[exlrrp]

Well, there' a whole lot to answer here and I'm not going to get every issue covered.
I look at the Civil War in 2 ways--as an American (and I have 5 ancestors that fought in the Civil war, 3 for the Confederacy) and as a historian. Its definitely part of all our histories and the repercussions of it are still echoing. As a historian (BA Chico State '86) I feel compelled to keep the facts straight, or as straight as I can--there's plenty of conflicting spin but theres little doubt about the facts.
One of th most intersting things about talking to Southern people is that you never hear them say" Oh wow, we really blew it, trying to secede from the union was an AWFUL mistake and so was slavery and segregation. OOPS! HA HA Sorry about all the lives it cost the rest of the country to make us Americans again. heheheh Our bad? just having a bad hair decade Ah spose" (I mean WHITE southern people) No, its always: ?The Yankees came down and kicked our asses for no reason we can figure out?. The Japanese say about the same:?One day, for no reason we can discern, the Americans dropped nuclear bombs on us.? Its like they suspended the rules of Cause And Effect in your area too? Well, I hope other people down there have learned the lessons of history a little better? like: fck with the bull and you get the horn. Start shooting at the American Flag and American soldiers and we?ll do our best to blow you out of the water. (signed THE REST OF AMERICA!)
One of the things you DO hear Southerners always say is "It was just as bad in othr places" (it wasn?t?that?s why there was a great black migration out of the South) But you see--that doesn?t make the mistreatment of other races all right!!!! It does not excuse it!!! It means there is a lot of it going on all over which I would be the last to deny and am often the first to point out. It Sure happens in California. What that means is we--as good Americans-- should fight it when we run into it not allow it to continue because its happening in other places. Nor should we exalt the days when those conditions reigned supreme.
(Hint to the South: segregation certainly existed at least partially nationwide but far far worse in the states with strict apartheid segregation so best not to point fingers elsewhere. Re Berkeley: I grew up in Berkeley and that town has never had slavery or segregation, showing much more regard for American values and principles than some others we need not name here. I might also point out that as a GI in the 60s I was treated a LOT better in the SF Bay Area than in the South and I mean a WHOLE lot better.)

What brought the Civil War on was the secession of the states and their refusal to return to th union and then they started the shooting war. And the ensuing devastation that was wreaked on the south was a direct result of that, cause and effect, like the bull and the horn thing.. And you want to wave the flag of that cause??suits me, except when you wave it next to the American flag or in any way involve it with a state I?m paying taxes in. THEN there?s a train wreck. I don?t want my tax dollars supporting it in any way, it stands for completely UnAmerican ideals or perhaps all too regrettably American ideas It?s a flag of a cause that was hostile to the United states and only stopped being so by force.

?Many an Immigrant to our great country are proud of their heritage and fly their ancestors or their flag they were born under before immigratting to the US.But., no one protest their right to fly the flag of their ancestors.?
Allow me to point out that Japanese Americans and german Americans don't fly the Rising Sun and Swastika, the flags of both Japan and Germany are completely different than they were when we were fighting them. But not some state flags

I guess i need to start from my basic ground of being?I think that the causes embodied by the Stars and Bars: Secession, Slavery (and later Segregation) were THE worst causes of American political history, hands down, and that in embracing them (or failing to let them go), the South brought ruin to themselves and great damage to the rest of the country?the South isn?t the only part of th US with Civil War monuments. I think the leaders of the South at that time doomed a whole generation of their best young men and brought incalculable damage to their states and their country over a political principle defending an inhuman, failing economic system. These people never paid th full price for their treason, not even Davis. If I'd been Sherman, I might have hung a few more of them to teach them the folly of making war on the United States of America but hey!! Ive got PTSD. Youre reading the words of someone who thinks Sherman did a pretty good job.
As this judgement is made having almost 140 years of history to look back on, I?ll excuse the common soldier from blame?he was duped and a victim of circumstance and I know what that means, I?m a Vietnam combat vet. I would gladly stand in front of my Confederate ancestors and say: ? You dumbasses! What were you thinking??? Rebelling against th United States and firing on the American Army?? What made you think that was going to turn out good? And look what you got for it, too.? Is that disparaging enough? They fought for The Worst Political Cause of the 19th Century. If our Union Vet ancestors allowed them back into the fold, that was great generosity. But I was a Veteran of another Lost Cause so I can see how it goes.

Its amazing to see someone write that Lincoln acted without Congressional Action. The timing of the secession and the later attack on Ft Sumter is crucial to understand the situation because it was cravenly timed to catch the new government at its most vulnerable time, brand new, off guard, flatfooted, you name it. so complaints about the way Lincoln handled this may unfortunately fall on somewhat deaf ears (I'm a disabled vet too, 70%) Lincoln started with his back to the wall, as disadvantaged as possible thanks to the people who delighted in ripping America apart.
A CERTAIN STATE (don't want to offend anyone here) upon hearing that Abraham Lincoln had been elected President OF THE UNITED STATES convened in their statehouse and declared themselves to have seceded. The timing of this was crucial--LINCOLN HADNT EVEN BEEN INAUGURATED YET nor would be for 4 months. And the outgoing Buchanan, a southern sympathiser who still had 4 months to go when THAT CERTAIN STATE seceded, was allowing Davis, Toombs and other outgoing southerners in the government to take what they wanted and wreck what they left. So for someone to say Lincoln acted without Congressional authorisation is but laughably obvious, a non sequiter, complete revisionist spin. Of Course he didn?t--the secession was cravenly timed to stab America in the back at its most vulnerable time, when Congress was out of session, a more Southern Friendly prsident still presided and the new president hadn't even assumed office yet, hadn't even named his cabinet yet. Lincoln was forced to act in the worst crisis in our history almost entirely on his own from Day One, OJT all the way although the crisis occurred in the Buchann administration--how could Lincoln do ANYTHING??. It made it extremely difficult to uphold his job of president of the United States?that?s why the rebels did it the way they did and that, I think is when they upped it from Ill Advised Career Move to Out And Out Treason?don?t you?. Imagine GWB if 911 had happened on his inauguration day with Congress out of session--but he would have modern communications. . It took weeks?months in some cases to get messages across America and back--. Lincoln didn?t have those advantages and was scrambling to put together what government he could with who was left, many of whom he could not be sure of and many who did fail him The legislators of THAT CERTAIN STATE knew that this was absolutely the weakest time for THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES and timed their move to take advantage of that plus the fact that southern sympathisers in the government and army were deserting and turning over arms and supplies to the states at a great rate. For that reason, I'd have hung every one of the traitorous sons of bitches who signed those papers right on the burned statehouse steps if I'd have been Sherman,and I doubt if there would have been 2 sticks standing straight up in that town when I left but, you know, th PTSD thing again. That was the worst stab in the back America ever got.Nobody who applauds that decision could ever look down on Jane Fonda, that?s for sure and its result brought ruin to that state and its neighbors. Treason is treason and it is definitely decided by those who won. Of which, again, there is no doubt.
I mean what did they seriously expect The President Of The United States was going to do, even though they hobbled him as much as they could the day they stopped being Americans And started being Confederates? The President of The United States I pay taxes to better do something about that and I mean soonest. !! Lincoln HAD to do something more than dither or he would have gone down as America?s biggest weenie, no faces on Mt Rushmore for THAT kind of wussying!!

And mark the sequel:
These southern leaders not only made the immense mistake of seceding from the union without adequately gauging northern response but then kicked off th shooting war by firing on the American Flag and Garrison of Fort Sumter which did more to galvanise the union to unite than anything else might have. And Davis knew what he was doing when he ordered it done:
(from The Civil war by Shelby Foote--Ft Sumter to Perryville, Page47)
[The Us Government had sent them a message saying Ft Sumter would be resupplied]
?.."Lincoln had maneuvered them into the position of either backing down on their threats or else to fire the first shot of the war. What was worse, in the eyes of the world, that first shot was fired for the immediate purpose of keeping food from hungry men.
Davis assembled his cabinet and laid the message before them. Their reactions were varied. Robert Toombs, the fire eater was disturbed and said so. 'The firing on that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has seen and I do not feel competent to advise you.? He paced the room, head lowered, hands clasped beneath his coattails. ?Mr President, at this time it is suicide, murder and you will lose us every friend in the North. You will wantonly strike a hornets nest which extends from mountain to ocean. Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal.?
Davis reasoned otherwise and made his decision accordingly?.?
[spelling, punctuation mistakes are mine]

Ol Bob Toombs hit the nail right on th head, I could not agree with him more, especially in the light of history. I think this quote more than proves who started the shooting and that they knew or guessed the possible consequences when they did it. It was this act that brought the fire and brimstone that eventually came back to haunt them and to hear anyone claiming it was the aggression of someone else is but to bring a sneering curl of the historical lip. So re: the War of Northern Aggression: go pee on old Jeff Davis?s grave, youre sure not going to get any break from me on any of this Northern Aggression doodlysquat. Ive said it before and I?ll say it again-blablabla the bull and blablabla the horn. Fire on the American Flag and American Army and you?ll get whats coming to you (signed: THE REST OF AMERICA)?why did the South think it was going to be different?
This decision was in no way a defensive act, it was firing on the American Flag in violent rebellion which would surely qualify as treason by anybody?s standards and they knew it when they did it!! Please!! Don?t come crying to me about what th Union Army did and what Sherman said without addressing this. Anything that had to be done to bring the states back into the union had to be done?The US does not negotiate at the barel of a gun?or do you think it should??
Think about it first as an American--then as a Confederate. Then ask yourself:"Why am I thinking of this other than as an American?"
Theres a huge difference in the meaning of the rebel flag icon here, it means different things to different people.. To some people its cool (worldwide!!) To most everybody outside your region it means Secesion, Slavery and Segregation?and dead US soldiers. hope we can safely agree that these were causes and ideas that were ultimately proven bad for the South more than anyone? And these concepts should be discarded? By force if necessary?? And can we further agree that it was a UNITED America coming out of the Civil War that became a great country, led in part by former Rebel soldiers, and that the Confederate vision of a divided America HAD to go? In the light of history, don?t you REALLY think it worked out best?
So that brings us to the point of the rebel flag--it is the flag of people who thought it was great to tear the country apart and mow down hundreds of thousands of American soldiers in doing so, no doubt about it. The cost of these lives is beyond measure but they thought it was necessary and so do I. Doesn?t flying the rebel flag dishonor the memories of the men who put it to rest, who then, according to you, even honored the rebels with inclusion in their ranks? Seems like a totally bad idea to me to fly this flag, especially if it offends as many as XX% or so of the people in yr state who might be ?clined to let you know it in unsubtle ways. But there it is: If you want to fly it, its your business and I would say so if you lived next door--as I would if you flew the Rising Sun or Swastika although I?d definitely be thinking its time to drag up anchor and move on..


Have to run, part 2 coming soon

Jmes