How John Kerry Helped Hanoi Jane During JFK's Vietnam War! Kerry Call Viet Vets' "Baby killers" JFK - His Hero - Started The War!

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:08:47 -0500, "Engineer"
wrote:

>"Patrick t." wrote in message
>news:tg0120523h8p7qfhb4emanp29k6c4vc8ue@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:09:09 -0500, "Engineer"
>> wrote:
>> >And, as I understand it, they're (choppers that is) much harder to fly.
>> Yea, thats why you can go to the local hobby shop and buy a remote
>> controlled helicopter. Do they sell jets at yours?
>>
>
>I watched a show on the History channel that showed a remote
>controlled model jet that went 200mph. That would be a hoot.
>
>Engineer
>
I was dir of satellite services at a company in San Diego and they
were doing the video for a teledyne ryan drone for the Navy that was
unreal back in the 80's. I was watching some of the testing going on
and that weekend went to a flea market in Oceanside.

Some guy had a huge tugboat (model and remote controlled) for sale for
about $1500, I mean this thing was a monster. I asked my boss if he
would buy it for me so we could mount a camera and a microwave link in
it. He said too much was on the plate at the moment, but I always
regret not having a chance to play with that thing. Now cameras are
peanuts, but back then they were pretty costly affairs.

"Engineer" wrote:
>"Doug Reese" wrote in message > >
>> >How many hours of jet fighter time do you have?
>> >
>> >Any?
>> >LZ
>>
>> Gee, you got me there. But, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't fly all that
>> long.
>>
>> Then again, I have quite a bit of time in helicopters -- all of which were in a
>> combat zone, as opposed to however many hours he spent in a jet in Texas.
>>
>
>And, as I understand it, they're (choppers that is) much harder to fly.

Especially from where I was sitting!

Doug

>Engineer
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Perry wrote:
>On 04 Feb 2004 04:41:54 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:
>
>>Lone Haranguer wrote:
>>>Doug Reese wrote:
>>>
>>>> Horvath wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:58:04 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>>>>> wrote this crap:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>gee, arnie, just what are you trying to say?
>>>>>>that kerry was a politically and morally in step with the rest of the
>>>>>>country during the vietnam war, which was rightly recognized as an immoral
>>>>>>quagmire at the time?
>>>>>>meanwhile, dubya was about halfway into his 40 year alchohol and cocaine
>>>>>>binge and missed that whole vietnam thingy.
>>>>>
>>>>>How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>>>binge?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He didn't fly for all that long, actually.
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>
>>>How many hours of jet fighter time do you have?
>>>
>>>Any?
>>>LZ
>>
>>Gee, you got me there. But, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't fly all that
>>long.
>>
>>Then again, I have quite a bit of time in helicopters -- all of which were in a
>>combat zone, as opposed to however many hours he spent in a jet in Texas.
>>
>>Doug
>>
>>
>>
>ok one who knows all, how many hours did he have in a F102. you claim
>to know so why not tell us.

Don't have a clue. I do know that he actually flew in the Guard from the spring of
1970 till the spring of 1972.

Doug

"Horvath" wrote
> How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
> binge?

apparently, he didn't.

Why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as Senator
John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
Computer records show last physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR
MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.

During his fifth year as a guardsman, Bush's records show no sign he
appeared for duty.

May 24, 1972: Bush, who has moved to Alabama to work on a US Senate race,
gets permission to serve with a reserve unit in Alabama. But headquarters
decided Bush must serve with a more active unit.

Sept. 5, 1972: Bush is granted permission to do his Guard duty at the 187th
Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. But Bush's record shows no evidence he
did the duty, and the unit commander says he never showed up.

November 1972 to April 30, 1973: Bush returns to Houston, but apparently not
to his Air Force unit.

May 2, 1973: The two lieutenant colonels in charge of Bush's unit in Houston
cannot rate him for the prior 12 months, saying he has not been at the unit
in that period.

May to July 1973: Bush, after special orders are issued for him to report
for duty, logs 36 days of duty.

July 30, 1973: His last day in uniform, according to his records.

On 04 Feb 2004 1710 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:

>Perry wrote:
>>On 04 Feb 2004 04:41:54 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:
>>
>>>Lone Haranguer wrote:
>>>>Doug Reese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Horvath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:58:04 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>>>>>> wrote this crap:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>gee, arnie, just what are you trying to say?
>>>>>>>that kerry was a politically and morally in step with the rest of the
>>>>>>>country during the vietnam war, which was rightly recognized as an immoral
>>>>>>>quagmire at the time?
>>>>>>>meanwhile, dubya was about halfway into his 40 year alchohol and cocaine
>>>>>>>binge and missed that whole vietnam thingy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>>>>binge?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He didn't fly for all that long, actually.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>>How many hours of jet fighter time do you have?
>>>>
>>>>Any?
>>>>LZ
>>>
>>>Gee, you got me there. But, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't fly all that
>>>long.
>>>
>>>Then again, I have quite a bit of time in helicopters -- all of which were in a
>>>combat zone, as opposed to however many hours he spent in a jet in Texas.
>>>
>>>Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>ok one who knows all, how many hours did he have in a F102. you claim
>>to know so why not tell us.
>
>Don't have a clue. I do know that he actually flew in the Guard from the spring of
>1970 till the spring of 1972.
>
>Doug
>
>
no I don't just answer the question.

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:04:28 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
wrote:

>"Horvath" wrote
>> How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>> binge?
>
>apparently, he didn't.
>
>Why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as Senator
>John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
>Computer records show last physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR
>MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.
>
>During his fifth year as a guardsman, Bush's records show no sign he
>appeared for duty.
>
>May 24, 1972: Bush, who has moved to Alabama to work on a US Senate race,
>gets permission to serve with a reserve unit in Alabama. But headquarters
>decided Bush must serve with a more active unit.
>
>Sept. 5, 1972: Bush is granted permission to do his Guard duty at the 187th
>Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. But Bush's record shows no evidence he
>did the duty, and the unit commander says he never showed up.
>
>November 1972 to April 30, 1973: Bush returns to Houston, but apparently not
>to his Air Force unit.
>
>May 2, 1973: The two lieutenant colonels in charge of Bush's unit in Houston
>cannot rate him for the prior 12 months, saying he has not been at the unit
>in that period.
>
>May to July 1973: Bush, after special orders are issued for him to report
>for duty, logs 36 days of duty.
>
>July 30, 1973: His last day in uniform, according to his records.
>
>
wrong.

http://www2.georgemag.com/bush.html
The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL,
Either
By Peter Keating and Karthik Thyagarajan

For more than a year, controversy about George W. Bush's Air National
Guard record has bubbled through the press. Interest in the topic has
spiked in recent days, as at least two websites have launched stories
essentially calling Bush AWOL in 1972 and 1973. For example, in
"Finally, the Truth about Bush's Military Record" on TomPaine.com,
Marty Heldt writes, "Bush's long absence from the records comes to an
end one week after he failed to comply with an order to attend 'Annual
Active Duty Training' starting at the end of May 1973... Nothing
indicates in the records that he ever made up the time he missed." And
in Bush's Military Record Reveals Grounding and Absence for Two Full
Years" on Democrats.com, Robert A. Rogers states: "Bush never actually
reported in person for the last two years of his service - in direct
violation of two separate written orders."
Neither is correct.
It's time to set the record straight. The following analysis, which
relies on National Guard documents, extensive interviews with military
officials and previously unpublished evidence of Bush's whereabouts in
the summer and fall of 1972, is the first full chronology of Bush's
military record. Its basic conclusions: Bush may have received
favorable treatment to get into the Guard, served irregularly after
the spring of 1972 and got an expedited discharge, but he did
accumulate the days of service required of him for his ultimate
honorable discharge.
At the Republican convention in Philadelphia, George W. Bush declared:
"Our military is low on parts, pay and morale. If called on by the
commander-in-chief today, two entire divisions of the Army would have
to report, 'Not ready for duty, sir.'" Bush says he is the candidate
who can "rebuild our military and prepare our armed forces for the
future." On what direct military experience does he make such claims?
George W. Bush applied to join the Texas Air National Guard on May 27,
1968, less than two weeks before he graduated from Yale University.
The country was at war in Vietnam, and at that time, just months after
the bloody Tet Offensive, an estimated 100,000 Americans were on
waiting lists to join Guard units across the country. Bush was sworn
in on the day he applied.
Ben Barnes, former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives,
stated in September 1999 that in late 1967 or early 1968, he asked a
senior official in the Texas Air National Guard to help Bush get into
the Guard as a pilot. Barnes said he did so at the behest of Sidney
Adger, a Houston businessman and friend of former President George H.
W. Bush, then a Texas congressman. Despite Barnes's admission, former
President Bush has denied pulling strings for his son, and retired
Colonel Walter Staudt, George W. Bush's first commander, insists:
"There was no special treatment."
The younger Bush fulfilled two years of active duty and completed
pilot training in June 1970. During that time and in the two years
that followed, Bush flew the F-102, an interceptor jet equipped with
heat-seeking missiles that could shoot down enemy planes. His
commanding officers and peers regarded Bush as a competent pilot and
enthusiastic Guard member. In March 1970, the Texas Air National Guard
issued a press release trumpeting his performance: "Lt. Bush recently
became the first Houston pilot to be trained by the 147th [Fighter
Group] and to solo in the F-102... Lt. Bush said his father was just
as excited and enthusiastic about his solo flight as he was." In
Bush's evaluation for the period May 1, 1971 through April 30, 1972,
then-Colonel Bobby Hodges, his commanding officer, stated, "I have
personally observed his participation, and without exception, his
performance has been noteworthy." In the spring of 1972, however,
National Guard records show a sudden dropoff in Bush's military
activity. Though trained as a pilot at considerable government
expense, Bush stopped flying in April 1972 and never flew for the
Guard again.
Around that time, Bush decided to go to work for Winton "Red" Blount,
a Republican running for the U.S. Senate, in Alabama. Documents from
Ellington Air Force Base in Houston state that Bush "cleared this base
on 15 May." Shortly afterward, he applied for assignment to the 9921st
Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala., a unit that required minimal
duty and offered no pay. Although that unit's commander was willing to
welcome him, on May 31 higher-ups at the Air Reserve Personnel Center
in Denver rejected Bush's request to serve at the 9921st, because it
did not offer duty equivalent to his service in Texas. "[A]n obligated
Reservist [in this case, Bush] can be assigned to a specific Ready
Reserve position only," noted the disapproval memo, a copy of which
was sent to Bush. "Therefore, he is ineligible for assignment to an
Air Reserve Squadron."
Despite the military's decision, Bush moved to Alabama. Records
obtained by Georegemag.com show that the Blount Senate campaign paid
Bush about $900 a month from mid-May through mid-November to do
advance work and organize events. Neither Bush's annual evaluation nor
the Air National Guard's overall chronological listing of his service
contain any evidence that he performed Guard duties during that
summer.
On or around his 27th birthday, July 6, 1972, Bush did not take his
required annual medical exam at his Texas unit. As a consequence, he
was suspended from flying military jets. Bush spokesperson Dan
Bartlett told Georgemag.com: "You take that exam because you are
flying, and he was not flying. The paperwork uses the phrase
'suspended from flying,' but he had no intention of flying at that
time."
Some media reports have speculated that Bush took and failed his
physical, or that he was grounded as a result of substance abuse.
Bush's vagueness on the subject of his past drug use has only abetted
such rumors. Bush's commanding officer in Texas, however, denies the
charges. "His flying status was suspended because he didn't take the
exam,not because he couldn't pass," says Hodges. Asked whether Bush
was ever disciplined for using alcohol or illicit drugs, Hodges
replied: "No."
On September 5, Bush wrote to then-Colonel Jerry Killian at his
original unit in Texas, requesting permission to serve with the 187th
Tactical Reconnaisance Group, another Alabama-based unit. "This duty
would be for the months of September, October, and November," wrote
Bush.
This time his request was approved: 10 days later, the Alabama Guard
ordered Bush to report to then-Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed
at Dannelly Air Force Base in Montgomery on October 7th and 8th. The
memo noted that "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy his
flight requirements with our group," since the 187th did not fly
F-102s.
The question of whether Bush ever actually served in Alabama has
become an issue in the 2000 campaign-the Air Force Times recently
reported that "the GOP is trying to locate people who served with Bush
in late 1972 ... to see if they can confirm that Bush briefly served
with the Alabama Air National Guard." Bush's records contain no
evidence that he reported to Dannelly in October. And in telephone
interviews with Georgemag.com, neither Turnipseed, Bush's commanding
officer, nor Kenneth Lott, then chief personnel officer of the 187th,
remembered Bush serving with their unit. "I don't think he showed up,"
Turnipseed said.
Bush maintains he did serve in Alabama. "Governor Bush specifically
remembers pulling duty in Montgomery and respectfully disagrees with
the Colonel," says Bartlett. "There's no question it wasn't memorable,
because he wasn't flying." In July, the Decatur Daily reported that
two former Blount campaign workers recall Bush serving in the Alabama
Air National Guard in the fall of 1972. "I remember he actually came
back to Alabama for about a week to 10 days several weeks after the
campaign was over to complete his Guard duty in the state," stated
Emily Martin, a former Alabama resident who said she dated Bush during
the time he spent in that state.
After the 1972 election, which Blount lost, Bush moved back to Houston
and subsequently began working at P.U.L.L., a community service center
for disadvantaged youths. This period of time has also become a matter
of controversy, because even though Bush's original unit had been
placed on alert duty in October 1972, his superiors in Texas lost
track of his whereabouts. On May 2, 1973, Bush's squadron leader in
the 147th, Lieutenant Colonel William Harris, Jr. wrote: "Lt. Bush has
not been observed at this unit" for the past year. Harris incorrectly
assumed that Bush had been reporting for duty in Alabama all along. He
wrote that Bush "has been performing equivalent training in a
non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base,
Alabama." Base commander Hodges says of Bush's return to Texas: "All I
remember is someone saying he came back and made up his days."
Two documents obtained by Georgemag.com indicate that Bush did make up
the time he missed during the summer and autumn of 1972. One is an
April 23, 1973 order for Bush to report to annual active duty training
the following month; the other is an Air National Guard statement of
days served by Bush that is torn and undated but contains entries that
correspond to the first. Taken together, they appear to establish that
Bush reported for duty on nine occasions between November 29,
1972-when he could have been in Alabama-and May 24, 1973. Bush still
wasn't flying, but over this span, he did earn nine points of National
Guard service from days of active duty and 32 from inactive duty. When
added to the 15 so-called "gratuitous" points that every member of the
Guard got per year, Bush accumulated 56 points, more than the 50 that
he needed by the end of May 1973 to maintain his standing as a
Guardsman.
On May 1, Bush was ordered to report for further active duty training,
and documents show that he proceeded to cram in another 10 sessions
over the next two months. Ultimately, he racked up 19 active duty
points of service and 16 inactive duty points by July 30-which, added
to his 15 gratuitous points, achieved the requisite total of 50 for
the year ending in May 1974.
On October 1, 1973, First Lieutenant George W. Bush received an early
honorable discharge so that he could attend Harvard Business School.
He was credited with five years, four months and five days of service
toward his six-year service obligation. April: Bush's last reported
flying mission.
May 15: Bush clears Ellington AFB.
May 24: Bush applies to 9921st Reserve Squadron, AL.
View documentation
May 27: 9921st approves application, welcomes Bush.
View documentation
May 31: Air Reserve Personnel Center denies application.
View documentation
August 1: Bush flight suspension due to "failure to accomplish medical
exam."
View documentation
September 5: Bush applies for 3-month duty at 187th Tac Recon, AL.
View documentation
September 15: 187th approves Bush's application.
View documentation
November-May (1973):
Record of Bush service: 56 points.
View documentationApril 23: Texas ANG orders Bush to attend annual
active duty training.
View documentation
April 30: Ellington AFB unable to evaluate Bush.
View documentationMay-July: Record of Bush service: 50 points.
View documentation
October 1: Bush granted early honorable discharge.
View documentation
Chronological listing of Bush's service.
View documentation




Bush's stint in Guard scrutinized
Flier avoided battle but favoritism denied
07/04/99
By Pete Slover and George Kuempel / The Dallas Morning News AUSTIN -
With the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old George W. Bush wanted to join
the Texas Air National Guard in 1968. He offered no aviation
experience but cited his work as a ranch hand, oil field "roustabout"
and sporting goods salesman.
He passed the written test required for pilot trainees. Among the
results:
He showed below-average potential as a would-be flier but scored high
as a future leader.
Although Mr. Bush's unit in Texas had a waiting list for many spots,
he was accepted because he was one of a handful of applicants willing
and qualified to spend more than a year in active training, and extra
shifts after training, flying single-seat F-102 fighter jets. Once he
was in, Guard officials sought to capitalize on his standing as the
son of a congressman.
A 1970 Guard news release featured Mr. Bush as "one member of our
younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or
speed. "On, he gets high, all right, but not from narcotics," it
said. "Fighters are it," Mr. Bush is quoted as saying. "I've always
wanted to be a fighter pilot, and I wouldn't want to fly anything
else." Such are the details that emerge from a review of Mr. Bush's
service record by The Dallas Morning News, along with interviews with
Guard leaders, former colleagues and state officials familiar with
that unit. Mr. Bush, 52, now the Republican front-runner for
president, has repeatedly denied suggestions by political rivals that
he received preferential treatment to get into the Guard - widely seen
as a haven from which enlistees were unlikely to be shipped to
Vietnam. As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed
to his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard
pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called.
"There was no special treatment," he said. Mr. Bush said he took
flying seriously. "You will die in your airplane if you didn't
practice, and I wasn't interested in dying," he said. Records
provided to The News by Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air
National Guard, show that the unit Mr. Bush signed up for was not
filled. In mid-1968, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, based in
Houston, had 156 openings among its authorized staff of 925 military
personnel. Of those, 26 openings were for officer slots, such as that
filled by Mr. Bush, and 130 were for enlisted men and women. Also,
several former Air Force pilots who served in the unit said that they
were recruited from elsewhere to fly for the Texas Guard.
Officers who supervised Mr. Bush and approved his admission to the
Guard said they were never contacted by anyone on Mr. Bush's behalf.
"He didn't have any strings pulled, because there weren't any strings
to pull," said Leroy Thompson of Brownwood, who commanded the squadron
that kept the waiting list for the guard at Ellington Air Force Base.
"Our practices were under incredible scrutiny then. It was a very
ticklish time."
Fellow members of the Bush unit said they knew of his background.
U.S. Rep. George Bush was at his son's side when he was made an
officer in the Guard. The elder Mr. Bush, a former World War II pilot,
later spoke at his son's graduation from flight school.
David Hanifl of La Crescent, Minn., an Air Force regular who went
through pilot training in Georgia with George W. Bush, said the flight
instructors were eager to fly with the Texan.
"He didn't get any preferential treatment, but some of the instructors
liked the idea of scheduling him to fly with them because of his
connections," he said.
Mr. Hanifl said it was somewhat unusual for a Guardsman to be included
in the flight class with Air Force regulars. "You had to have clout
to get that type of assignment," he said. He added that Mr. Bush was a
good pilot and did not seek any favors. Also getting into the Bush
unit in 1968 was Lloyd Bentsen III, a recent graduate of Stanford
University business school whose father was a former congressman later
elected Democratic U.S. senator from Texas.
The waiting list
According to several former officers, the openings in the unit were
filled from a waiting list kept in the base safe of Rufus G. Martin,
then an Air National Guard personnel officer.
In a recent interview, Mr. Martin of San Antonio said the list was
kept on computer and in a bound volume, which was periodically
inspected by outside agencies to make sure the list was kept properly.
Mr. Bush said he sought the Guard position on his own, before
graduating from Yale University in 1968. He personally met with Col.
Walter B. Staudt, commander of the 147th group.
In an interview, Mr. Bush said he walked into Col. Staudt's Houston
office and told him he wanted to be a fighter pilot. "He told me they
were looking for pilots," Mr. Bush said. He said he was told that
there were five or six flying slots available, and he got one of them.
While Guard slots generally were coveted, pilot positions required
superior education, physical fitness and the willingness to spend more
than a year in full-time training.
"If somebody like that came along, you'd snatch them up," said the
former commander, who retired as a general. "He took no advantage. It
wouldn't have made any difference whether his daddy was chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
Bobby Hodges, the group's operations officer, and others familiar with
Guard rules said Mr. Bush made it to the top of the short list of
candidates who could pass both the written officer test and a rigorous
flight physical to qualify for the three to four annual pilot training
"quotas" allotted to the unit.
Mr. Hodges and Gen. Staudt are the two surviving members of the
military panel that reviewed and approved Mr. Bush's officer
commission. Most of those wanting to get into the Guard at that time,
they said, didn't want to put in the full year of active service that
was required to become a pilot.
Pilot aptitude test
Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after
inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force
recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test
required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot
aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile,
the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.
Ralph J. Ianuzzi, a newly minted Air Force captain, supervised
administration of the test and signed Mr. Bush's score sheet, an event
of which he had no recollection.
The pilot portion of the exam included tasks such as identifying the
angle of a plane in flight after being shown the view from the cockpit
and figuring out which way a gear in a machine would turn in response
to another gear's being turned.
"That score for pilot seems low. I made that, and I'm dyslexic," Mr.
Ianuzzi, a retired FBI agent who never earned his wings but said it
was significant that Mr. Bush did. "He passed the most important test.
He flew the plane."
On the "officer quality section," designed to measure intangible
traits such as leadership, Mr. Bush scored better than 95 percent of
those taking the test.
It's impossible to compare Mr. Bush's score on the test to scores of
other pilot candidates, because Air Force historians say no records
survive of average scores for those accepted to pilot training.
Pilot training
After completing basic training in San Antonio in August 1968, he
helped out aircraft mechanics at Ellington until that November, when a
pilot-training slot came open.
He was promoted to second lieutenant and began a 13-month pilot
training program at Moody Air Force Base, in Georgia. He was the only
Guardsman among the 70 or so officers from other branches of the
military who began the training.
Under the terms of his contract with the military, if Mr. Bush had
failed to complete pilot school, he would have been required to serve
the Guard in some other capacity, to enter the draft, or to enlist in
another branch of the military.
After passing flight training, Mr. Bush was schooled for several more
months at Ellington, and in March 1970 began flying "alerts," the name
used to describe the 147th's mission of guarding gulf coast borders
against foreign attack.
In those days, the 147th kept at least two fighters ready to scramble,
round-the-clock, guarding Texas oil fields and refineries against
airstrikes.
"It's kind of a non-threatening way to do your military, get paid well
for some long shifts, and feel good about your own involvement," said
Douglas W. Solberg, now an airline pilot, offering his reasons for
joining the 147th and serving with Mr. Bush after an Air Force flying
stint. "It was a cushy way to be a patriot."
A former non-commissioned officer who worked on planes and supervised
other ground crews at Ellington said Mr. Bush was not a silver-spoon
snob or elitist, unlike some former Air Force fliers. "I remember him
coming down, kicking the tires, washing the windows, whatever," said
Joe H. Briggs, now of Houston. 'I'm probably one of the few people
around who'll admit I voted for Clinton. But I'll pull for this guy
for president."
No overseas duty
Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be checked
specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas duty. His
includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer for such an
assignment.
But several personnel officers said that part of the application for
domestic Guard units routinely would be filled out that way by a clerk
typist, then given to the applicant to sign. Mr. Bush has said that
he signed up for but lacked the number of flying hours to participate
in a program called the Palace Alert, which eventually rotated nine
pilots from his unit into duty in Southeast Asia from 1969 to 1970.
His signup and willingness to participate was confirmed by several of
his
colleagues and superiors, who remembered the effort as brash but
admirable.
"The more experienced pilots were shaking their heads, saying, 'He
doesn't even know where to park the planes,' " said Albert C. Lloyd,
then head of personnel for the Texas Air National Guard. Some
attention has also focused on Mr. Bush's departure from the service.
Under his original oath, he was obligated to serve in the Guard until
May 1974. Instead, he was allowed to leave in October 1973 to attend
Harvard Business School.
Former Guard officials and members of Mr. Bush's unit said that
release, seven months early, was not unusual for the Guard. Mr. Bush's
unit was changing airplanes at the time, from the single-seat F-102 to
the dual-seat F-101. They said it made little sense to retrain him for
just a few months' service, and letting him go freed spots for the
Guard to recruit F-101 pilots from the Air Force and elsewhere.

On 04 Feb 2004 1710 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:

>Perry wrote:
>>On 04 Feb 2004 04:41:54 GMT, Doug Reese wrote:
>>
>>>Lone Haranguer wrote:
>>>>Doug Reese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Horvath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:58:04 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
>>>>>> wrote this crap:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>gee, arnie, just what are you trying to say?
>>>>>>>that kerry was a politically and morally in step with the rest of the
>>>>>>>country during the vietnam war, which was rightly recognized as an immoral
>>>>>>>quagmire at the time?
>>>>>>>meanwhile, dubya was about halfway into his 40 year alchohol and cocaine
>>>>>>>binge and missed that whole vietnam thingy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>>>>>>binge?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He didn't fly for all that long, actually.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>>How many hours of jet fighter time do you have?
>>>>
>>>>Any?
>>>>LZ
>>>
>>>Gee, you got me there. But, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't fly all that
>>>long.
>>>
>>>Then again, I have quite a bit of time in helicopters -- all of which were in a
>>>combat zone, as opposed to however many hours he spent in a jet in Texas.
>>>
>>>Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>ok one who knows all, how many hours did he have in a F102. you claim
>>to know so why not tell us.
>
>Don't have a clue. I do know that he actually flew in the Guard from the spring of
>1970 till the spring of 1972.
>
>Doug
>
>
don't forget the time he also flew while undergoing Air force flight
training. He was on active duty close to two years.

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:04:28 -0000, "Luis ORTEGA"
wrote:

>"Horvath" wrote
>> How did he fly fighter planes if he was on a alcohol and cocaine
>> binge?
>
>apparently, he didn't.
>
>Why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as Senator
>John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
>Computer records show last physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR
>MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.
Could you be so kind as to post ALL of your military records here for
us on a.w.v. thank you.

"Gomer" wrote
> The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL,
> Either
> By Peter Keating and Karthik Thyagarajan
> For more than a year, controversy about George W. Bush's Air National
> Guard record has bubbled through the press. Interest in the topic has
> spiked in recent days, as at least two websites have launched stories
> essentially calling Bush AWOL in 1972 and 1973.

So, why did the Bush campaign refuse to release his military records, as
Senator
John McCain and Vice President Gore both did during the 2000 campaign?
Obviously, he knows a lot more about his own dereliction of duty than the
two useful idiot apologists who cranked out that story you posted.
It's clear that if bush had a military record that wasn't a complete scandal
he would be wearing it on his lapel instead of trying to hide it.

what's your point, kid?
only a useful idiot would argue that bush's failure to provide his military
records was just a little oversight and that he has nothing to hide.

"Patrick t." wrote
> Could you be so kind as to post ALL of your military records here for
> us on a.w.v. thank you.