Military experience is now so good that distortion is necessary
HOGUE: Just a little different today on the format. We’re more than happy to entertain the three Republican candidates for U.S. Senate on the GOP side of the aisle here on 1380 KTKZ. Welcoming the state. We’ve got many people listening via the website at KTKZ.com and our thanks off the top here to our sponsors, which have cleared the way for the entire hour. We will have three short breaks in this hour during this debate, and they will be very, very short. Right around 15 minutes after the hour, thirty minutes after the hour, forty five minutes after the hour. The debate does have some rules today, and they’re rather simple, just to give us some structure and some format to get the answers out so you can hear the candidates here. Real simple, I will ask a question, an initial question in each round to one of the candidates, and then they will have two minutes to respond and I will keep track of the time right here. And then after that, we will go to each opponent candidate in this race and give them each a minute (60 seconds) to respond in rebuttal. After that, it is talk radio, so after that fact, we’re going to have a crossfire free for all and I referee it, so it will be kind of a fight for position and voice and we’ll allow the crossfire to continue. Once we get to the format after the opening statements. With that, we’ll also have opening statements today, sixty seconds each to begin, and closing statements, sixty seconds each to begin. We’ll do that momentarily. Let’s do this, let’s introduce the three candidates in this GOP senatorial debate. Let’s start with the, well, the most obvious on the phone line, more than happy to have former CEO of HP, and running as a Republican in this race, would you please welcome Ms. Carly Fiorina. Carly, it’s good to have you today.
FIORINA: It’s great to be with you, Eric. Thanks for having me. Hello everyone.
HOGUE: And there you guys go. Hello and across the table here is sitting with us in studio, former congressman, Republican himself, Representative Tom Campbell. Tom, it’s good to see you.
CAMPBELL: Thanks, Eric. And I want to thank you and your station for holding this opportunity.
HOGUE: And to my right, Assembly Member Chuck Devore. Republican here in state, state lawmaker and also Republican running for U.S. Senate. Chuck, good to see you.
DEVORE: Great to see you as well, Eric.
HOGUE: Let’s do this. Once again, two minutes, one and then one, crosstalk thereafter. Let’s begin with the opening statements, each getting 60 seconds, and, with that, we had a random drawing and Mr. Tom Campbell, you’ll get us rolling here with the opening comments.
CAMPBELL: Well, thank you Eric. I called for this debate today so that both of my opponents can bring up absolutely any charge that they want. Air it, and let me respond to it. But there’s no place for calling me an anti-Semite, and then denying it. That whispering campaign, that silent slander stops today. Carly Fiorina’s lead campaign consultant was caught doing it. Now one of two things is true. Either her campaign consultant slandered me by calling me an anti-Semite, and then when it came out, slandered Bruce McPherson, to whom she said those hateful words. Or Bruce McPherson, our state’s former Secretary of State, a man of impeccable credibility and reputation for honesty, is really an irresponsible person who makes up outlandish charges. Well I know which of those two possibilities is overwhelmingly more likely, Ms. Fiorina, and so do the voters. Your campaign attacks on me have already been labeled by the San Jose Mercury News an unfair, misleading, ridiculous, and that you are, quote, likely to play fast and loose with facts, unquote. Today, that stops.
HOGUE: 60 seconds there afforded to Tom Campbell, next in the opening statements on the phone miss Carly Fiorina, Carly go right ahead.
FIORINA: Good afternoon. I believe our state and our nation are at a pivotal moment. We have arrived ant what Ronald Reagan once called a time for choosing. I’ve lived the American dream, only in America could someone like me, a woman, who started as a medieval history major, a law school drop-out and a full time receptionist rise to become a CEO of one of the largest companies in the world and have the privilege to run for the US Senate. But our American dream is perishable. I believe bigger and bigger government higher and higher taxes and thicker and thicker regulation are killing the American dream. I see it happening all over the state and if Barbara Boxer remains in office for another 6 years it will only get worse. I’m the only candidate in this race who has met a payroll or created jobs. And I will fight for every job. I am the only candidate in this race who has ever actually balanced a budget and cut spending in the real world and I will fight to cut government spending. I believe we must stop sending more of our money to Washington because they have amply demonstrated that they do not spend our money wisely or well. I am the only candidate in this primary who can beat Barbara Boxer. If we want to change Washington we have to change the people we send to Washington.
HOGUE: Carly, that is your time, appreciate that. And thirdly here, Assembly member Chuck DeVore. Chuck?
DEVORE: My name is Chuck DeVore, I’m a CA state Assemblyman and a LT. COL. In the US Army Reserve. I’m running for the US Senate for the same reason I got involved in politics and policy 20 years ago when I was RR’s youngest appointee in the Dept of Def. the principles set forth by our founding fathers aren’t antiquated, and they don’t need modification. They do need men and women who will defend them. This debate is on natl. security and terrorism. Here I have the strongest record of accomplishment of any of the senate candidates for either party. I lived and studied in the Middle East at the University of Cairo Egypt. I war-gamed the plan that RR used to destroy the Iranian Navy in 1988. I’ve traveled the Afghan frontier and the tribal areas of Pakistan with the late Charlie Wilson. And I played a significant role in securing US support for Israel’s aero anti-tactical ballistic missile system. And of course I’m proud to have served in the US Army since 1983. I have nothing to explain or apologize for in my past. I’ve served my nation and I will continue to do so as your US Senator.
HOGUE: Opening comments there once again Tom Campbell, Chuck DeVore, Carly Fiorina. We start the format here once again a question toward one of the candidates, 2 minutes to respond, one minute each in rebuttal, and then cross talk. With that, Congressman Tom Campbell, we start with you because much of this debate surrounds the criticism targeted toward you. Reports are revealed that you have had concerning relationships with 4 individuals with jihadists and jihadist views. One of them Sammy al Arian who is a convicted terrorist and know sympathizer. These charges have been leveled by both of your opponents in this US Senate race. They are concerning because it’s a senatorial campaign. Mr. Campbell do you care to respond to these accusations?
CAMPBELL: I absolutely do. And it’s important that we get the facts out b/c there has been too much whispering. Let me start with the fundamental commitment to the US relationship with the state of Israel. I’ve always supported a strong military relationship indeed when Sadam Hussein was shooting scud missiles into Israel. I flew to Israel, I was a member of the Congress. I stayed in the King David hotel. I met with Israeli officials. I flew on El Al. Scud missiles hit the day I arrived. In congress unlike senator Boxer, she was a congresswoman then, I voted to go to war when Sadam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the threat that he posed to the US and Israel was obvious to me. And I have never flinched from that strong support. When I was running for the senate of the US in 2000 Sammy Al Arian helped me. I note that he also helped George W. Bush who was running for President. It was part of an outreach of the GOP was making to try and bring in more Muslim Americans to find support within the GOP. Years later he was convicted of conspiracy to assist terrorist organization. I certainly wish that I had done a better job of finding out who he was at the time. I don not think that I deserve the kind of attack however that has been launched that somehow I am jihadist. That is absurd. There is nothing in my record that suggests that I support terrorism. That individual who was eventually convicted, eventually took a guilty plea. There is one other point to be raised and that is that he was a professor and he was terminated from his position at the University of South Florida when this evidence came out. At that time I was asked by another professor to say please don’t fire him simply because of his views. The American Association of University Professors investigated this and they found a critical judgment against the USF, for having taken the action that it did simply on the basis of him having expressed his views. That’s the truth, let’s air it, and let’s get it over with.
HOGUE: Thank you Tom Campbell, with that let’s turn to Carly Fiorina on the phone line. Carly, one minute to respond in rebuttal to Mr. Tom Campbell.
FIORINA: Well first, unlike Tom Campbell George W. Bush gave back the campaign contribution. Tom Campbell refused to do so. Also the views of the Professor that he mentioned were well known and aired on Bill O'Reilly prior to his being fired. In 1997 and in 1999 Tom you offered amendments while you were a Congressman that cut aid to Israel in 1999 you voted to cut aid to Israel. In 1990 you were one of only 34 congressman who voted against Jerusalem being the undivided capital of Israel. You’ve called radical Israel act of this Allison Weir intelligent and careful, you have said her work was powerful and well documented. Then you later said you never were agreed with her. I don’t think you can have it both ways Tom. And by the way do you still think President Clinton is too pro Israel as you once said? I do not believe you are an anti Semite. Marty Wilson tells me he never made that comment, but I do believe this – Israel is our most important ally in the Middle East, they have made great sacrifices for peace there faced with an existential threat, and CA voters need to know our views.
HOGUE: Alright Carly Fiorina, Chuck DeVore 60 seconds in rebuttal
DEVORE: Well, what concerns me about this line of questioning and this issue is that first of all we’re seeing a pattern from Carly Fiorina’s campaign where she makes what I view to be unsubstantiated charges, in this case having her campaign manager, Arnold Schwarzenegger’s former bag man, making the charge of anti Semitism against congressman Tom Campbell and that tends to short circuit legitimate debate. Now we called Tom Campbell a friend to our enemies, and then we documented, chapter and verse, all the different people that he is associated with. Obviously, Carly Fiorina just went down the list. It isn’t just about Sammy Al Arian, it isn’t just about checks and whether or not they were returned or whether or not he voted to cut aid to Israel. Its things like his attending the opening of the Council on American Islamic Relations national HQ in 2000. His comment about America’s very soul being in the balance and quoting the Prophet Mohammed when it came to the issue of the Palestinian state. What we have is a consistent pattern where, and by the way, this is a perfectly legitimate pattern. But now he’s been backing away for it and professing his support for American-Israeli relations.
HOGUE: Alright, let’s do this and here is the beauty of talk radio, there’s the formatics of debate, let’s hash this out in cross talk. And Tom I’ll let you go first since you’re the subject of the accusations and it’s the forum here.
DEVORE: Well, what disturbs me again about this is that you can’t un-ring the bell. I’ve been critical of Congressman Campbell’s positions on the Middle East and I’ve backed it up with footnoted comments, with a critique. Carly Fiorina’s campaign manager I believe called Tom Campbell an anti Semite. End of story, I know Bruce McPherson, he is an honorable man. He wouldn’t make something like this up and this by the way is very similar of what I’ve seen in my own campaign where one of Carly Fiorina’s own directors of her campaign sent out an email a few days ago saying that I hadn’t passed one bit of legislation with my name on it. Not one. And then she attacked my wife. This sort of thing of course Carly Fiorina is going to deny it but her campaign people have been running a campaign of whispers against both Tom Campbell and myself. And I think the difference is what the people of the state of CA want is substantive debate. Let’s discuss the issues and not you surrogates to say things and then deny them.
FIORINA: You know Chuck for someone who has spent virtually all your time in this campaign misrepresenting me, you’re charges are simply ridiculous. I have been talking about substance this entire campaign. It was you after all who yesterday referred to a thesis that I wrote in 1989 while I was at MIT, that’s 159 pages, so please I think you have shown yourself to be someone who misrepresents continuously and constantly.
DEVORE: Carly Fiorina, what I get a kick out of is if you continue to say I misrepresent you but you never have specifics. You always say that if you Google Carly Fiorina and misrepresent you’re going to get thousands of entries and it just isn’t about me. This is a common thread that you have engaged throughout your career. Use specifics when we talked about your Master’s thesis, where you called for a federal intervention of education…
FIORINA: Well, I’ll tell you what Chuck, I’ve posted that Master’s thesis up on my website, any listener who wants to go read 159 pgs of my MIT Master’s thesis can see exactly what I said. And what I called for was accountability and excellence in education, an increase involvement of both parents and businesses in education. So all of our listeners go read the whole thesis and you can make up your own mind not have Chuck DeVore make it up for you
DEVORE: And you said the US Constitution was a roadblock to that.
HOGUE: Let’s do this; let’s take a short pause.
COMMERICAL
HOGUE: Once again Carly Fiorina on the phone line, Chuck DeVore, Tom Campbell. In this free flow of debate, the GOP senate senatorial debate here in CA you can listen to it online. Exclusively here on 1380ktkz. Let’s get back to the accusations Tom, first off, Anti-Israel towards you.
CAMPBELL: The subject that came up that finally allows us to get into some substance is the threat from Iran. George Shultz, the Secretary of state to President Ronald Reagan recently said that I was an "unwavering friend of Israel", particularly in the face of this threat from Iran. So perhaps, for some part of today let’s talk bout the substance the threat that Israel and the U.S. faces from nuclear-armed Iran is huge. The responsibility of the U.S. it seems to me, is to support Israel if, Israel needs to do to Iran what it did relative to Syria in September 2008 and relative to Iraq in 1981. And that is to use military force to take the potential of nuclear tipped weapons away from Iran. Our view as an ally of Israel should be made clear to the world that if Israel needs to take that step, we stand with Israel.
HOGUE: Alright, so let’s clear up the free-for-all surrounding anti-Israel and Tom Campbell. Carly, any comments here.
FIORINA: Well, I stand by my concern. I think Tom Campbell’s voting record is quite clear and I think he is trying to have it both ways. I certainly agree that we need to be extremely concerned about Iran and I believe that we have lost a year to President Obama’s failed engagement policy. The time has come for us to impose crippling sanctions unilaterally if necessary. We should be cutting off all access for Iran’s leaders and for the Iran Revolutionary guard core to financial institutions to credit, to travel. We should be limiting Iran’s imports for fined petroleum. And we should also stand very firmly with the brave men and women in Iran who are challenging the repressive Government and take advantage of the fact that there is a historic split in the theocracy in Iran – the first time in 25 years that that’s happened.
HOGUE: Let me do this…let me jump another question- let’s go back to the 2 1 and 1 on this and we’ll make it Iran and Carly I’ll start with you. An accusation has been made by Chuck DeVore in this campaign and it revolves around Iran and printers sold as you CEO of HP. 2 min in response and then 1 min each. Then we will free flow on this as well. Carly the accusation that the DeVore camp has made is that while as CEO of HP you sold Iran printers through a Middle Eastern distributor. Is that accurate and true?
FIORINA: Well this is a classic case of Chuck DeVore. The truth is and he knows this to be true. HP has been in compliance with all US law. These accusations that we, that HP, did something unlawful are false, and they are also sadly taking a page from the Democratic Playbook during the 2008 Presidential Convention. I thought somehow in Republican primaries we were a bit better than that. The reality is, the real issue in Iran is how do we stop Iran’s never ending march towards a nuclear weapon. How do we deal with the fact that Iran continues to call for the destruction of Israel? How do we respond to the fact that Syria and Iran, Syria, yet another country that President Obama has been reaching out to in a diplomatic effort over the last year and has sent diplomatic envoys to Syria for the first time in many years. Syria and Iran came together, shook hands and declared, together, that they were committed to the destruction of Israel. Those are the real issues in the Middle East and those are the real issues with regard to Iran. I believe we need to stop talking now and start acting. And that is why I have called upon the Congress to quickly reconcile the two pieces of legislation. One has passed the House and one has passed the Senate, both of them are focused on imposing sanctions against preventing the shipment of refined petroleum into Iran. That would be a good first step. They should reconcile those two pieces of legislation as quickly as possible, send them to President Obama and he should sign them. We need to stop talking at the United nations, China and Russia, will not support sanctions against Iran because it is not in their commercial interests to do so. We should acknowledge that and do what we must do to take action.
HOGUE: Carly Fiorina talking about printers and Iran. Chuck your campaign, the first to bring this to light, a minute on the clock to talk about your concern.
DEVORE: Well, I am extremely concerned because we are not talking about simply compliance with obscure export controls, Carly Fiorina as CEO of HP could have severed relationship with Redington Gulf, by the way as HP has done in the early part of 2009 after a very damaging article came out in the Boston Globe. The facts are these: there is company in Dubai called Redington Gulf. Now that name just didn’t spring out of the sands of Dubai. Redington is the middle name of William Redington Hewitt, one of the founders of HP. Under Carly Fiorina watch in 2003 when she was CEO she named Redington Gulf her wholesaler of the year for all of HP. And this was at a time when the Islamic Republic of Iran was busy equipping terrorists in Iraq with the equipment needed to create improvised explosive devices that were killing American troops. So her company was trading through an intermediary into the Islamic Republic of Iran, a relationship that has now been severed. And so when she calls for sanctions against Iran, which certainly we can agree with. The hypocritical thing is that she participated as a CEO in undermining those very sanctions.
HOGUE: Minute on the clock – Tom Campbell
CAMPBELL: Well, I’ve heard neither of my colleagues say what I said and I said it over two months ago - that if Israel takes military action to terminate the threat of nuclear weapons targeting Israel from Iran, the U.S. should support Israel in so doing. Perhaps my colleagues will say so today. But in two opportunities now Ms. Fiorina has not said that. Secondly, the new head of the IAEA, [NAME] replacing [NAME], has said there is no question, Iran will very soon have this capability. And no realistic person looking at this situation says that suddenly Ahmadinejad is going to take his mind and give in. His goal is to become the leader of the anti-Israel segment in the world. And he will proceed to nuclear weapons. If we can’t, as candidates, at least can say that we will support Israel if it takes action it might help and certainly place a marker down that is clear. Lastly, none of my opponents can point to a matter of record. I’ve actually voted to go to war when Israel and the U.S. were threatened by Saddam Hussein.
HOGUE: In talking about national security, foreign affairs, terrorism, I’d like this cross fire here to encompass everything. Toward you Tom, as far as being anti-Israel, HP and printers to Iran. You’re running for U.S. Senate, you’re going to represent the country in the Senate in the midst of a war on terrorism that continues. Why are you the best suited for the position and why are your opponents not as good as you? And Chuck we’ll start with you. And it’s a free for all so jump in as you can folks.
DEVORE: Well, as I mentioned before, I am the sole candidate on either side of the aisle with military experience. I’m a lieutenant colonel of military intelligence within the U.S. army. This is something that I am proud to have served my nation since 1983, I also worked for Caspar Weinberger in the Pentagon where as a special assistant for foreign affairs and in that capacity traveled on official business to Morocco, Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan. I have been to Israel 4 times, I’ve studied in Egypt, I’ve been shot at in Lebanon, I’ve experienced the gritty reality of the Middle East. This has, I think, given me good insight into the present conflict in the Middle East. I studied Islamic political thought in Cairo, Egypt. And at one time I was relatively proficient in Arabic. I understand some of these concepts that the jihadis hold, like the concept of Darralislam or Darralharb or the wordlist [indecipherable] sphere Islamic peace or the wordlist [indecipherable] sphere of Islamic infidels and how that can be externalized to justify jihad. And I think that in today’s present environment, I’m the candidate that understands the stakes in the region. I do stand behind Israel and the right to defend themselves. In fact, if Iran fires a missile at Israel, the system that Israel will use to defend itself, the aero anti-tactical ballistic missile, I helped create the funding mechanism that made that a reality back in 1987.
HOGUE: In order to get it to free flow. Carly, you’re on the phone a little disadvantage but I’ll give you a step in.
FIORINA: First of all, I can find one thing that I agree with Tom Campbell on and that is I certainly do agree that if Israel is forced to take action against Iran we should support her. But for heavens sake there are many things we should be doing aggressively now to prevent that calamity. And it would be a calamity. Secondly, I presume given Chuck DeVore’s long list of credentials that he just sited on national security that even he knows the difference between, or knows that redistribution of printer ink completely compliant with US Law is not a National Security issue. As for myself, I have spent 20 plus years traveling all over the world. Meeting with heads of state, I have advised the Defense Department, the CIA, the Department of State, I have had the great privilege of being briefed by people like General Hayden, General Petraeus, General Gates, Secretary Rice, I think I understand very well what is going on in the region having traveled there extensively myself. And I have the highest clearances available to a civilian. These are very serious times in the Middle East and around the world and we have to be clear and focus about the nature of the threats that our allies face. I believe the next U.S. Senator from the state of CA will have an opportunity will have an obligation to vote on very important matters whether those matters include the fact that we must win in Afghanistan. Chuck DeVore apparently agrees with Barbara Boxer that we cannot win in Afghanistan and will not support President Obama in Afghanistan. I don’t understand that. I think we have to win in Afghanistan. I think we have to prevail in Iraq. I believe we must stop Iran. And I believe we must stand with Israel no matter what.
HOGUE: Tom we do have a short break, I’ll give you 30 seconds here on the other side I want to come back and detail some items. But go ahead and rebuttal.
CAMPBELL: It’s not rebuttal, you asked what will make each of us the most qualified. I served in the House of Representatives on the International Relations Committee. Perhaps the most important contrast though is this, when Congresswoman Barbara Boxer and I were both in the house Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, I voted to go to war to expel him from Kuwait. She did not. Not only did she fail to vote to sustain the U.S. effort on behalf of the U.S. and Israel but Senator, then Congresswoman Barbara Boxer actually called for a, I’m not making this up, a "pause for peace" - in the middle of the war. Now we now know that Saddam Hussein was targeting his missiles imperfectly. If there had been a "pause for peace" during which we would have stopped the aerial bombardment of Bagdad he would have been able to target those missiles far more effectively. The issue here is who is the best candidate to defeat Barbara Boxer, I go head to head with her on the most important issue a member of the House or Senate ever has to cast, to go to war. I voted do that in America’s interest. She did not. And in my best judgment, that is the contrast that will be convincing to the voters.
HOGUE: We’ll come back and I want to detail the issues. I want to talk about GITMO and Miranda rights. We’ll pick up on Afghanistan as well, what is torture and water boarding maybe a little on immigration if we have time. And I will sneak in economics before we get to the top of the hour. U.S. Senatorial debate live here on talk radio on 1380 KTKZ and we’re back after this.
COMMERICAL
HOGUE: Thirty-four minutes after twelve-noon once again, GOP senatorial debate live here on 1380 KTKZ. We’ll try to get to economy. I am going to keep this free flowing and cross talk here. Going to toss up a couple of issues. Chuck Devore had one item in our open discussion here, Chuck I’ll have you pick that up with Carly Fiorina on the phone line.
DEVORE: Well, very briefly, as you know I worked in the Department of Defense and Carly Fiorina you said that you had advised the Department of Defense. I was wondering how many meetings did you attend while you were engaged in advising the Department of Defense?
FIORINA: I don’t remember the exact number of meetings. Why? Why is it relevant?
DEVORE: It’s relevant because we did a Freedom of Information Act request and we found that out of the seven meetings that happened while you were on this defense board you attended two. And, I attended more meetings than that in a single day in the Pentagon. Fiorina: What you don’t know, Chuck, is that, well you know, you just, as usual, you don’t tend to describe the whole story. Of course, I was battling cancer last year, and unable to travel, but of course what you don’t know is that there have been a whole series of meetings, private meetings, outside of the structure of the Defense Business Board that I have engaged in with a whole set of people in the Department of Defense as well sin the CIA as well as in the Department of State. I take you at your word in terms of your own qualifications. It’s interesting to me that you don’t take me at my word. I’m not quite sure what we’re accomplishing.
DEVORE: Carly, its not my word it’s the word of the Pentagon who we asked and they said, and this was before your unfortunate illness that you attended of two of seven, two of seven meetings.
FIORINA: Did you hear what I just said, Chuck? Did you hear what I just said? Did you hear what I just said?
DEVORE: Just repeating what the Pentagon told me.
DEVORE: Did you hear what I just said?
HOGUE: With that, let's move into another realm of national security and defense. Guantanamo Bay, GITMO, and Miranda Rights for those that want to be panty bombers here in America, Carly, ill give you first crack and more cross talk on this as well.
FIORINA: Well I think common sense says that if something’s not broken you don’t fix it. I don’t think Guantanamo Bay is broken. I think it works just fine. And for those who say Guantanamo Bay is a recruiting tool for terrorists I know, that even if we close Guantanamo Bay, those who intend to harm us will come up with another recruiting tool. I think Guantanamo should be the place where enemy combatants are tried in military tribunals and held. I do not believe that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, or the Christmas Day bomber have earned the right of American citizens. I do not think they have eared the assumption of innocence particularly when they have confessed to these acts, in some cases in chilling detail. I do not believe we should be trying in civilian courts. I do not believe American taxpayer money should be layering them up. I believe they should be tried, and if possible, executed in military tribunals or held in Guantanamo Bay
HOGUE: All right, Gentlemen.
CAMPBELL: During WWII, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it was appropriate to subject enemy combatants, even those who might be American citizens, to military tribunals, and in one case execution. Before the issue had even been decided, been written, an opinion had been written, the Supreme Court allowed the execution to go ahead. And that’s the difference between how you treat people in war and the civilian justice system. I cannot believe, Eric Holder, our Attorney General, deciding to put terrorists who would be in Guantanamo on trial in New York City. What is he thinking? And, I don’t understand where the President is coming from where he suggests that we might send theses terrorist for trial in the United States. No! The way to treat enemy combatants is the way you treat the Nazi saboteurs in WWII. Through a military tribunal, not with the full defense of the Miranda Rights, and then if necessary and appropriate with the death penalty for those who were prepared to or actually did take American lives.
HOGUE: Chuck?
DEVORE: Well this is a very critical question. I am looking at my U.S. Army Military I.D. card and at the bottom it says Geneva Conventions I.D. Card. On the back it indicates that I am Geneva Conventions Category Four. Which is a field grade officer out of anything that means that if I am captured by Geneva Conventions signatory, I can't be forced to do physical work and of course Enlisted people will laugh at that. The point though is that I am the only candidate out of both my republican opponents and Barbara Boxer whose actually studied the law of war and knows the Geneva Convention because we have to study it as someone going though the Command General Staff College in the U.S. Army. And what’s interesting about the rules of war, is that there is actually specific provisions made for guerrillas if they follow a chain of command, if they have a fixed form of I.D. if they treat their captors well, then they deserve equal treatment. Clearly, Al Qaeda and the Taliban do not do this. And as a result they are in a third category, they’re certainly not U.S. citizens who have been accused of crimes and they are certainly not either troops in uniform or Guerillas following an established pattern. They are terrorists and they need to be treated differently. And in this I strenuously disagree with Barbara Boxer, who would suggest that we should bring these terrorists to U.S. soil and give them a federal trial with civilian attorneys. This is ridiculous and it undercuts the morale of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.
CAMPBELL: I want to add one thing. First of all Chuck, I honor your service to our country. Thank you for it. Secondly, in international law we have some precedent, we dealt with pirates this way. And, the way you deal with a pirate, back to the 19th century, when America was very much a tiny country in the world. Under internal law, you find a pirate on the high seas and you capture the pirate and you hang the pirates. There's no trial and Miranda Rights. So, that’s established in American president. Really, one of the longest established presidents we have. That is where the analogy should be drawn for how we treat those who are persistently attacking the United States and her allies in this War on Terror.
HOGUE: And, when we talk about terrorist we always bring up the rift in the Middle East. And, another issues in this primary have been the issues between those who are Israeli and those who are Palestinian. And, there’s two issues there in this primary. One, should the Palestinians have their own territory hence, Palestine? And should the capital in Jerusalem be shared, be split? Carly Fiorina, I’ll start with you on the phone line on this issue.
FIORINA: Well, I think we all support the fact that the peace process ultimately must include a two-state solution. Israel has made unprecedented concessions to try and get that peace process moving again. And, George Mitchell the special Envoy is headed to the Middle East this weekend. It’s unfortunate that as Israel continues to make unprecedented concessions, that they continue to be threatened once again, most recently by Hamas. However, I do not support the notion that Jerusalem should be a divided capital. Tom Campbell apparently does support that Jerusalem should be the divided capital.
CAMPBELL: No, that’s not true.
FIORINA: Well, Tom, you were one of only 34 people in the entire U.S. House of Representatives in 1990 to vote against Jerusalem being the undivided capital of Israel.
CAMPBELL: And the United States at that point was inserting itself into the negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis as to whom the final status of Jerusalem is the deal breaker. That should be resolved by the two parties. The motion was put by a leading democrat in order to embarrass President George H. W. Bush and his Secretary of State James Baker, who had criticized the process for not leading to a faster solution. And, at that point, it was a political maneuver by the democrats and it was not to support…
FIORINA: You know, Tom, that’s a really interesting, and frankly intellectually contorted explanation. The reality is, 34, 33 other congress people agreed with you, everyone else disagreed.
CAMPBELL: Ehud Barak was the Prime…
FIORINA: The vast majority of Congress people were not embarrassed by this supposedly diplomatic maneuver.
CAMPBELL: Ehud Barak was the Prime Minster of Israel at the time. The Oslo Accords had been the basis of negotiating, and Ehud Barak was prepared to discuss a solution that involved as shared capital in Jerusalem. I do not say that that should be the result. I say that the result should be worked out by the Israelis and the Palestinians and for these…
FIORINA: Tom, Tom….
CAMPBELL: Wait just a second I’m almost done.
FIORINA: Tom, did you or did you not…
HOGUE: Hold on we’ll let Tom finish, go ahead Tom.
CAMPBELL: And, the context of that vote was to embarrass Secretary of State James Baker.
HOGUE: Carly?
FIORINA: Did you or did you not vote against Jerusalem being the undivided capital of Israel, and were you or were you not joined by only 33 other people in the entire U.S. House of Representatives?
CAMPBELL: Indeed, the citation to the record is accurate. The resolution would have put a stake in the ground that the United States does not want the issue to be resolved by the two parties at the very time that it was being resolved by the two parties. It was the right vote. And, occasionally in Congress you have to be prepared to cast a courageous vote, not simply go where the majority is.
FIORINA: Well, perhaps that’s why at the time there were a number of publications that described your vote as anti-Israel. And, I think when we get into matters of war and peace, matters of standing with our allies or standing against them, we need to have some core principals and some core beliefs. My core belief is that we must stand and defend Israel. My core belief is that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. And my core belief is as well, that Israel faces an existential threat against many of the same people who you have defended.
CAMPBELL: I have one question for you then. If Israel and the Palestinians agree that there should be a shared arrangement of some kind in Jerusalem would you oppose it?
FIORINA: You know what Tom, the Israelis have been crystal clear on this issue. They have made numerous and recently unprecedented concessions to get the peace process going again. But, you cannot talk, you cannot talk, about achieving a solution unless you were prepared to know where we must draw the line.
CAMPBELL: Would you oppose it?
FORINA: I believe that you tie yourself in knots sometimes to try and explain a fundamentally inconsistent position, and I believe the votes of California want to know what are our core beliefs and what are our core principals.
CAMPBELL: Well you didn’t answer the question. Would you support it if the Israelis and the Palestinians came up with a…
FIORINA: I think it’s a hypothetical…
CAMPBELL: No, no please. You obviously have chosen not to answer it. That’s O.K. you’re dodging it again. But, let me know…
FIORINA: It’s an academic, hypothetical question that’s irrelevant to the process.
CAMPBELL: Fine, Fine, Fine…Except that the Oslo Accords, which were the basis of negotiating between the Barak government and the Palestinians, actually made it a very real opportunity. Thank you.
HOGUE: Chuck?
DEVORE: Well, I think the most important thing in this discussion is what is best served for the United States’ national security interest. Clearly, we have allies in the region, and clearly Israel is one of those allies. And, I think perhaps more Israel is a friend of the United States. I support moving the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem when the Israelis say that it is safe and appropriate to do so. Furthermore, I’m skeptical of a two state solution. I am also skeptical that there is anything intrinsically appropriate about the current boundaries between Israel and the territories of Judea and Samaria. Because, all that is a cease fire line from the 1948 conflict where the combined Arab armies tried to erase Israel from the map. And, of course, Israel took over what’s now known as the West Bank in the 1967 war. interestingly enough, prior to 1967, when Jordan had administration over that part of the soil, they administered it, it was part of Jordan, Jordan was called trans-Jordan at that time as a result. And, Jordan actually tried to erase every last bit of Jewish presence in the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem during the period 1948-1967. These are things that I know personally. I have been to that region four times. I have been short at in Lebanon. I’m quite familiar with the history of this region, and I believe that American national interest are served when we support Israel, because generally speaking, generally speaking, Israel’s’ foes are our foes.
HOGUE: With that, we will take a break here, our last break in this hour-long debate. On the other side, we’ll focus a little bit closer to home. Some economical, recessional topics when we come back from the U.S. Senate perspective. Once again Carly Fiorina, chuck DeVore, Tom Campbell exclusively here on 1380 KTKZ
COMMERICAL
HOGUE: It’s a dozen away from one o’clock back here on 1380 KTKZ. There are so many issue that I’m sure other debates yet to come and the three of them hash out domestic issues, social issues, others talking about healthcare, immigration here in California and for the country. We may touch upon that if we have some time here as we drive toward the top and, but primarily a lot of folks are concerned about the economic situation of the country, rightfully so. Trillion and trillions of debt in the federal budget right now. And here in California, we’re facing once again, a $35 to $40 billion deficit all over again, again, So, the easy question here from the private sector and Carly Fiorina, I will start with you. And let’s keep it cross. You guys have done a marvelous job of being fair to each other so we’ll stay away from the format and keep it open talk as we journey on. Carly, if you could, and we’ll hand it around the room here. Carly, what is the line, is it too high right now or can we increase it, the tax burden upon the people of California and pretty much the people of the country. What would say to increasing the tax burden, Carly Fiorina?
FIORINA: The tax burden is already too high. The tax burden must be cut, must be lowered. That is the only way we can get our economy growing again. To facing trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. We must do two thing. We must get the economy growing again by creating jobs and that means cutting taxes and we must actually cut federal spending. Now, once again, this is an area where Tom Campbell and I apparently disagree fundamentally. In 1989, when he was a congressman, he proposed a gas tax increase in congress. In 1997, he was the only Republican to vote against tax cuts. Last year, he proposed a sixteen billion dollar tax increase for the people of California. He has said that he wants to increase the gasoline tax by 32 cents a gallon to close the California budget deficit. We already have the highest gas tax in the nation at 65 cents and unlike me and unlike Chuck Devore, Tom Campbell will not sign the taxpayer protection pledge. He says he doesn’t want his hands tied. I think we need our hands tied. What I am worried about is that when Democrats have 59 votes in the Senate, Tom Campbell will be the their 60th vote just like he was when he was in congress.
HOGUE: Tom, go right ahead.
CAMPBELL: That’s absolute inaccurate. The national taxpayers union foundation rates members of congress and in the 102nd and the 106th, 2 of the 5 congresses in which I served, they rated me number one single most fiscally responsible based on the amount of net cuts that I was prepared to introduce and did introduce or co-sponsored. Interesting, in those first years, at that first congress, Senator Barbara Boxer was in congress with me and she was 412th when I was number 1. The second time, she was over in the senate and she was 95 out of 100 when I was again number 1. I don’t think it’s possible to find a better record on the national taxpayer union foundation metric to contrast with Senator Boxer’s than mine. And I have never proposed that taxes be increased at the federal budget to close the federal budget. What I have proposed is that you go into President Obama’s proposed budget and you can find more than $600 billion to cut, which I have put up on my website, Campbell.org, and you’ll see my plan for curbing the rate of growth of federal deficits. And one last, important point, we need to return to Gramm-Rodman-Hollings. We return to Gramm-Rodman-Hollings because that was the last system that actually constrained the rate of growth of spending the last time I was in congress 10 years ago. We actually balanced the budget.
HOGUE: Chuck, go right ahead.
DEVORE: Well, absolutely. Tax rates are too high. America has the second highest business tax in the world and just (inaudible). Japan has the highest. Hasn’t exactly been working out for them well in recent years. We have to cut our capital gains tax to encourage investment and hard work. And if you look at the record, while Tom Campbell did talk about his fiscal prudence on the spending side, what he didn’t talk about is he did in fact support Prop 1A, which was the extension of the largest tax increase in US history at the state level. He did support a 32 cent a gallon gas tax increase here in California. And, by the way, he opposed the Bush tax cuts and so what you find is, yes he has been good on the spending side, but he hasn’t been so good on the tax side. I think that’s very important that we have someone that’s good on both sides. And I think I am, that’s why I’m endorsed by the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. I do have a record in the California state Assembly. You can contrast my record with Tom Campbell’s record in congress and as a state senator and I think I come out very well in the comparison. Of course we don’t know what Carly Fiorina’s record is because she doesn’t have a record and she’s only voted about 6 times in her life.
CAMPBELL: Indeed, Chuck. I was very pleased that you voted for the budget that I crafted when I was finance director. And that has taken some criticism for a while, then your campaign corrected the criticism and recognized that in fact the budget that I prepared that you’re criticizing, you had actually voted for. So let me say today, thank you for voting for the budget that I put together. All the criticism have been directed toward the state. At the federal level, I have never supported a tax increase as a means of balancing the budget, never. And as to the state, it’s a very different situation when you cannot print money. If you go into the state budget, it is exceptionally different. And as a result of not taking my suggestions, particularly Prop 76 which I campaigned and which I put the version that went to the legislature. If you don’t do that, then you have what happened last year, which is a permanent increase in the income tax. A temporary tax increase at the state level is what Ronald Reagan, George Deukmejian and Pete Wilson all did. And I put that forward in the state context, please make the distinction clear.
HOGUE: Carly?
FIORINA: Well, let me just throw out a couple facts here. First, you did support, Tom, a $16 billion tax increase for the state of California and a 32 cent increase in the gasoline tax for the state of California. That is what I charge and that is what is true. Secondly, are you actually suggestion that the federal government print more money? I think that would be disastrous. Third, both the 2005 and the 2008 state budgets, which Chuck Devore, you voted for, the 2005 budget that Tom Campbell, you’re so proud of, in fact increased state spending by record amounts and relied on borrowing, not to mention fee increases. Tom Campbell, you have supported internet taxes, even Barbara Boxer…
CAMPBELL: So did you.
FIORINA: Even Barbara Boxer….
CAMPBELL: Carly, I can’t believe it. You were in favor of Internet taxes. I couldn’t believe it.
FIORINA: No, Tom, I’ve been leading the charge as a technology executive against internet taxes….
CAMPBELL: I’ve got the San Jose Mercury News article where you said the industry can no longer continue free from taxation.
DEVORE: They’re both right, but I never did.
FIORINA: This is another place where…
CAMPBELL: Furthermore, it’s not internet taxes, it’s allowing taxation to be equal between brick and mortar and between internet sales. Treat them equally, that’s all I’ve ever said.
HOGUE: Carly, go ahead.
FIORINA: You know, one of the things that was going on, I’ve been a technology executive. I chaired the technology policy institute, I’ve earned by understanding of the internet and taxation on the internet would be disastrous. People like Tom Campbell were sitting in congress advocating for taxation on the internet. Even Barbara Boxer was right on this issue. The reality is that the only candidate in this primary who supports internet taxation is Tom Campbell and Tom Campbell, I will ask you again, why will you not sign the taxpayer protection pledge?
CAMPBELL: And the reason is clear because opportunities, for example, suppose there is another airline crisis involving security and in order to beef up security we need to out a tax on airline tickets. Are you going to vote no if that money, no let me just ask you, would you vote no on a special tax on airline tickets to beef up security on airlines.
FIORINA: I would, yes, and the reason I would vote no is because there is absolutely no reason that our federal government, which is now $12.5 trillion in debt, cannot trim spending from the waste bloat that sits in the federal government bureaucracy to deal with its most important priority, which is to protect the men and women of this country.
HOGUE: With that, we’ll have to go to the, shut the free flow down. And, once again, there will be further debates as we go. We move toward closing comments here. And, once again, we randomly drew names out of a hat and 6 seconds for each of you. Assemblymember Chuck Devore.
DEVORE: Well, I want to close by thanking both Tom Campbell and Carly Fiorina for participating in this debate. I think it’s tremendously important that the three of us speak directly to one another before the voters at every opportunity. I’d like to thank Eric Hogue for being an alert and gracious host, I believe that choice for California’s Republicans for United States Senate is very clear. Every poll shows that Barbara Boxer is equally vulnerable to all three Republican candidates. The question then is why wouldn’t we want to pick a candidate with the strongest record to face her. I am that candidate. I have no record of advocating for tax hikes. I have no questionable corporate history, I have no past association with anti-American radicals. I have no history of liberalism of any kind. What I have is a solid public record of conservative credentials. Whether in office in the community or in uniform of the United States Army. I have always held true to the principles of limited government, low taxes and even lower spending and I’m the only candidate who can say that. I ask for your support, you can learn how to help at ChuckDevore.com and I thank you for listening.
HOGUE: With that we turn to former congressman Tom Campbell.
CAMPBELL: Our state is suffering unemployment of unprecedented proportions, our nation is as well. The important question is how do we get jobs started again. Employers with jobs to offer and investors with funds to invest in new enterprises won’t invest as long as they are uncertain about the size of the federal deficit and its growth. I’m the only candidate with a proven track record. Two of the five congresses with which I’ve served, I was rated by the National Taxpayers Union Association as the single most fiscally responsible. I believe that I would contrast very well with senator Boxer and, most important, show how we can get jobs returning as confidence returns by actually controlling our budget deficit. Today I called for this debate, I wanted to give my two opponents every opportunity to bring up every charge and I believe they’ve done so and I also believe that I’ve answered every single charge. In the future, any such attacks, you can find my responses on a new website I am creating, CampbellFacts.org. Go to CampbellFacts.org and you’ll get the truth about things that happened ten years ago or whatever charges are manufactured sadly as have happened in this campaign. Thank you’ I appreciated this opportunity.
HOGUE: I appreciate that. With that, closing comments for CEO Carly Fiorina, sixty seconds Carly.
FIORINA: Thanks Eric. Thanks Tom and Chuck as well and thanks to your listeners for allowing us to speak about this important election. I will fight for every job, I will vote against every tax increase, I will champion reduced regulation, lower taxes and lower government spending and I will stand with our allies and support what is necessary to defend our nation. We must take our government back and make it work. We must have someone in the US Senate who has real world experience and know how to create jobs, knows how to cut spending, knows how to balance a budget, and knows how to make tough choices in tough times. We must have someone in the US Senate who has a common sense approach and real problem solving ability. We must have someone in the US Senate who isn’t afraid to ask the tough questions and who hasn’t spent a lifetime cutting deals with other politicians or running for yet another political office. And, most of all, we must have someone as our candidate for the US Senate who can actually beat Barbara Boxer. I am that candidate, I will never forget who I am working for or who pays my salary. Together we can take our government back, we can make it work, but first we must defeat Barbara Boxer.
HOGUE: Carly, thank you so much. Carly Fiorina, CEO Carly Fiorina on the phone line today. Our thanks to her and her campaign team. Assemblymember Chuck Devore and his campaign team. And of course former congressman Tom Campbell and his campaign team. And, most of all, a thanks to you for listening and being part of this and all of our sponsors pulling away, giving us more time today in a one hour free flow right here on 1380 KTKZ.
| The GOP Senatorial Debate Transcript
Excerpt: Just a little different today on the format. We’re more than happy to entertain the three Republican candidates for U.S. Senate on the GOP side of the aisle here on 1380 KTKZ. Welcoming the state. We’ve got many people listening via the website at KTKZ.com and our thanks off the top here to our sponsors, which have cleared the way for the entire hour. We will have three short breaks in this hour during this debate, and they will be very, very short. Right around 15 minutes after the hour, thirty minutes after the hour, forty five minutes after the hour. The debate does have some rules today, and they’re rather simple, just to give us some structure and some format to get the answers out so you can hear the candidates here. Real simple, I will ask a question, an initial question in each round to one of the candidates, and then they will have two minutes to respond and I will keep track of the time right here...
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http://hoguenews.com/?p=8553
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05-23-2010, 07:03 AM
Lying about or even exaggerating that experience is not. 
It's embarrassing.
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