Navigation, coordination with air,artillery

Hi all,
I heard that all navigation during the conflict was based on maps and
corresponding grid reference codes (unlike the gps i'm sure folks use
nowadays). With this in mind, sometimes, given the terrain i'm guessing it
must have been extremely hard for a line unit to ascertain its exact
location? So, when calling in air or artillery support were grid codes again
the primary use for pinpointing units/targets?
Given a grid reference code how would an artillery team then go and
calculate range, trajectory etc? Similiary for air support how would pilots
know exactly where to place ordnance?

Any replies appreciated,

Nathan

>Similiary for air support how would pilots
>know exactly where to place ordnance?

Nathan,

Visual. The guys on the ground popped smoke to locate their position. We also
employed an FAC (Forward Air Controller) who could spot our location and fire
WP rockets to mark friendly/enemy positions for the fighters (jets).

The Arty guys will be along shortly.

Best Regards

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the reply. What about if the area was triple canopy jungle
and identifying troops or smoke was not an option? Was an alternate method
of establishing location available?

Thanks again,

Nathan

"GrgLnsctt" wrote in message
news:20030917130631.16681.00001363@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
> >Similiary for air support how would pilots
> >know exactly where to place ordnance?
>
> Nathan,
>
> Visual. The guys on the ground popped smoke to locate their position. We
also
> employed an FAC (Forward Air Controller) who could spot our location and
fire
> WP rockets to mark friendly/enemy positions for the fighters (jets).
>
> The Arty guys will be along shortly.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Greg

>What about if the area was triple canopy jungle
>and identifying troops or smoke was not an option? Was an alternate method
>of establishing location available?
>

Nathan,

My unit rarely operated in triple canopy and the few times we were under it did
not engage the enemy. We had little rocket flares that might have worked or
maybe shooting tracer rounds through the canopy. Another tried and true method
was drop a bomb or shoot an Arty round and we'd locate from there. The ossifers
got real nervous when they couldn't hear the explosion. - LMAO

Best Regards

Greg

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 1801 +0100, "NJ"
wrote:

>Hi Greg,
> Thanks for the reply. What about if the area was triple canopy jungle
>and identifying troops or smoke was not an option? Was an alternate method
>of establishing location available?

Chop trees, pop smoke, cross fingers. It usually didn't work, which
is why many, many of us are still bitter after all these years.

"But now is the time for the younger men to lock in rough encounters,
time for me to yield to the pains of old age. But there was a day I
shone among the champions."

Homer, The Illiad, 23.715-719 (800 BC). King Nestor of Pylos.

>Subject: Navigation, coordination with air,artillery
>From: "NJ" gurunaif@blueyonder.co.uk
>Date: 9/17/2003 11:40 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id:
>
>Hi all,
>I heard that all navigation during the conflict was based on maps and
>corresponding grid reference codes (unlike the gps i'm sure folks use
>nowadays). With this in mind, sometimes, given the terrain i'm
>guessing it must have been extremely hard for a line unit to ascertain
>its exact location?

Tremendous understatement and lord I'd have loved to have one of those GPS back
then.

>So, when calling in air or artillery support were grid codes again
>the primary use for pinpointing units/targets?

Far as I know it was the only system we had. It was all we used anyway.

>Given a grid reference code how would an artillery team then go and
>calculate range, trajectory etc?

We have several resident redlegs in the group so hopefully they will see your
request. It is far beyond me.

>Similiary for air support how would pilots know exactly where to place
>ordnance?

Greg mentions the FAC (Forward Air Controller I think) that could mark the
target for the jets. Helicopter gunship support you'd pop smoke on the ground
and direct them from there if it was necessary.

Bill Clarke


>Any replies appreciated,
>
>Nathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"NJ" wrote in message
news:e80ab.9171$z11.8349@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Hi all,
> I heard that all navigation during the conflict was based on maps and
> corresponding grid reference codes (unlike the gps i'm sure folks use
> nowadays). With this in mind, sometimes, given the terrain i'm guessing it
> must have been extremely hard for a line unit to ascertain its exact
> location? So, when calling in air or artillery support were grid codes
again
> the primary use for pinpointing units/targets?
> Given a grid reference code how would an artillery team then go and
> calculate range, trajectory etc? Similiary for air support how would
pilots
> know exactly where to place ordnance?
>
> Any replies appreciated,
>
> Nathan
>
Grids were the only way to call in indirect artillery fire. The fire
direction center (FDC) has a chart table covered with a grid on white paper
or matt plastic. The grid is numbered just as the map the FO (foward
observer) or others in the field are using. The FDC also has a map of the
area for determining the altitude of the target, and if high angle fire is
needed. We used a round chart table with the battery center at the center of
the table. It's marked by a pin. When a fire mission is received the given
grid is plotted on the chart,marked with a pin. A range/deflection
protractor ( a long ruler with a segment of graduated arc) gives range and
deflection (deviation from an ordinal). This is the basic firing data. From
this the appropriate shell, fuze, fuze time if needed, powder charge and
deflection are sent to the guns. The final command is that of elevation or
quadrant This is the also the command to load the gun and make ready to
fire. When all is ready, the FO is notified and he gives the order to fire.
The order to fire is relayed by the FDC to the guns. The FDC replies to the
FO "shot" and then 5 seconds before impact "splash".

This is a very simplified description of the target acquisition process. I
hope it answers your questions.

Chas Hurst
C Battery, 7/15th Artillery

We operated in triple canopy once in a while.

Artillery airbursts were called in to help determine a position, if for
instance a patrol got lost.

In the open country like rice paddies we used the lensatic compass and would
shoot azimuths to reference points like mountains. Usually we could see two
of the OPs in our AO and our forward firebase. When we set up for the night
the mortar platoon would confer with the arty FO and compare positions on
the map- before we registered DTs for that night. My best recollection is
that if there were any doubts, an airburst was called in. My first night
out, the airburst was short and its cannister landed in our mortar gunpit.
It went whoomp, whoomp, whoomp and those of us who were sitting around the
pit unassed that spot just as the cannister impacted. It nearly hit the
spread chain on the 81mm.

I'd add that our unit did hump an 81mm mortar in our AO. When I was an FNG,
I carried the baseplate. There were times when we gladly loaded it onto the
morning bird and the evening bird would bring it back out to us after we did
our day's humping.

Tom Dier
Americal Division 1970


"NJ" wrote in message
news:lF0ab.9543$z11.3511@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Hi Greg,
> Thanks for the reply. What about if the area was triple canopy jungle
> and identifying troops or smoke was not an option? Was an alternate method
> of establishing location available?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Nathan
>
> "GrgLnsctt" wrote in message
> news:20030917130631.16681.00001363@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
> > >Similiary for air support how would pilots
> > >know exactly where to place ordnance?
> >
> > Nathan,
> >
> > Visual. The guys on the ground popped smoke to locate their position. We
> also
> > employed an FAC (Forward Air Controller) who could spot our location and
> fire
> > WP rockets to mark friendly/enemy positions for the fighters (jets).
> >
> > The Arty guys will be along shortly.
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Greg
>
>




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

And the god-dam thing always landed on "us"

When all is ready, the FO is notified and he gives the order to fire.
>The order to fire is relayed by the FDC to the guns. The FDC replies to the
>FO "shot" and then 5 seconds before impact "splash".
>
>This is a very simplified description of the target acquisition process. I
>hope it answers your questions.
>
>Chas Hurst
>C Battery, 7/15th Artillery
>

wrote in message
news:ssuhmvkg19hv0edfr6pket4gqii9046epk@4ax.com...
> And the god-dam thing always landed on "us"
>
> When all is ready, the FO is notified and he gives the order to fire.
> >The order to fire is relayed by the FDC to the guns. The FDC replies to
the
> >FO "shot" and then 5 seconds before impact "splash".
> >
> >This is a very simplified description of the target acquisition process.
I
> >hope it answers your questions.
> >
> >Chas Hurst
> >C Battery, 7/15th Artillery
> >

We never fired on an "us". Intentionally or otherwise.