time ago, And I don't think it's relevant to the direction that we're heading. So I'd like to move on.
Q. Did you have any training in rocket testing?
A. Oh. heavens no.
Q. Did you have any idea why you were sent up to Pine Gap to discuss rocket testing?
A. Well, no, none whatsoever.
Q. Did you ever question anybody about what you were doing there?
A. No, it was fun and it was adventurous. I was 18.
Q. I'd like to go back to your trip to Vietnam. This is 19 years ago, and I guess I'm not convinced that there is anything you could tell us for which there is even the slightest shred of possibility that you could ever be prosecuted for it.
A. Well, I think it's an area that is irrelevant.
Q. Okay, but that's not for you to decide. I mean we've already decided that it's relevant to our investigation.
A. See, I don't see how.
Q. You can't take the Fifth just because you think something's irrelevant. You can take the Fifth if you think that what you're going to say -- if you have a good faith reason to believe that what you're going to say is going to incriminate you in a crime that there's a reasonable possibility you might be prosecuted for. And it's for us to decide whether something's relevant.
A. I'll just invoke the Fifth and I will refuse to answer that question.
Q. Even understanding that this is, 19 years ago?
A. I wouldn't care if it was 100 years ago. It doesn't matter. Time is moot.
Q. Well, it does matter. Because as we were discussing before, you understand that there are statutes of limitation, and as we were talking before -- I remember we were talking about a burglary that may have happened.
A. Hypothetical.
Q. Hypothetically that may have happened more years ago than the statute of limitations would permit your prosecution. And you told me that you understood that that would mean that you could be required to answer questions about the burglary, hypothetically.
A. Correct.
Q. So it does make a difference whether something's 19 years ago or 3 years ago or 100 years ago. Do you understand that?
A. Yes, but I think hypothetically it's like our Government -- Kennedy was assassinated in 1963 and they still keep stuff and they don't discuss it.
Q. What does that have to do with this?
A. If there's nothing that needs to be brought out, why not reveal it, is what I'm saying. You're not following.
Q. You've lost me.
A. To me it doesn't matter how long ago it was. There are certain things you just don't discuss. And that is a thing that I will not discuss, and I will invoke the Fifth and refuse to answer.
Q. Just so we know, under oath, you're invoking the Fifth because --
A. Self-incrimination.
Q. Because it's your position that your answer to my question about what you were doing in South Vietnam in 1973 would tend to incriminate you in a crime?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Are you aware of any criminal activity that anyone else was involved in in South Vietnam during your time there?
A. Can you rephrase the question?
Q. Can you tell us what anyone else you observed in South Vietnam was doing?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I just don't see the relevancy to whatever happened 19 years ago has on this prisoner of war investigative body.
Q. We're telling you that it's relevant to our investigation. That's not your decision to make.
A. I'm not aware of any other activities in South Vietnam in 1973, no.
Q. You mentioned a whole list of other countries that you visited during the year between high school and your enlistment in the military. And you told us that you went to all these countries as a tourist.
A. Um-hum.
Q. Is it true that you went to all these eight or so other countries exclusively as a tourist?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go by yourself or with other people?
A. No, I was always by myself.
Q. How were you travelling, what mode of transportation?
A. I would say 99 percent of it was aircraft; 1 percent was hovercraft or boat.
Q. And how were you supporting yourself at that time?
A. Through the initial stage, I had sold some stock that my father, at the time, had recommended -- a penny stock, as they called it back then -- to invest in. And for whatever reason it did quite well.
Q. You say initially that was how you supported yourself. How did you support yourself after that money ran out?
A. Okay, after meeting this individual in New Caladonia, there was money made available in Australia in South Vietnam. At Chase Manhattan Bank in Saigon, I had a think where I could go in there and withdraw funds. And they would stamp, as it is in here, the Citibank of Saigon.
Q. Your passport would get stamped every time you took money out of the Chase Manhattan Bank?
A. That's what they had requested, sir, every time I went in to withdraw. Under my name and passport number they would stamp it. Why, is beyond me.
Q. How much money do you think you spent during the year you were travelling that year?
A. I would say probably 30 -- maybe $20 to $30 thousand dollars in American money -- not counting foreign currency.
Q. And how much of that money came from the stocks -- if you remember?
A. Less than -- oh, $9,000 maybe, approximately.
Q. So in other words, between $11 and $21,000 came from your activities in Australia and Vietnam?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. Now based on what you described as your activities in Australia -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but it doesn't seem as if you would have been paid very much money for going to the Rocket Place for 4 days.
A. No, transportation, housing, spending, cash was in Australian money. That wasn't very much. But on my arrival, as I recall, in Singapore, I had a good sum. And then in Saigon, a substantial sum.
Q. So it's fair to say that most of this money that you were earning was in South Vietnam in whatever activity it was that you have taken the Fifth on?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Between $10,000 and $20,000?
A. I would say $16-ish, yes.
Q. About $16,000?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell us the name of the source, this person who sent you up to was it Pine Bluffs?
A. Pine Gap yes, Dr. Joseph Bissett.
Q. Is he also the person who sent you to South Vietnam?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any idea where he is?
A. No.
Q. Where was he when he sent you to Australia and South Vietnam?
A. New Caladonia.
Q. Which is where?
A. It's in the deep South Pacific, a little community called Lucafolia, New Caladonia -- a French colony.
Q. How did you meet him?
A. I was on the beach, and he had approached me. It was ironic, because it was like he was expecting somebody. But yet we struck up a conversation. He had asked a few questions -- are you travelling alone, et cetera, et cetera. I said yeah. And for the next maybe 2 days we had some discussions.
Q. You've told us that you were exclusively a tourist in the other countries that you listed.
A. Yes.
Q. Is there something else?
A. Yes, I was going to say in one country, but -- can we go off the record?
Q. If you have a question. I'd rather stay on the record.
A. I do have a question.
Q. Why don't we go off the record for a second. (Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Back on the record. While we were off the record Mr. Barnes told us that he, at one point, went into Red China from Hong Kong to see how far he could go. I think he said how far we could go.
A. Right.
Q. Who were you with at that time?
A. There were several groups of Europeans that I had met in Hong Kong and we had wanted to see how far we could get into Red China before we got stopped. Not knowing -- a bunch of kids, what were they going to do?
Q. Why do you view that as being different from the other places you went to simply as a tourist?
A. Because that was an illegal entry into a foreign country that, at that time, the United States was not friendly to.
Q. What were you doing as a tourist in the other countries?
A. All of them -- just seeing the sights; travelling around.
Q. How far did you get into Red China before somebody found you?
A. Well, the British stopped us. We snuck past them. We got in about probably 1/2 mile before the Chinese guards stopped us.
Q. What happened?
A. They took our pictures, and turned us over to the Brits.
Q. Was anyone arrested?
A. No -- I guess you could call it a detainee, because we had to take a boat across, and up to a little hill where there was a British guard place. And they turned us over to them.
Q. What was your main interest or purpose in going on this around-the-world trip? What made you decide to do it?
A. I'd been wanting to see Australia for some time, and just picked up one day and got a ticket and went.
Q. When you left, did you know that you were going to be gone for a whole year?
A. Well, I wasn't gone a whole year. I took a one-way ticket when I left the United States. So I had no idea how long I was going to be gone. That part's correct -- whether it be a week, a month, 8 months -- I had no idea how long I'd be gone. I didn't have any time schedule.
Q. Was there anything about your trip that year that you think formed the approach that you took to the next several years of your life in terms of what you did?
A. No, because I knew upon my immediate return I was going to join the United States Army.
Q. You knew that before you left?
A. Oh, yeah, I had already gone in and seen one recruiter. And I figured before I joined the Service I'd take a trip.
Q. Did you come back to the United States at any time while you were on your around-the-world trip?
A. No.
Q. You just went from one country to the next?
A. Exactly, yes.
Q. What, again, was the date you ended up joining the military?
A. I believe I actually took the swearing-in the 16th of July 1973. And it was delayed, maybe 5 weeks, something like that.
Q. In August of 1973?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was an enlistment rather than the draft?
A. Um-hum?
Q. You enlisted for a period of 3 years?
A. Whatever it was back then -- the standard enlistment -- 3 and 3, or 4 and 2 -- I'm not sure.
Q. Our information is that you enlisted for 3 years,
A. I know it was a 6 year total, counting reserve and whatever, non-active reserve, which was waived.
Q. So in other words, you enlisted for some period of years -- probably 3 -- as an active duty?
A. And 3 years inactive, yes.
Q. And it was the United States Army?
A. Yes, Army.
Q. Now let me ask you this -- I assume you had some training after you enlisted in the Army. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. What areas of training did you get?
A. The basic, at Fort Ord, Fort Gordon, then Fort Bragg, then on up to Fort Lewis.
Q. That was in the State of Washington?
A. Yes.
Q. So basic training was where?
A. Fort Ord, then on down to Fort Gordon, and then Fort Gordon to Fort Bragg and then back to Fort Gordon.
Q. Were those all basic training?
A. No, no -- not basic -- I believe one was AIT and one was Special S.
Q. What's AIT?
A. Advanced Individual Training, the next step after Basic -- whatever your MOS category is going to be.
Q. What kind of training did you get at Fort Bragg?
A. Fort-Bragg was counterinsurgency, recognitions of certain booby traps, guerilla warfare-type, you know, training, analyzing data, lot of body language stuff.
Q. Why were you -- I assume that was not training that everyone who enlists in the Army was receiving, is that right?
A. There was a lot of people in this group, But I have no idea.
Q. Do you know why you were chosen for that training?
A. You'd have to ask 525 MI Group.
Q. Do you know what the specific name of the course you took at Fort Bragg was?
A. It had something to do with the late president -- no, other than it had Kennedy's name in it.
Q. Was it at the JFK Special Warfare Center?
A. I don't know if it was at the center, but I know his name had been brought up as a course guideline -- there was a guy that had discussed, you know, the founding -- the history of this organization was because the late president had a vision to have special operations.
Q. What was the name of the instructor?
A. Captain Sinclair -- I think it was Bob Sinclair.
Q. Bob Sinclair?
A. I'm pretty sure that was it. The other captain -- my captain -- ended up shooting himself. And that was Captain Cherry. He was the one that was kind of coordinating who is going to what post. You'll see, if you get my record, you would see I had signed up to go to Neurenburg, Germany. At the last minute that whole thing got twisted and they wouldn't let me leave the States.
Q. How long a course was it at Fort Bragg?
A. I was up there, first time, 6 -- 6 1/2 weeks, and then brought back to Fort Gordon.
Q. Did you ever have any special military intelligence training during your stint in the Army?
A. No, I wouldn't say so, no.
Q. You seem to be --
A. Well, I would say, you know, it was military. I mean the 525 MI was constantly down there talking with me.
Q. What does that mean, 525 MI?
A. The military intelligence group 525.
Q. Well, did you ever have any, then, informal intelligence training while you were in the Army?
A. What you call -- I don't know what you would call informal, I mean, identification of things -- I mean you would have to define what you regard as intelligence, you know?
Q. How about drug training?
A. We had a lot of drug training, yeah, in interdiction, host nations, stuff like that.
Q. When?
A. I mean I don't see the relevancy of those to this committees investigation into --
Q. Where did you receive the training in drug interdiction?
A. That was down in Fort Gordon. We had people come out of a place called Glencoe, Georgia. And they were coming down -- and I think maybe one or two times we took a trip to Glencoe.
Q. Were you ever involved in military police intelligence?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. Fort Lewis, Washington.
Q. And tell us what your involvement in military police intelligence was.
A. Basically, there is a drug problem in a couple of areas, one which involved Army CID which I worked with for a while with them.
Q. Where did you work with Army CID?
A. Fort Lewis, Washington.
Q. Do you know a guy named Special Agent Albert Rowe?
A. Doesn't ring a bell.
Q. He's -- I should just tell you -- he's someone whom members of our committee have interviewed. He is special agent in CID at Fort Lewis. And it says that there is absolutely no record of your having anything to do with CID at that base.
A. Well, then you should take the document that they have here and the names, who I worked with at CID. You have it.
Q. Do you want to show us which one that is?
A. Do they even have any record of me being at Fort Lewis? (Pause.) Okay, CIA Special Agent Delbert Richardson is the guy I worked with.
Q. Delbert.
A. Richardson.
Q. And he was CID special agent at Fort Lewis?
A. Absolutely.
MR. GEKOSKI: He was the Assistant Chief of the Drug Team. We talked to him also.
THE WITNESS: Did he remember me?
MR. GEKOSKI: No.
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. For the record, what Mr, Barnes was referring to was this document number 22 in the appendix to his book, the name of which is Bohica -- B-o-h-i-c-a, And document number 22 purports to be a letter, M.D. Wilson, Assistant Chief of Police, Investigations Bureau, City of Seattle, Department of Police.
A. Were you able to talk to Seattle people about that?
A. Do they remember, or are they suddenly having false memories?
Q. Okay, what's -- let me ask you this, Mr. Barnes.
A. This doesn't cease to amaze me.
Q. Did you work on any drug operations when you were at Fort Lewis?
A. Absolutely -- lots of them.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. I worked on one in particular well, that one was a major one.
Q. Which one?
A. The one with the CID in Seattle. Narcotics Task Force, from LSD to mescaline, military people, casket retrieval, you name it. And --
Q. How many drug operations would you say you worked on out of the Fort Lewis Army base?
A. Fort Lewis ?-- 30, 40 major drug operations.
Q. And it's your testimony that this was as a member of the Fort Lewis drug team?
A. No, I was attached to the 296 MP Company, 89th MP Group, 14th MP Detachment.
Q. And just for the record, MP is --
A. Military police.
Q. Were you aware of the existence of the drug team?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And did you have anything to do with the drug team?
A. Constantly.
Q. And is it conceivable that you could have been, involved in 40 major drug operations and have the commander of, the drug team not know who you were?
A. Not at all. Not at all.
Q. All right, our committee has been told by Special Agent Albert Rowe, who was the Commander of the Drug Team, that you never worked with them. Can you give us any reason for that discrepancy?
A. Well, I would go to Seattle P.D. Narcotics, and Richardson and ask why -- or General McFadden. Ask General McFadden.
Q. Do you know anything about Special Agent Rowe that would lead you to believe why he might lie about you?
A. Maybe he didn't know me. I have no idea because I don't know him.
Q. But if he was the commander of the drug team, you already told us that it would be inconceivable that --
A. I don't know if he was a commander, I mean I'm just going by what you say he was. I have no idea. I worked strictly with one agent handler out of CID, and two guys out of Seattle PD Narcotics Intelligence.
Q. But it remains your testimony that there is no way that the true commander of the drug team at Fort Lewis would not have known who you were?
A. I don't know, I mean if they didn't tell him, I certainly didn't know him. So I don't have any idea. But if it was --
Q. Did you know anyone else who identified himself or herself As the commander of the drug team at Fort Lewis ?-- anyone other than Albert Rowe?
A. No, because I strictly worked with one CID man. He was my contact. That's the only head guy I would ever deal with.
Q. Who is that?
A. Richardson, the one that's in the letter. I mean there's -- it was a court case. The guy was convicted.
MR. KRAVITZ: Why don't we go off the record for a second?
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. KRAVITZ: Back on the record.
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Were you involved in a fire base undercover missions?
A. Yes, Yakima Fire Test Center in eastern Washington, at the ASA Center, 1974.
Q. Can you tell us what that was?
A. There was a drug serious drug problem allegation at the intelligence base, underground satellite communications network, I was flown there by helicopter by -- if I'm not mistaken, he's a general now -- Colonel Kanamine, he's a Japanese fellow. And yeah, there was a drug -- well, I shouldn't say was -- there -- yeah, there was a drug problem and it involved officers. And we eradicated it.
Q. Colonel Kanamine is someone whom you mention in your book. Can you tell us what your relationship with Colonel Kanamine was? And just for the record -- tell me if I'm wrong? -- but I think that's spelled K-a-n-a-m-i-n-e.
A. I think that's probably correct, He was a provost marshal that I would directly answer to.
Q. And what was the nature of your relationship with Colonel Kanamine?
A. I would give him briefings on what cases we were working, where they stood.
Q. What kinds of cases?
A. Smuggling cases.
Q. Drug smuggling cases?
A. Drug smuggling cases.
Q. And how often during your year -- how long were you at Fort Lewis?
A. Okay, about 12 months -- about 1 year, right on the nose.
Q. During your year at Fort Lewis; how often would you meet with Colonel Kanamine?
A. As I recall, back then I probably didn't meet with him but maybe ten times -- at the most.
Q. Okay.
A. CID did not want a whole lot going through to the old man. I mean it was just like -- it was not necessary that the PM knew everything. Because we were investigating, you know, some high-ranking people, higher than, obviously, Colonel Kanamine.
Q. Who were you investigating?
A. Well, we had looked into some activities with the 9th Infantry Division, CG; we looked at some activities with the CG of the 75th Ranger Battalion; there was a lot of things that we looked into.
Q. Did you receive any intelligence training or drug training at Fort Lewis?
A. Yeah, I would say it wasn't in specific, we went on a lot of things with CID surveillance activities -- mostly OJT, I mean working directly with them.
Q. Would you disagree with the statement that there is no formal intelligence and drug training at Fort Lewis at that time?
A. Would I disagree there was no -- I have no idea.
Q. Okay. You're not saying, then, that you had formal intelligence training, or formal drug training during your year at Fort Lewis?
A. No, I mean if we did I don't remember. I mean we went to a lot of different classes for brief subjects; I was going to college there. Mostly instructors were law enforcement people.
Q. Were you involved there with the military police intelligence unit?
A. Um-hum? MPI.
Q. Where were you involved with the MPI?
A. Fort Lewis and the Yakima Fire Test Center.
Q. What was your involvement with the Military Police Intelligence Unit?
A. That we were trying to get information on narcotics trafficking, coming from off-post/on-post; that some of the people -- it was alleged -- the ASA Center was deeply involved in narcotics; trying to find out who was dealing in what, other than this one subject that was convicted -- what the connection was.
Q. Are you actually sure that the military police intelligence unit exists?
A. Absolutely.
Q. As a specific division within Fort Lewis?
A. Well, I don't know the command of it, I mean the guys that I -- and one girl -- that we had worked with, you know, we had our own office, we had our own equipment, we could send and receive stuff; some of them wore civilian clothes, long hair -- some of them had long hair and beards, I mean there was -- and they were constantly coming off post.
Q. So this was an organization that had its own office?
A. Yes.
Q. It had its own stationery, for example?
A. No, none at all.
Q. Why not?
A. Well -- you're not going to put MPI on stationery. I mean the stationery we used was typical, you know whatever the PM's office had, and in notes, I mean we didn't need any stationery for anything.
Q. How many people were in the military police intelligence unit when you were dealing with them in 1973 - 1974?
A. I would say the guys and one girl I dealt with, there was about seven.
Q. Did you have any training in the area of corrections?
A. Um-huh -- Fort Gordon, Georgia -- 1 week's worth.
Q. Just 1 week's worth?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you ever work in the area of corrections?
A. I worked in the stockade at Fort Lewis for about 10 - 12 days.
Q. Doing what?
A. There was a homicide up there, the William Kaplan -- K-a-p-l-a-n -- case that I assisted in the investigation. And he was in custody, you know, as the trial was going on. And so my job was to, you know, keep an eye on him during my shift.
Q. Keep an eye -- you mean guard him?
A. Well, yeah, I guess it would be guard him. I was one of his main escorts to and from the court martial.
Q. Were you involved in investigations in the correctional facility?
A. There was one investigation, but I don't even remember -- it was on the periphery edge of something but that was it.
Q. And it's your testimony that you worked in the correctional area of Fort Lewis for only-about 10 days?
A. At the most, and that's pushing it -- at the most.
Q. You never spent any other time in addition to those10 days working as a correctional officer?
A. No, I was always out doing dope cases.
Q. When did you leave the Army?
A. December 19, 1974.
Q. What was the reason or reasons that you left the Army?
A. Well, there was a lot of recruiting going on for other agencies that I had been interested in.
Q. Which other agencies?
A. Well, DEA had been through; CIA had been through; MI had been through, And Captain Colbert had said, you know, there's a lot to offer, you know, with the war coming to a conclusion and a lot of troops coming back. We were getting these commendations. He says you can get an EDP if you so desire.
Q. What's an EDP?
A. Early drop program.
Q. And who is Captain Colbert?
A. He was my immediate CO.
Q. Do you know what his first name was?
A. Uh-huh. But he was the company CO.
Q. Okay, so you had been interested in these other agencies. Why did you end up leaving?
A. Well, the deal was that I would get out, go to school, and then eventually can go to work for one of these other agencies upon graduation from college.
Q. Okay, how did you arrange to get out early?
A. I didn't, they did.
Q. Who is they?
A. Whoever the CG was at the time.
Q. What's a CG?
A. The Commanding General.
Q. And how did --
A. All I had to do was sign one form and that was it.
Q. Well, how did it come about that -- that you were even approached about leaving -- leaving the Army?
A. Well, I had requested that -- you know -- one of the recruiters, I had told him yeah, I would be interested. And he says well you're going to have to get more callers than what you already have. And he says, you know, with a clean record and what you've done already -- he says, you know, you're quite good at this. We can arrange things, if so be it. And I said okay. And then I bet -- that was November -- I would say probably the very early part of December, the CO came down. And he says just sign right here, and you've got an EDP. And I signed right there. And the 19th had a plane ticket, and I was out.
Q. Which agency was this recruiter from who implied or --
A. Central Intelligence -- he represented himself as Central Intelligence.
Q. So in other words, in November of 1974, you met with --
A. I don't -- I previously met with several people.
Q. Okay, but in November of 1974, someone who claimed to be a representative for the CIA told you that he would arrange to have you released early from your Army requirements.
A. Right, he would take care of the paperwork.
Q. And the understanding was that you would go-to school for a certain period of time, and then become an employee of the Central Intelligence Agency.
A. No, the deal was that I would have to continue on in college using my VA benefits to pay for it; and that after completion of college, any number of one of agencies in the intelligence community -- whether it be DEA or the civilian sector -- you know, I would be in touch with them.
Q. Now did Colonel Kanamine have anything to do with your early release from the Army?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Doesn't your book refer to a meeting with him when he suggested that you should leave early? (Pause.) I'm just going to read from page 6 of the book Bohica. And just for the record, that is a book that you are the author of, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm now quoting from page 6 -- periodically, agency recruiters would come through and want to talk with 30 to 40 people at a time, probably hand-picked by commanding officers, about available positions within the agency. Just as an aside, when you're talking about the agency, you're talking about the Central Intelligence Agency?
A. Um-hum.
Q. Back to the text -- I told one recruiter named Hall on his second -- on the second stop in about 4 months, quote, if I ever get the opportunity I would be willing to be recruited for operations, end quote. He said he'd see what he could do. In 1974 I was sent to Yakima Fire Base, Army Security Agency Center in the eastern part of the State of Washington. For 2 months I worked on undercover assignments, then received orders to report back to Fort Lewis, immediately, to meet with Colonel Kanamine, commander of the military police intelligence unit.
I was transported to Fort Lewis by helicopter. Besides the pilot and the co-pilot, I was the only one aboard. At Fort Lewis, the Colonel informed me, quote, we have an offer for you, Scott. Get out of the military service now instead of waiting. Quote, but I still have a few months left on my hitch, end quote, I told him, curious about what he had in mind, Quote, when am I going to be doing, end quote. Quote, the war is over now, so we don't need so many troops. We have many wounded, and a lot more coming back to the States. So we'll be able to process you out early, end quote. At first I believed his explanation. 3 weeks later I was told, quote, here are your papers. You want to take this opportunity. My senior officers were very encouraging. That is a direct quote from your book?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. So is it true, then, that Colonel Kanamine was involved in your decision to leave the Army early?
A. I wouldn't say he was involved with my decision. I think that it was encouraging. He -- I wish I could remember the Major's name -- there was a major. But I think Captain Colbert was probably the most encouraging.
Q. Would you agree that your book states, or at least implies, that Colonel Kanamine encouraged you to leave the Army early?
A. I would say encouraged, but not the main one, no.
Q. Colonel Kanamine has been interviewed by this committee, and says, first of all, he doesn't remember you; and second of all, that he never told anyone or encouraged anyone to get out of the Army under the same circumstances or similar circumstances described in this book. Do you have any explanation for why he would say that?
A. Does he work for the Government? Is he a general?
Q. I don't know what he's doing now.
A. He's a general now.
Q. Is he a general now? Is that what your testimony is?
A. Um - Hum.
Q. Does that give you an explanation for why he would contradict you?
A. I think you said he doesn't remember.
Q. He said he doesn't remember you. He doesn't remember ever having anything to do with you.
A. So you'd have to ask between 1974 and 1991, 1992, how many people he's spoken to, who have spoken to him.
Q. I'm not asking you for how we can interrogate him.
A. I'd like to.
Q. I'm asking whether you have any explanation for why he would contradict you on these points.
A. I don't think he's contradicting. I think like you just said, he says he doesn't recall me.
Q. He says he doesn't remember you personally, even though you say you've talked to him ten times. And in your book you recount an episode where he encouraged you to leave the Army early to take a position in the agency. And he says he never told anybody to leave the Army early to take a position in the agency.
A. Well, I guess he's entitled to his opinion.
Q. Is it your testimony that he would be lying to us?
A. If he said that, he's lying, yes.
Q. When did you actually leave the military?
A. December 19, 1974.
Q. And it's your testimony that the reason for leaving, specifically, was what?
A. To go out and go to school, which I did.
(Brief recess)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. Were you ever described as a correctional specialist when you were in the Army?
A. Um-hum.
Q. What was your interpretation of what that meant?
A. That was one of my trainings, 95 Charlie MOS.
Q. What's an MOS?
A. Military Operating Specialty.
Q. So when did you get the title correctional specialist?
A. I assume as soon as I graduated from Fort Gordon.
Q. Did you ever have any other titles?
A. Not MOS, 95 Charlie, 95 Bravo, my back-up MOS.
Q. Were you ever a guard chief?
A. I think that's the MOS actual title, That's what they call it -- okay, civilian-related occupation, guard chief.
Q. What is it that you're reading off?
A. My DD-214.
Q. What's a DD-214?
A. It's the printed record of your military time and discharge, etcetera; name, address, rank -- all that kind of stuff.
MR. KRAVITZ: Why don't we get marked for identification. (The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 12 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 12, which is a xerox copy of document number 23 out of your book, Bohica. Do you recognize that?
A. Yup.
Q. What is that?
A. It's a xeroxed copy out of my DD-214 that the publisher has in my book.
Q. You had another document you were looking at just before I showed you Exhibit No. 12. What is the document that you were looking at?
A. A copy of my DD-214 without the deletions the publisher whited-out to put in the book.
MR. KRAVITZ: Let me have marked as Exhibit No. 13 this exhibit. (The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 13 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ;
Q. I'm going to show you what is marked as Exhibit No.13, which I can tell you is a facsimile copy of what we've been told is your actual form DD-214 discharge papers. Have you ever seen -- if you ignore the green ink that I put on there, have you ever seen that document before?
A. This document? No. This document is a fraud. Not a bad one, but it's a fraud.
Q. Let me ask it let's put this one away for a second. We'll talk about that in a minute. Let me ask you just to compare Exhibit No. 12, which is the xerox copy -- a xerox copy of the DD-214 from your book, and number 13, which we've been told is a facsimile copy of your true DD-214.
A. Well, first of all, let me state for the record under oath, that I have the one and only original copy of my DD-214.
Q. Where is that?
A. It's at home in a safe deposit box. And you're more than welcome to view it at any time.
Q. Is there any way you could submit that to the committee?
A. I'd rather have it done in person. Because it is the one and only hard-inked copy, signed by Lieutenant Stokkes and myself. This is amazing.
Q. Just so it's clear for the record, I have marked several items in green ink that appear to be different from the version in Exhibit No. 12 -- that is, there are items marked in green on Exhibit No. 13 that are different from Exhibit No. 12. Just starting with box no. 16, according to your book, your title is Spec 73-12-13.
A. That's correct.
Q. On Exhibit No. 13, it's correctional specialist as opposed to just specialist. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And, in fact -- well, let's mark another one.
MR. KRAVITZ: Let's mark this one number 14. (The document referred to was marked Exhibit No. 14 for identification.)
BY MR. KRAVITZ:
Q. What is number 14?
A. This is a copy I made the day before yesterday from my original copy of my DD-214.
Q. So your testimony is that Exhibit No, 14 is an accurate copy of the true, DD-214?
A. Absolutely. Q. You would agree that even on Exhibit No. 14 your title reads different than --
A. The Government's.
Q. Well, it reads different than the title that appeared in your book, Bohica.
A. So you'll know this for the record, whoever the people are at Daren Publishing Group, Dennis had whited-out certain things like my address, social security number. And when they called they said I could white out anything where anybody could cause me any hurt or damage. So whatever they've whited-out back there, before they put it in the book, was entirely up to them.
Q. So your testimony is that you had nothing to do with the decision to white out the correctional specialist on the DD-214?
A. None -- I sent them the DD-214, And whoever the girls were that did the putting of the stuff in the book was sort of worried about your social security number. I said you white out anything that somebody that could cause me harm would come back.
Q. Well, it's your book, isn't it?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you certainly, I assume, didn't want to be misleading the public about your military background in your writing your book.
A. Absolutely.
Q. Would you agree that when your title is listed as a correctional specialist it certainly makes you appear as if your military experience was more that of a guard than as an intelligence officer?
A. I wasn't an intelligence officer. So I answer your question no.
Q. Or involved in drug-running, all those kinds of investigations?
A. Not at all.
Q. You don't think there's any difference between being titled a correctional officer or being titled an investigator into drugs and guns and all that kind of stuff?
A. No, I mean here in Exhibit No. 14 is the actual copy -- whatever they whited-out was up to them. You'd have to talk to them.
Q. Well, did you ever question them as to why they took out the correctional -- the word correctional from your title?
A. No, you'd have to talk to them.
Q. You don't believe that the word correctional would endanger your safety, would it?
A. No, nothing wrong with that.
Q. But you just told us a couple of moments ago that you instructed them to take out anything that would endanger you.
A. Anything that they thought could cause me any problems.
Q. Did you review this document, as whited out before you okayed it for your book?
A. No.
Q. So it was out of your hands?
A. Yes, I trust them.
Q. If you had been the person editing this document, would you have left in the word correctional in block number 16?
A. I would have left in everything except my social security, my date of birth, and my home of record, I would have left everything as is.
Q. Going down to box number 27, remarks, even on your copy, Exhibit No, 14, it reads correctional specialist course. You'll agree that on Exhibit No. 12, the copy from your book, the remarks section is blank?
A. Right.
Q. Any explanation as to why that was deleted?
A. You'd have to ask them back in Ohio.
Q. You had nothing to do with that?
A. No.
Q. If it were up to you, would you have deleted the words correctional specialist course?
A. Not at all. That was part of my training.
Q. Would it have had anything to do with information that we received that that was the only training you got while you were in the military?
A. No.
Q. And that that information would be inconsistent with your portrayal of your background?
A. Not at all. Can I ask you a question on the record?
Q. Let me finish asking questions. I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 13 again. And on the bottom of the remarks section, you would agree that it reads failure to meet acceptable standards for continued military service.
A. This is what the Government's document 13?
Q. Yes. Have you ever seen it before?
A. Never. As a matter of fact, if you look at the type on all of this, this is obviously added on, after the fact, with a new typewriter at another date.
Q. The type will obviously speak for itself, And I think we all can agree for the record that the type on some of these items is different. I will grant you that. And I don't have any explanation for it. We received this, as you can tell, as a fax on February 28 of this year.
A. From?
Q. Where did this come from? From the Army Archives in St. Louis.
A. Well, if they're submitting this as an official document, they're doing this -- obviously fraud. What are you going to do about it, on the record?
Q. What are we going to do?
A. What's this committee going to do about this.
Q. We can talk about that off the record. In the deposition, we ask the questions. But I can tell you that one of the subjects that this committee is investigating is fraud of all types related to this issue. And --
A. Well, here you have an official document, Exhibit No. 13, that has been submitted by our Government, which is fraud. And I want to know what you're going to do about it.
Q. We can talk about that. I don't answer questions on the record in a deposition. But I would be happy to talk to you about that.
A. That's right, you work for the Government. I forgot.
Q. I already said that the type is different, for the record. In several of the areas that I have circled in green -- specifically box number 9(c), box number 10, and box number 27 -- the type face that appears on Exhibit No. 13 is different than the rest of the type face in the document.
A. The Government's is different.
Q. That's the Government's document, Some of the stuff, however, you will agree -- some of the information that is included on Exhibit No. 13, which is missing from Exhibit No. 12, is not missing from your own copy.
A. That's right. This is the copy, the original I took out of the safe deposit box -- not just 3 days ago.
Q. I think what would make sense for us to do would be --
A. Which, if you want to ask, you can call him Ken Hall at the Vietnam Veterans Center in Prescott, Arizona, took the original and made these copies for me -- the actual original.
Q. Who is he again?
A. He's in charge of the Vietnam Veterans Center in Prescott.
Q. Okay, and he made this copy from the original?
A. From the original.
Q. In your safe deposit box?
A. That is correct.
Q. What is your understanding as to what they should have in St. Louis? Would they have another --
A. Unequivocally, this is obviously a cover-up, continuing cover-up. And the Government is portraying fraud. They're trying to say things, obviously, that aren't true, to attempt to damage my credibility -- which is comical, at best.
Q. I think we're about to break for lunch, Let me just -- before we go off the record -- tell you -- because I really don't want you to get the wrong impression --
A. I've already gotten the wrong impression. I'm not going to trust this committee any further.
Q. Well, let me just tell you --
A. You've shown your colors.
C O N T I N U E D
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Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798: "In questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
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