How John Kerry Helped Hanoi Jane During JFK's Vietnam War! Kerry Call Viet Vets' "Baby killers" JFK - His Hero - Started The War!

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:59:24 -0800, Patrick t.
wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:54:24 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
> wrote:
>
>>Wow, what an asinine rationale.
>>You certainly are a useful idiot for the bush gang.
>>Get a clue, kid. Nobody gives a fuck if you went and shot yourself in the
>>foot to escape military service, but for some guy running for president it's
>>a bit different.
>>I bet you that if Kerry was an awol chickenhawk like the shrub, it would
>>suddenly be terribly important for you to point that out to the voters.
>>Time to trot out a new line, you illiterate hypocrite.
>
>Well dildobreath. I did run for President, and I got a hell of a lot
>of votes
snip

what party and what state?

THOM

Charlie Wolf wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 2123 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
> wrote:
>
>>hey, chuckie, if the shoe fits...
>>anyone stupid enough to defend the shrub's military dereliction of duty,
>>when the guy himself is afraid to touch the topic, is certainly a prime
>>example of a useful idiot.
>Sheesh you're a fucking moron. Let me run through this again for you.
>GWB served honorably, and was honorably discharged. He was not
>derelict in duty, AWOL or a deserter. That is fact.
>
>Kerry on the other hand, DESERTED his own troops in Vietnam and came
>back to the states and called them all war criminals. My source??
>Kerry himself.
>Regards,

He deserted no one.

He called all of them war criminals? How 'bout a quote?

Doug

Lone Haranguer wrote:
>Luis ORTEGA wrote:
>
>> Wow, what an asinine rationale.
>
>Sounds logical to me. You care a great deal about Bush's military
>service. How about the FACT that Kerry got out 6 months early on his
>service committment so he could join Jane Fonda and her traitorous gang
>in protesting the war?
>
>Don't you think that is germane to the subject?

Not really. Bush did it. Kerry did it. I did it -- a few months after
Kerry did. So what?

Doug

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 2359 GMT, thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 13:01:03 -0800, Patrick t.
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 2026 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Charlie Wolf" wrote
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >It's clear that if bush had a military record that wasn't a complete
>>>scandal
>>>> >he would be wearing it on his lapel instead of trying to hide it.
>>>
>>>> Why respond to a bunch of fucking liars - like you??
>>>
>>>actually, if he had any kind of military record that wasn't a total scandal
>>>he would be flogging it every day to impress useful idiots like you.
>>>
>>Save this post to refer back to it when kerry gets outed for the
>>treacherous piece of shit that he is asshole.
>
>and that makes Bush's disgracefull record any better HOW????
>
>THOM

Whats yours besides being born in DogPatch?

"Lone Haranguer" wrote
> If you think everyone should post their military records on Usenet, why
> not set a good example and do so yourself????
> I've posted a complete military history myself if you want to dig for it
> on Google.


geez, try to keep up with the plot, eh, kid?
what the fuck does posting your or my military record on the internet have
to do with anything?
we're talking about a guy running for president who was afraid to provide
anything, verbal, written or otherwise, to refute the fact that he was an
awol, chickenhawk draft dodger guilty of dereliction of duty while on a
cushy posting that he got because of daddy's connections.
you can bet your ass that if bush had any proof that his military stint was
anything other than a scandalous con job, he and his gang of idiots would
have provided the proof long ago.
as it is, the shrub is still stonewalling about his drug use and his awol
antics. i suspect that the real reason is that he was so stoned during that
time that he doesn't even remember.
he certainly doesn't seem to know jack shit about flying a plane.

here's a report on his flying:

Donnie Evans remembered a similar story involving an airplane. He told David
Maraniss that less than a year after George W. first got back to Midland he
came over to Donnie's house and told him he wanted to take a single-engine
Cessna for a little joyride. They drove over to the airfield and got in the
plane. Then George W. realized he didn't have a clue how to fly a Cessna.
"The guy didn't even know how to start the thing," Evans reportedly said.
"That was a bad omen. Finally we get it started and roll down the runway,
and he tries to take it straight up like a jet! We go into a stall, buzzcrs
are going off. I say, 'Give it some gas!' We finally get it airborne, and he
decides he better turn around and go back. I can tell he's nervous, but he
says, 'Okay, Evvie, got it under control.' We come down and he lands half on
the runway and half on the grass. And then he pats my leg and says don't
worry, and he takes it up again. This time he's so scared he says, 'Hey,
let's fly around Midland.' He had to get his confidence up. Somehow we got
back safely. He's never flown again. If he flew the T-41A at Moody, should
have been his Primary Trainer in '68, he should have been able to fly the
Cessna 172 in '76. Even if it was 12 years later, he should have been
rechecked on it before the rental. Was he just screwing around? Hard to say.
Does it sound like a real pilot? No."

go back to sucking on your blanket, linus.
you're pissing against the wind here, kid.

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 2332 GMT, thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 1101 -0800, Patrick t.
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:04:28 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Horvath" wrote
>>>> How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>> binge?
>>>
>>>apparently, he didn't.
>>>
>>>Why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as Senator
>>>John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
>>>Computer records show last physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR
>>>MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.
>>Could you be so kind as to post ALL of your military records here for
>>us on a.w.v. thank you.
>
>if you had been in the military yourself you would have remembered
>that on release or discharge we were ordered to place our DD-214's on
>public record (county recorder) in our home of record.
>
>Mine is at the Santa Barbara Country recorder in California AND the
>Jefferson County Recorder in Colorado. Where's Bush's??????
>
>THOM
I guess thats the difference between you and me and George. We
weren't ordered to put our DD-214 anywhere. As a matter of fact, I
kept mine in the side pocket of my 1952 MGTD for quite a while and
then transferred it to a SunBeam Tiger.

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 2332 GMT, thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 1101 -0800, Patrick t.
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:04:28 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Horvath" wrote
>>>> How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>> binge?
>>>
>>>apparently, he didn't.
>>>
>>>Why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as Senator
>>>John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
>>>Computer records show last physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR
>>>MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.
>>Could you be so kind as to post ALL of your military records here for
>>us on a.w.v. thank you.
>
>if you had been in the military yourself you would have remembered
>that on release or discharge we were ordered to place our DD-214's on
>public record (county recorder) in our home of record.
>
>Mine is at the Santa Barbara Country recorder in California AND the
>Jefferson County Recorder in Colorado. Where's Bush's??????
>
>THOM


http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 2306 GMT, thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 1439 -0600, Charlie Wolf
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 1902 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gomer" wrote
>>>> The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL,
>>>> Either
>>>> By Peter Keating and Karthik Thyagarajan
>>>> For more than a year, controversy about George W. Bush's Air National
>>>> Guard record has bubbled through the press. Interest in the topic has
>>>> spiked in recent days, as at least two websites have launched stories
>>>> essentially calling Bush AWOL in 1972 and 1973.
>>>
>>>So, why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as
>>>Senator
>>>John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
>>>Obviously, he knows a lot more about his own dereliction of duty than the
>>>two useful idiot apologists who cranked out that story you posted.
>>>It's clear that if bush had a military record that wasn't a complete scandal
>>>he would be wearing it on his lapel instead of trying to hide it.
>>Why respond to a bunch of fucking liars - like you??
>>Regards,
>
>you mean like Bush refuses to respond to calls for his miliary
>records, DD-214 and DD-256AF???
>
>THOM
>>
>>>
>>
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 2329 GMT, thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
wrote:

>On 04 Feb 2004 1710 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:
>
>>Perry wrote:
>>>On 04 Feb 2004 04:41:54 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:
>>>
>>>>Lone Haranguer wrote:
>>>>>Doug Reese wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Horvath wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:58:04 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>>>>>>> wrote this crap:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>gee, arnie, just what are you trying to say?
>>>>>>>>that kerry was a politically and morally in step with the rest of the
>>>>>>>>country during the vietnam war, which was rightly recognized as an immoral
>>>>>>>>quagmire at the time?
>>>>>>>>meanwhile, dubya was about halfway into his 40 year alchohol and cocaine
>>>>>>>>binge and missed that whole vietnam thingy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>>>>>binge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He didn't fly for all that long, actually.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doug
>>>>>
>>>>>How many hours of jet fighter time do you have?
>>>>>
>>>>>Any?
>>>>>LZ
>>>>
>>>>Gee, you got me there. But, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't fly all that
>>>>long.
>>>>
>>>>Then again, I have quite a bit of time in helicopters -- all of which were in a
>>>>combat zone, as opposed to however many hours he spent in a jet in Texas.
>>>>
>>>>Doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>ok one who knows all, how many hours did he have in a F102. you claim
>>>to know so why not tell us.
>>
>>Don't have a clue. I do know that he actually flew in the Guard from the spring of
>>1970 till the spring of 1972.
>
>OK lets look at that. he would have put in say 200 hours in all types
>training if he'se lucky and that leaves 4 years (not counting his
>missing time) so figure 3 hours a weekend, one wekend a month for 4 =
>344 hrs tops. Not very much especially conisdeing he was ground after
>refusing the physical so it might be under 300 hours.
>
>THOM
>>
>>Doug
>>
>>
>>
I do believe ANG assigned for Air Defense do more than weekends. The
operate 24/7.

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:44:24 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
wrote:

>"Lone Haranguer" wrote
>> If you think everyone should post their military records on Usenet, why
>> not set a good example and do so yourself????
>> I've posted a complete military history myself if you want to dig for it
>> on Google.
>
>
>geez, try to keep up with the plot, eh, kid?
>what the fuck does posting your or my military record on the internet have
>to do with anything?
>we're talking about a guy running for president who was afraid to provide
>anything, verbal, written or otherwise, to refute the fact that he was an
>awol, chickenhawk draft dodger guilty of dereliction of duty while on a
>cushy posting that he got because of daddy's connections.
>you can bet your ass that if bush had any proof that his military stint was
>anything other than a scandalous con job, he and his gang of idiots would
>have provided the proof long ago.
>as it is, the shrub is still stonewalling about his drug use and his awol
>antics. i suspect that the real reason is that he was so stoned during that
>time that he doesn't even remember.
>he certainly doesn't seem to know jack shit about flying a plane.
>
>here's a report on his flying:
>
>Donnie Evans remembered a similar story involving an airplane. He told David
>Maraniss that less than a year after George W. first got back to Midland he
>came over to Donnie's house and told him he wanted to take a single-engine
>Cessna for a little joyride. They drove over to the airfield and got in the
>plane. Then George W. realized he didn't have a clue how to fly a Cessna.
>"The guy didn't even know how to start the thing," Evans reportedly said.
>"That was a bad omen. Finally we get it started and roll down the runway,
>and he tries to take it straight up like a jet! We go into a stall, buzzcrs
>are going off. I say, 'Give it some gas!' We finally get it airborne, and he
>decides he better turn around and go back. I can tell he's nervous, but he
>says, 'Okay, Evvie, got it under control.' We come down and he lands half on
>the runway and half on the grass. And then he pats my leg and says don't
>worry, and he takes it up again. This time he's so scared he says, 'Hey,
>let's fly around Midland.' He had to get his confidence up. Somehow we got
>back safely. He's never flown again. If he flew the T-41A at Moody, should
>have been his Primary Trainer in '68, he should have been able to fly the
>Cessna 172 in '76. Even if it was 12 years later, he should have been
>rechecked on it before the rental. Was he just screwing around? Hard to say.
>Does it sound like a real pilot? No."
>
>go back to sucking on your blanket, linus.
>you're pissing against the wind here, kid.
>
>


Bush's stint in Guard scrutinized
Flier avoided battle but favoritism denied
07/04/99
By Pete Slover and George Kuempel / The Dallas Morning News AUSTIN -
With the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old George W. Bush wanted to join
the Texas Air National Guard in 1968. He offered no aviation
experience but cited his work as a ranch hand, oil field "roustabout"
and sporting goods salesman.
He passed the written test required for pilot trainees. Among the
results:
He showed below-average potential as a would-be flier but scored high
as a future leader.
Although Mr. Bush's unit in Texas had a waiting list for many spots,
he was accepted because he was one of a handful of applicants willing
and qualified to spend more than a year in active training, and extra
shifts after training, flying single-seat F-102 fighter jets. Once he
was in, Guard officials sought to capitalize on his standing as the
son of a congressman.
A 1970 Guard news release featured Mr. Bush as "one member of our
younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or
speed. "On, he gets high, all right, but not from narcotics," it
said. "Fighters are it," Mr. Bush is quoted as saying. "I've always
wanted to be a fighter pilot, and I wouldn't want to fly anything
else." Such are the details that emerge from a review of Mr. Bush's
service record by The Dallas Morning News, along with interviews with
Guard leaders, former colleagues and state officials familiar with
that unit. Mr. Bush, 52, now the Republican front-runner for
president, has repeatedly denied suggestions by political rivals that
he received preferential treatment to get into the Guard - widely seen
as a haven from which enlistees were unlikely to be shipped to
Vietnam. As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed
to his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard
pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called.
"There was no special treatment," he said. Mr. Bush said he took
flying seriously. "You will die in your airplane if you didn't
practice, and I wasn't interested in dying," he said. Records
provided to The News by Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air
National Guard, show that the unit Mr. Bush signed up for was not
filled. In mid-1968, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, based in
Houston, had 156 openings among its authorized staff of 925 military
personnel. Of those, 26 openings were for officer slots, such as that
filled by Mr. Bush, and 130 were for enlisted men and women. Also,
several former Air Force pilots who served in the unit said that they
were recruited from elsewhere to fly for the Texas Guard.
Officers who supervised Mr. Bush and approved his admission to the
Guard said they were never contacted by anyone on Mr. Bush's behalf.
"He didn't have any strings pulled, because there weren't any strings
to pull," said Leroy Thompson of Brownwood, who commanded the squadron
that kept the waiting list for the guard at Ellington Air Force Base.
"Our practices were under incredible scrutiny then. It was a very
ticklish time."
Fellow members of the Bush unit said they knew of his background.
U.S. Rep. George Bush was at his son's side when he was made an
officer in the Guard. The elder Mr. Bush, a former World War II pilot,
later spoke at his son's graduation from flight school.
David Hanifl of La Crescent, Minn., an Air Force regular who went
through pilot training in Georgia with George W. Bush, said the flight
instructors were eager to fly with the Texan.
"He didn't get any preferential treatment, but some of the instructors
liked the idea of scheduling him to fly with them because of his
connections," he said.
Mr. Hanifl said it was somewhat unusual for a Guardsman to be included
in the flight class with Air Force regulars. "You had to have clout
to get that type of assignment," he said. He added that Mr. Bush was a
good pilot and did not seek any favors. Also getting into the Bush
unit in 1968 was Lloyd Bentsen III, a recent graduate of Stanford
University business school whose father was a former congressman later
elected Democratic U.S. senator from Texas.
The waiting list
According to several former officers, the openings in the unit were
filled from a waiting list kept in the base safe of Rufus G. Martin,
then an Air National Guard personnel officer.
In a recent interview, Mr. Martin of San Antonio said the list was
kept on computer and in a bound volume, which was periodically
inspected by outside agencies to make sure the list was kept properly.
Mr. Bush said he sought the Guard position on his own, before
graduating from Yale University in 1968. He personally met with Col.
Walter B. Staudt, commander of the 147th group.
In an interview, Mr. Bush said he walked into Col. Staudt's Houston
office and told him he wanted to be a fighter pilot. "He told me they
were looking for pilots," Mr. Bush said. He said he was told that
there were five or six flying slots available, and he got one of them.
While Guard slots generally were coveted, pilot positions required
superior education, physical fitness and the willingness to spend more
than a year in full-time training.
"If somebody like that came along, you'd snatch them up," said the
former commander, who retired as a general. "He took no advantage. It
wouldn't have made any difference whether his daddy was chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
Bobby Hodges, the group's operations officer, and others familiar with
Guard rules said Mr. Bush made it to the top of the short list of
candidates who could pass both the written officer test and a rigorous
flight physical to qualify for the three to four annual pilot training
"quotas" allotted to the unit.
Mr. Hodges and Gen. Staudt are the two surviving members of the
military panel that reviewed and approved Mr. Bush's officer
commission. Most of those wanting to get into the Guard at that time,
they said, didn't want to put in the full year of active service that
was required to become a pilot.
Pilot aptitude test
Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after
inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force
recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test
required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot
aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile,
the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.
Ralph J. Ianuzzi, a newly minted Air Force captain, supervised
administration of the test and signed Mr. Bush's score sheet, an event
of which he had no recollection.
The pilot portion of the exam included tasks such as identifying the
angle of a plane in flight after being shown the view from the cockpit
and figuring out which way a gear in a machine would turn in response
to another gear's being turned.
"That score for pilot seems low. I made that, and I'm dyslexic," Mr.
Ianuzzi, a retired FBI agent who never earned his wings but said it
was significant that Mr. Bush did. "He passed the most important test.
He flew the plane."
On the "officer quality section," designed to measure intangible
traits such as leadership, Mr. Bush scored better than 95 percent of
those taking the test.
It's impossible to compare Mr. Bush's score on the test to scores of
other pilot candidates, because Air Force historians say no records
survive of average scores for those accepted to pilot training.
Pilot training
After completing basic training in San Antonio in August 1968, he
helped out aircraft mechanics at Ellington until that November, when a
pilot-training slot came open.
He was promoted to second lieutenant and began a 13-month pilot
training program at Moody Air Force Base, in Georgia. He was the only
Guardsman among the 70 or so officers from other branches of the
military who began the training.
Under the terms of his contract with the military, if Mr. Bush had
failed to complete pilot school, he would have been required to serve
the Guard in some other capacity, to enter the draft, or to enlist in
another branch of the military.
After passing flight training, Mr. Bush was schooled for several more
months at Ellington, and in March 1970 began flying "alerts," the name
used to describe the 147th's mission of guarding gulf coast borders
against foreign attack.
In those days, the 147th kept at least two fighters ready to scramble,
round-the-clock, guarding Texas oil fields and refineries against
airstrikes.
"It's kind of a non-threatening way to do your military, get paid well
for some long shifts, and feel good about your own involvement," said
Douglas W. Solberg, now an airline pilot, offering his reasons for
joining the 147th and serving with Mr. Bush after an Air Force flying
stint. "It was a cushy way to be a patriot."
A former non-commissioned officer who worked on planes and supervised
other ground crews at Ellington said Mr. Bush was not a silver-spoon
snob or elitist, unlike some former Air Force fliers. "I remember him
coming down, kicking the tires, washing the windows, whatever," said
Joe H. Briggs, now of Houston. 'I'm probably one of the few people
around who'll admit I voted for Clinton. But I'll pull for this guy
for president."
No overseas duty
Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be checked
specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas duty. His
includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer for such an
assignment.
But several personnel officers said that part of the application for
domestic Guard units routinely would be filled out that way by a clerk
typist, then given to the applicant to sign. Mr. Bush has said that
he signed up for but lacked the number of flying hours to participate
in a program called the Palace Alert, which eventually rotated nine
pilots from his unit into duty in Southeast Asia from 1969 to 1970.
His signup and willingness to participate was confirmed by several of
his
colleagues and superiors, who remembered the effort as brash but
admirable.
"The more experienced pilots were shaking their heads, saying, 'He
doesn't even know where to park the planes,' " said Albert C. Lloyd,
then head of personnel for the Texas Air National Guard. Some
attention has also focused on Mr. Bush's departure from the service.
Under his original oath, he was obligated to serve in the Guard until
May 1974. Instead, he was allowed to leave in October 1973 to attend
Harvard Business School.
Former Guard officials and members of Mr. Bush's unit said that
release, seven months early, was not unusual for the Guard. Mr. Bush's
unit was changing airplanes at the time, from the single-seat F-102 to
the dual-seat F-101. They said it made little sense to retrain him for
just a few months' service, and letting him go freed spots for the
Guard to recruit F-101 pilots from the Air Force and elsewhere.