Navy Staffs Ships With Civilians

[SparrowHawk62]

Navy Staffs Ships With Civilians
Associated Press
May 12, 2004
ABOARD THE USS CORONADO - Chief engineer Andrew Busk wears jeans and a T-shirt to work, and he doesn't salute when the captain walks by. Although Busk is in charge of the engine room of the U.S. 7th Fleet's temporary flagship, he isn't even in the Navy.

But he could be the look of its future.
Reflecting increasing pressure to cut costs and shift personnel to where they are most needed, the USS Coronado recently sailed into Yokosuka, the fleet's home port just south of Tokyo, with a mostly civilian crew in an experiment officials say could have broad implications for the way the U.S. Navy staffs its ships around the world.

Stretched thin by tight fiscal restraints and the demands of supporting operations in Iraq and elsewhere, the Navy is streamlining its forces and rethinking its deployments. As part of the changes, it is cutting nearly 8,000 personnel - for an estimated annual savings of nearly US$1 billion.

The Coronado experiment fits right in with the streamlining motif.
Though the top command, weapons and other key positions are reserved for military personnel, civilians outnumber military sailors on the San Diego-based Coronado 153 to 117. The size of the crew is also significantly smaller - about 200 fewer than usual.

Officers say the crew reduction was possible mainly because of the experience the civilians bring with them. Though most Navy ships carry many young sailors still learning how to do their jobs, the civilians aboard the Coronado are seasoned mariners who can often do the work of several trainees.

"If they want to save money, we can do the job cheaper and more effectively," Busk said, adding that he was able to cut the Coronado's engine room staff from 18 to just three by increasing automation and cutting redundancy.

That approach has a lot of appeal to today's Navy.
Unlike their enlisted counterparts, civilians can be let go as soon as they are no longer needed. Though they are paid about twice as much as people in uniform, they don't get many of the military's benefits, including its retirement package.

They can also be used for custodial or cooking tasks, freeing up sailors for what Navy planners call "tip of the spear" posts.

"Typically a new sailor is trained for a couple of years in a skill, and then when he gets his first assignment at sea it's something like cooking in the mess," said 7th Fleet spokesman Cmdr. Scott Gureck. "This allows more people to do what they signed up to do."

The program is patterned after the use of mainly civilian crews on supply ships, tankers, tug boats and other vessels in what is called the Military Sealift Command. One of the command's main missions is to position dozens of ships off the shores of troublespots around the world to supply military operations.

"More than 100 ships combine sailors and federal service employees," said Coronado Capt. Chris Noble.
But the use of civilians on warships challenges some deep traditions.
Coronado Master Chief Bill Porter noted that, unlike merchant marine ships, the Navy has to plan for the possibility that crewmembers may be killed in combat, and have crew ready on board to act as a backup. For that reason, officials say they do not plan to send the leaner, mixed crews on combat missions.

"The Navy has some fat built in by design," Porter said. "The end product may be that this is not efficient for every ship in the Navy. It's not so much can we reduce our manning, but should we."

Noble acknowledged the program was, in part, the result of a "a business discussion."
"We are always looking for ways to improve," he said. "This may be one of them."
Noble added that the presence of the civilians, who have brought up the crew's average age significantly, has changed the general feeling onboard.

"I've had people with type II diabetes, heart attacks, a pacemaker," he said. "As long as you're able-bodied, you can be a civilian mariner."

Even so, Noble stressed that although the pilot program is still underway, he believes the arrangement has already shown great potential.

"It's a whole different culture," he said. "But it feels right."




Joe March, Director
National Public Relations
The American Legion

[Keith_Hixson]

If the Navy was smart, they'd break away from traditional staffing methods and use the techniques of the civilians. Pay their chiefs good wages to retain, etc. But, as long as they are in the old school mind set, things will never improve.

Keith

[Dragon Lady]

Okay,

Even in peacetime there are incidents and accidents. So we don't send one of these ships to a war zone, what's to say a sneak attack doesn't occur...USS Stark, and there was another where the little rubber raft got real close to a ship and blew itself and part of the ship.

So what kind of insurance do they have? There's not an insurance company in this country that is going to give reasonable life insurance rates to someone in that position. What kind of pay do they get? A whole hell of a lot better than what my husband brings home.

I'm with Keith, pay the Chiefs a decent wage! That's the only way you will keep the Salt of the Navy.

Several years ago I did a research paper for one of my college classes on the feasible economics of the base closings. At that time Congress was stating that the only way to save money would be to close several bases, which they did. However, I was able to show that although in the long run it was better; it was worse in the short term for the military financially. And worse on the economy of the surrounding communities and the States in general. I used the closing of a base in California as a case in point. The community surrounding the base could not find jobs for the civilians who were let go base. This put undue hardship on their families. The soldiers that were reassigned to other bases suddenly found that they had to sell houses in a market that was flooded which drove prices into the basement. good news for buyers, bad news for sellers. To compensate for the loss, the military was paying each home owner the difference between the price they received for the sale and the actual fair market value, which since the market tanked wasn't a whole heck of a lot.
Then there was a whole 'nother issue...what about the base property. In the case of Williams AFB, at the time, the worlds largest pilot training base, the news wasn't good for a long time. The officer's family quarters didn't meet the county's and the state's minimum requirements for public housing. It was good enough for our military's officers and their families but it didn't meet the mark for people without jobs. Then there was the bachelors barracks. They tried to turn this part of the base into some type of correctional facility, aka prison. The barracks were deemed "substandard"!

Oh, did I mention that just the year prior to closing Willey that the AF had spent in the neighborhood of over $1 million to build a new CBPO building and a new commissary?

In the end the majority of the property was sold to Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix to be used as a cargo over-flow airstrip. Now it is one of the busiest cargo airports in the US.
While they were trying to get all that settled the EPA was doing it's thing...test soil and ground water. The area surrounding the fighter hangers on the south side of the base was claimed to be a ecological hot spot and was added to the Super Fund list of clean up sites. They decided it was best to cover it under an 8" thick layer of asphalt instead.
In the end it cost the military an enormous amount of money to close even one base. I can only imagine what the total was from the base closures that occurred from 1988-2000.

But they are cutting costs! Uh huh...and I am Groucho Marx!

[Boats]

DMZ,

I agree peacetime Navy suc_s big time. They go back to the petty BS and unless you are at sea you get bored real fast.

The Navy does train us well - I'm proof of that so I owe them.

Civies have always been on ship at one time or another. If you are breaking in new equipment just developed they sometime tag along if not for the whole cruise to be there in case the almighty equipment takes a dump.

When we did nukes the civies were they to ensure assembly procedure protocols were implemented.

High tech moves fast and the training sometimes has to be on the fly or OTJT (on the job training). All services have these provisions for civies to be around especially if they are the developers or designers.

[kmac7847]

You know regarless of wartime or peacetime whom ever mans our ship and vessels take the risk of personal injury or death.It appears to me that if civilians can man of vessels and save money why not, I served on two ddg's and a YTB seems too much time was wasted on polishing brass and painting paint haze gray.
what a waste of time and man power

[Dragon Lady]

Not really kmac. Sea water is extremely corrosive and "polishing the brass" keeps it from corroding so does painting. All you need is one small sliver of paint missing and that rust gets a good hold. Next thing you know, they'll have to replace expensive parts that take a whole lot more time to r&r. In the big picture it really isn't a waste except to the crewmember doing the polishing and painting.

[Boats]

The hardest work I ever did was in dry dock. I was awe struck by the enormity of the vessel when in dry dock. I was amazed on how they would cut huge holes in the sides of ships to install large equipment then weld them back up.

I was also amazed that how much stuff is dumped over the side before going into dry dock. The ocean reeks of wealth from this non-recycling process.

I thought flight ops were rough but during dry dock and trying to makde turnaround schedules to get back to the line - it was totally overwhelming to see how much time - money and effort goes into making a ship ready for sea.