VIETNAM SHOULD BAN EATING DOGS, CATS AND WILD ANIMALS......Re: It's a dog's life in Vietnam

Mr Jupiter argued that since all Communist bureaucrats lied, it is
impossible to believe what they said so this thread about economic
growth in Vietnam is a waste of time and of no use because no
accurate data are available

I forcefully disagree:

Let's say that I am a Banker and Mr Jupiter a boatman who wanted to
borrow money to open a Business. He has to prove to me that He has
the 3 C attributes i.e., he has #1, character (credit
worthiness)i.e., He had not stolen , owed anybody money or was in
bankruptcy, #2 Collateral, i.e., an asset like a house or a car in his
name and paid for or at least with enough equity so that it will hurt
him if they were to be taken away from him and #3 cash on hand to
operate the business at the beginning. Having all of that , I will
lend money to Jupiter even if in my heart, I know ALL boatmen are
potentitally thieves.

Many Boatmen overcome this stigma that they were suspected, a
priori, to be thieves and parasites and often rightfully so. They
successfuly overcome this prejudice by proving to lenders they have
the 3 C prerequisites, opened businesses and made a good living for
themselves .

The Vietkong before and at the beginning of Doimoi was like the
Boatman before being tested. He is suspected to stealing, defaulting
before He opened his mouth. He had the propensity to default on loan
i.e., exactly like the typical boatman who does not make House or car
payment. He was slow on payment and sometime he has to ask for loan
rescheduling. Mr Cao Si Kiem their former Central Bank President
travelled full time to reschedule loans in the 1990s. This had
happened many times in the past , much less now but not guaranteed to
do not happen again but The VC had made improvement on loan
payments. His record is not as good as Malaysia's or Thailand's but I
dare say better than Indonesia's and the Philippines's.
Principal creditors such as World Bank, Japan, IMF, Singapore, South
KOrea were not charitable institutions. The reason they keep lending
money year after year is proof enough to El Chino that they get
payment from the Vietkong.
They have full time offices and representatives in Hanoi and Saigon to
make sure that the VC behave.

Next,is Investment a principal component of Growth. the Capitalists
countries invested in Vietnam about 40 billions dollars since Doimoi.
This is the amount ALREADY invested, not the amount promised which is
twice as much.

Singapore whose maximum leader Ly Quan Yew who was claimed by
brainless Boatmen like Trong Luc, Hytran and myriad others to have
said that the Vietkong just wanted to ambush us, capitalists, to
invest in Vietnam then to steal our investment by nationalization or
outright confiscation, was actually the first to recommend to his
businessmen to invest in Vietnam since the stone age of Doimoi, i.e.,
pre 1990. Presently Singapore, the hardest of the hard capitalists is
the most important investor in Vietnam with 7.5 Billions USD outlays .
They keep investing now although not at same level as before because
of their own economic difficulty and becaue Vietnam had not made
enough reforms in Transparency in book keepings and had not eliminated
built in advantages of state owned enterprises to make the next level
in capital intensive projects attractive. Once this is done, more
investment from Singapore, Japam and the USA will be forthcoming. The
latest negotiation of the US team in Hanoi last week was about these
Transparancy and protected State Enterprises problems.
I do not deny that the Vietkong Had lied and will try to lie again if
we let him do it just like A Boatman would lie again and again if we
let Him. The principal mission of El Chino on SCV is stop them lying.

Now the World has stardard for honesty and Transparency and the
Vietkong had to abide by them. He who paid the piper will call for
the tune. Last week the World Bank demanded the Vietkong Central Bank
to have an external, independent CPA firm auditing their books is a
case in point.


People like Jupiter, Trongluc, Dimension, Hanh Phuongnam are not
necessarily un-educated but they were blinded by their hate of the
Vietkong. I dare say that they are in deep Acute Denial Syndrome.
They like their Brainless teachers of yesteryear Vu Quoc Thuc, Nguyen
Van Canh, Lam Le Tring, Pham Do Chi etc..ignored completely the
writings of United Nation, World Bank , IMMF, Japanese MITI, Pew
Research , Josepth Stiglitz, Armentia Sen, Us Chamber of Commerce, CIA
facts books prefering to believe in anecdotes concocted by their own
side like this story about Le Quan Yew declined to be the Economic
Advisor to Vietnam nd discouraged Sigaporan Capitalists to invest in
Vietnam. HE PUT HIS MONEY 7. 5 BILLIONS USD , WHERE HIS MOUTH IS
SIRS, BRAINLESS BOATYMEN

I strongly urge the Vietkong to completely ignore these impotent
Boatmen who were characterized by a Vietkong dissident Pham Thi Hoai
of Being Sad and Inoperative penis (Zu+o+ng Va^.t Buo^`n Thiu). They
have no money, no ideas to contribute to development of Vietnam. They
have to influence to stop her development from happening. What they
are engaging now in their Media and on SCV was in a Mass exercise of
Masturbation.




"jupiterean" wrote in message news:...
> "Tran Cao Ky" wrote in message
> news:dbc3e1a7.0308081031.6cca8948@posting.google.c om...
> > According to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/vietnam...en.html#table4
> >
> > Between 1980-1985, VN annual economy growth was 6.4%. Between
> > 1975-1980, the growth rate was 0.4%.
> >
> > With the population increase of probably around 2.5-3% annually, the
> > standard of living is actually down between 1975-1980 by around 2-2.5%
> > each year. However, since 1980, the people standard of living has been
> > improved steadily by around 5% each year (today the annual population
> > increase is about 1.5%, the ecomonic growth is around 6-7%).
> >
> > The worldbank forcasts the growth rate of around 7% is sustainable in
> > the medium term. If the policies are moving along the current line,
> > this growth rate of 7% is sustainable for the next ten years, I
> > believe.
> >
> > Speaking of income distribution, go by the international income
> > inequality index, GINI, Vietnm GINI index for the period between
> > 1990-2001 hovers around 35 - 35.1.
> >
> > While the GINI index for Thailand is around 43.8-46-41-43.1 for the
> > period 1988-2001, Philippines 41 -46 for 1985-2001, Indonesia 30.3 -31
> > for 1984-2002, Malaysia 45.2 -42 for 1984-2001 and interestly China
> > 33.5(1990) to 40.3(1998).
> >
> > Source:
> http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/eap/eap...eduction+&+Int
> ernational+Development+Goals/$File/Poverty_Brief.pdf
> >
> > The lower GINI index means less income disparity. This means Vietnam
> > economic growth has been distributed fairly even amongst all sections
> > of Vietnamese society. Combined this with the significant reduction of
> > poverty, the myth that the economic growth has only benefited the VCP
> > members is simply baseless and untrue. In general, it has benefited a
> > VCP member as much as a poor peasant or a rich merchant,
> > percentage-wise.
>
> I just wonder how they came up with this index for VN. Economic statistics
> are still considered state secrets and generally inaccessible, aren't they ?
> Besides, in a system where bureaucrats are notorious for false reporting to
> impress their superiors, are these numbers really reliable? Just take a look
> around the country and anybody can see the severe income disparity between
> urban and rural areas, between people with connections (either with the
> government or with overseas Viets) and those with none. Those numbers on
> paper cannot beat observed reality.
>
> JoJ

Mr Jupiter argued that since all Communist bureaucrats lied, it is
impossible to believe what they said so this thread about economic
growth in Vietnam is a waste of time and of no use because no
accurate data are available

I forcefully disagree:

Let's say that I am a Banker and Mr Jupiter a boatman who wanted to
borrow money to open a Business. He has to prove to me that He has
the 3 C attributes i.e., he has #1, character (credit
worthiness)i.e., He had not stolen , owed anybody money or was in
bankruptcy, #2 Collateral, i.e., an asset like a house or a car in his
name and paid for or at least with enough equity so that it will hurt
him if they were to be taken away from him and #3 cash on hand to
operate the business at the beginning. Having all of that , I will
lend money to Jupiter even if in my heart, I know ALL boatmen are
potentitally thieves.

Many Boatmen overcome this stigma that they were suspected, a
priori, to be thieves and parasites and often rightfully so. They
successfuly overcome this prejudice by proving to lenders they have
the 3 C prerequisites, opened businesses and made a good living for
themselves .

The Vietkong before and at the beginning of Doimoi was like the
Boatman before being tested. He is suspected to stealing, defaulting
before He opened his mouth. He had the propensity to default on loan
i.e., exactly like the typical boatman who does not make House or car
payment. He was slow on payment and sometime he has to ask for loan
rescheduling. Mr Cao Si Kiem their former Central Bank President
travelled full time to reschedule loans in the 1990s. This had
happened many times in the past , much less now but not guaranteed to
do not happen again but The VC had made improvement on loan
payments. His record is not as good as Malaysia's or Thailand's but I
dare say better than Indonesia's and the Philippines's.
Principal creditors such as World Bank, Japan, IMF, Singapore, South
KOrea were not charitable institutions. The reason they keep lending
money year after year is proof enough to El Chino that they get
payment from the Vietkong.
They have full time offices and representatives in Hanoi and Saigon to
make sure that the VC behave.

Next,is Investment a principal component of Growth. the Capitalists
countries invested in Vietnam about 40 billions dollars since Doimoi.
This is the amount ALREADY invested, not the amount promised which is
twice as much.

Singapore whose maximum leader Ly Quan Yew who was claimed by
brainless Boatmen like Trong Luc, Hytran and myriad others to have
said that the Vietkong just wanted to ambush us, capitalists, to
invest in Vietnam then to steal our investment by nationalization or
outright confiscation, was actually the first to recommend to his
businessmen to invest in Vietnam since the stone age of Doimoi, i.e.,
pre 1990. Presently Singapore, the hardest of the hard capitalists is
the most important investor in Vietnam with 7.5 Billions USD outlays .
They keep investing now although not at same level as before because
of their own economic difficulty and becaue Vietnam had not made
enough reforms in Transparency in book keepings and had not eliminated
built in advantages of state owned enterprises to make the next level
in capital intensive projects attractive. Once this is done, more
investment from Singapore, Japam and the USA will be forthcoming. The
latest negotiation of the US team in Hanoi last week was about these
Transparancy and protected State Enterprises problems.
I do not deny that the Vietkong Had lied and will try to lie again if
we let him do it just like A Boatman would lie again and again if we
let Him. The principal mission of El Chino on SCV is stop them lying.

Now the World has stardard for honesty and Transparency and the
Vietkong had to abide by them. He who paid the piper will call for
the tune. Last week the World Bank demanded the Vietkong Central Bank
to have an external, independent CPA firm auditing their books is a
case in point.


People like Jupiter, Trongluc, Dimension, Hanh Phuongnam are not
necessarily un-educated but they were blinded by their hate of the
Vietkong. I dare say that they are in deep Acute Denial Syndrome.
They like their Brainless teachers of yesteryear Vu Quoc Thuc, Nguyen
Van Canh, Lam Le Tring, Pham Do Chi etc..ignored completely the
writings of United Nation, World Bank , IMMF, Japanese MITI, Pew
Research , Josepth Stiglitz, Armentia Sen, Us Chamber of Commerce, CIA
facts books prefering to believe in anecdotes concocted by their own
side like this story about Le Quan Yew declined to be the Economic
Advisor to Vietnam nd discouraged Sigaporan Capitalists to invest in
Vietnam. HE PUT HIS MONEY 7. 5 BILLIONS USD , WHERE HIS MOUTH IS
SIRS, BRAINLESS BOATYMEN

I strongly urge the Vietkong to completely ignore these impotent
Boatmen who were characterized by a Vietkong dissident Pham Thi Hoai
of Being Sad and Inoperative penis (Zu+o+ng Va^.t Buo^`n Thiu). They
have no money, no ideas to contribute to development of Vietnam. They
have to influence to stop her development from happening. What they
are engaging now in their Media and on SCV was in a Mass exercise of
Masturbation.




"jupiterean" wrote in message news:...
> "Tran Cao Ky" wrote in message
> news:dbc3e1a7.0308081031.6cca8948@posting.google.c om...
> > According to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/vietnam...en.html#table4
> >
> > Between 1980-1985, VN annual economy growth was 6.4%. Between
> > 1975-1980, the growth rate was 0.4%.
> >
> > With the population increase of probably around 2.5-3% annually, the
> > standard of living is actually down between 1975-1980 by around 2-2.5%
> > each year. However, since 1980, the people standard of living has been
> > improved steadily by around 5% each year (today the annual population
> > increase is about 1.5%, the ecomonic growth is around 6-7%).
> >
> > The worldbank forcasts the growth rate of around 7% is sustainable in
> > the medium term. If the policies are moving along the current line,
> > this growth rate of 7% is sustainable for the next ten years, I
> > believe.
> >
> > Speaking of income distribution, go by the international income
> > inequality index, GINI, Vietnm GINI index for the period between
> > 1990-2001 hovers around 35 - 35.1.
> >
> > While the GINI index for Thailand is around 43.8-46-41-43.1 for the
> > period 1988-2001, Philippines 41 -46 for 1985-2001, Indonesia 30.3 -31
> > for 1984-2002, Malaysia 45.2 -42 for 1984-2001 and interestly China
> > 33.5(1990) to 40.3(1998).
>

"Mr Jupiter argued that since all Communist bureaucrats lied, it is
impossible to believe what they said so this thread about economic
growth in Vietnam is a waste of time and of no use because no
accurate data are available

I forcefully disagree:

Let's say that I am a Banker and Mr Jupiter a boatman who wanted to
borrow money to open a Business. He has to prove to me that He has
the 3 C attributes i.e., he has #1, character (credit
worthiness)i.e., He had not stolen , owed anybody money or was in
bankruptcy, #2 Collateral, i.e., an asset like a house or a car in his
name and paid for or at least with enough equity so that it will hurt
him if they were to be taken away from him and #3 cash on hand to
operate the business at the beginning. Having all of that , I will
lend money to Jupiter even if in my heart, I know ALL boatmen are
potentitally thieves.

Many Boatmen overcome this stigma that they were suspected, a
priori, to be thieves and parasites and often rightfully so. They
successfuly overcome this prejudice by proving to lenders they have
the 3 C prerequisites, opened businesses and made a good living for
themselves .

The Vietkong before and at the beginning of Doimoi was like the
Boatman before being tested. He is suspected to stealing, defaulting
before He opened his mouth. He had the propensity to default on loan
i.e., exactly like the typical boatman who does not make House or car
payment. He was slow on payment and sometime he has to ask for loan
rescheduling. Mr Cao Si Kiem their former Central Bank President
travelled full time to reschedule loans in the 1990s. This had
happened many times in the past , much less now but not guaranteed to
do not happen again but The VC had made improvement on loan
payments. His record is not as good as Malaysia's or Thailand's but I
dare say better than Indonesia's and the Philippines's.
Principal creditors such as World Bank, Japan, IMF, Singapore, South
KOrea were not charitable institutions. The reason they keep lending
money year after year is proof enough to El Chino that they get
payment from the Vietkong.
They have full time offices and representatives in Hanoi and Saigon to
make sure that the VC behave.

Next,is Investment a principal component of Growth. the Capitalists
countries invested in Vietnam about 40 billions dollars since Doimoi.
This is the amount ALREADY invested, not the amount promised which is
twice as much.

Singapore whose maximum leader Ly Quan Yew who was claimed by
brainless Boatmen like Trong Luc, Hytran and myriad others to have
said that the Vietkong just wanted to ambush us, capitalists, to
invest in Vietnam then to steal our investment by nationalization or
outright confiscation, was actually the first to recommend to his
businessmen to invest in Vietnam since the stone age of Doimoi, i.e.,
pre 1990. Presently Singapore, the hardest of the hard capitalists is
the most important investor in Vietnam with 7.5 Billions USD outlays .
They keep investing now although not at same level as before because
of their own economic difficulty and becaue Vietnam had not made
enough reforms in Transparency in book keepings and had not eliminated
built in advantages of state owned enterprises to make the next level
in capital intensive projects attractive. Once this is done, more
investment from Singapore, Japam and the USA will be forthcoming. The
latest negotiation of the US team in Hanoi last week was about these
Transparancy and protected State Enterprises problems.
I do not deny that the Vietkong Had lied and will try to lie again if
we let him do it just like A Boatman would lie again and again if we
let Him. The principal mission of El Chino on SCV is stop them lying.

Now the World has stardard for honesty and Transparency and the
Vietkong had to abide by them. He who paid the piper will call for
the tune. Last week the World Bank demanded the Vietkong Central Bank
to have an external, independent CPA firm auditing their books is a
case in point.


People like Jupiter, Trongluc, Dimension, Hanh Phuongnam are not
necessarily un-educated but they were blinded by their hate of the
Vietkong. I dare say that they are in deep Acute Denial Syndrome.
They like their Brainless teachers of yesteryear Vu Quoc Thuc, Nguyen
Van Canh, Lam Le Tring, Pham Do Chi etc..ignored completely the
writings of United Nation, World Bank , IMMF, Japanese MITI, Pew
Research , Josepth Stiglitz, Armentia Sen, Us Chamber of Commerce, CIA
facts books prefering to believe in anecdotes concocted by their own
side like this story about Le Quan Yew declined to be the Economic
Advisor to Vietnam nd discouraged Sigaporan Capitalists to invest in
Vietnam. HE PUT HIS MONEY 7. 5 BILLIONS USD , WHERE HIS MOUTH IS
SIRS, BRAINLESS BOATYMEN

I strongly urge the Vietkong to completely ignore these impotent
Boatmen who were characterized by a Vietkong dissident Pham Thi Hoai
of Being Sad and Inoperative penis (Zu+o+ng Va^.t Buo^`n Thiu). They
have no money, no ideas to contribute to development of Vietnam. They
have to influence to stop her development from happening. What they
are engaging now in their Media and on SCV was in a Mass exercise of
Masturbation.




"jupiterean" wrote in message news:...
> "Tran Cao Ky" wrote in message
> news:dbc3e1a7.0308081031.6cca8948@posting.google.c om...
> > According to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/vietnam...en.html#table4
> >
> > Between 1980-1985, VN annual economy growth was 6.4%. Between
> > 1975-1980, the growth rate was 0.4%.
> >
> > With the population increase of probably around 2.5-3% annually, the
> > standard of living is actually down between 1975-1980 by around 2-2.5%
> > each year. However, since 1980, the people standard of living has been
> > improved steadily by around 5% each year (today the annual population
> > increase is about 1.5%, the ecomonic growth is around 6-7%).
> >
> > The worldbank forcasts the growth rate of around 7% is sustainable in
> > the medium term. If the policies are moving along the current line,
> > this growth rate of 7% is sustainable for the next ten years, I
> > believe.
> >
> > Speaking of income distribution, go by the international income
> > inequality index, GINI, Vietnm GINI index for the period between
> > 1990-2001 hovers around 35 - 35.1.
> >
> > While the GINI index for Thailand is around 43.8-46-41-43.1 for the
> > period 1988-2001, Philippines 41 -46 for 1985-2001, Indonesia 30.3 -31
> > for 1984-2002, Malaysia 45.2 -42 for 1984-2001 and interestly China
> > 33.5(1990) to 40.3(1998).
> >
> > Source:
> http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/eap/eap...eduction+&+Int
> ernational+Development+Goals/$File/Poverty_Brief.pdf
> >
> > The lower GINI index means less income disparity. This means Vietnam
> > economic growth has been distributed fairly even amongst all sections
> > of Vietnamese society. Combined this with the significant reduction of
> > poverty, the myth that the economic growth has only benefited the VCP
> > members is simply baseless and untrue. In general, it has benefited a
> > VCP member as much as a poor peasant or a rich merchant,
> > percentage-wise.
>
> I just wonder how they came up with this index for VN. Economic statistics
> are still considered state secrets and generally inaccessible, aren't they ?
> Besides, in a system where bureaucrats are notorious for false reporting to
> impress their superiors, are these numbers really reliable? Just take a look
> around the country and anybody can see the severe income disparity between
> urban and rural areas, between people with connections (either with the
> government or with overseas Viets) and those with none. Those numbers on
> paper cannot beat observed reality.
>
> JoJ

Perhaps, a bit off the discussion line.

The Vietnam trade ministry website http://www.mot.gov.vn/ has plenty
of up-to-date information on Vietnam trade. I highly recommend this if
you want to investigate further.

The section Thong Ke Thuong Mai has many statistics on current state
of Vietnam economy.

It is pity that not many other VN government websites have much
information as this one (in their respective domains).

"brian turner" wrote in message
news:66dc0679.0308082318.79407b0c@posting.google.c om...
> "jupiterean" wrote in message
news:...
>
> > I just wonder how they came up with this index for VN. Economic
statistics
> > are still considered state secrets and generally inaccessible, aren't
they ?
> >
> > Besides, in a system where bureaucrats are notorious for false reporting
to
> > impress their superiors, are these numbers really reliable? Just take a
look
> > around the country and anybody can see the severe income disparity
between
> > urban and rural areas, between people with connections (either with the
> > government or with overseas Viets) and those with none. Those numbers on
> > paper cannot beat observed reality.
> >
> > JoJ
>
> The government publishes economic information. Economists at the
> World Bank or elsewhere check it for plausibility, both for internal
> logic and how consisent it is with other sources of information, such
> as trade data, observation, interviews about whether incomes are
> rising or falling, etc. It is fairly easy to fudge the numbers,
> inflating them a bit. It is very difficult to completely fabricate
> non-existent output growth. An extreme level of secrecy is necessary
> for that, I mean North Korea level secrecy. And even with them
> certain vague trends can be guessed at.
>
> I doubt deliberate macroeconomic reporting fraud is a big factor (like
> it was in the Brezhnev era Soviet Union), but there are possible
> upward biases in the growth accounting method, for instance if prices
> don't reflect true costs and values; a problem in all economies, but
> more so in ones with a lot of state intervention in prices.

Thank you for the clarification. I was just challenging Mr TCK's claim that
from the GINI it can be concluded that "the myth that the economic growth
has only benefited the VCP members is simply baseless and untrue. In
general, it has benefited a VCP member as much as a poor peasant or a rich
merchant, percentage-wise." Now I'm not well versed in economics, and I
don't know what methodology is used in calculating the GINI. But I am sure
that whatever that methodology is, it certainly doesn't take into account
the "VCP membership" factor. Therefore if VCP members have indeed benefited
from the growth more than other classes, the GINI cannot possibly reflect
that fact. Therefore Mr TCK's conclusion is invalid.

JoJ

Outstanding, El a Communist arguing Economics is
like pissing on his Rice so it tastes better with
out all his teeth.

"fob" wrote in message news:RbHYa.11033$jg.3341332@news1.news.adelphia.ne t...
Well, Viet. Wait until El Chino gets his Satellite up
with a 12 year old girl playing a Polish Piano a up there
in Commie Vietnamese !
Me ? I can't wait.

"VIET THIET" wrote in message news:a9efa7b5.0308071619.7037e6f6@posting.google.c om...
> Dear Brian,
>
> I am sorry for not knowing you have been waiting for answers on this
> subject. Since I don't make a living as an economist, I can only
> answer your quations based on my empirical observations of the
> economic situations in Vietnam, with personal comparisons between now
> and during the war in the 70's.
>
> My position is that the 7% growth rate between 1985 until 1998 is not
> much to call home about. The main reason was that between 1975 and
> 1985, the VC's collectivization policy was a disastrous failure. It
> collapsed the entire economy, taking the entire population of a large
> rice-growing country to the brink of mass starvation. It should not
> take much effort to register growth in the double digit range coming
> up from a totally wrecked economy, mass starvation, or is it?
>
> The GDP per capita in 1985, before Doi Moi was probably $40 if anybody
> in the world cared to measure. I read some reports that it grew to
> $157 in 1991. The point is, growth rate in the 5-7% per-annum range
> back from mass starvation and a completely collapsed economy is
> nothing to be proud about!
>
> My personal observations after touring all over Vietnam from cities to
> country side is that, presently the people of Vietnam is much poorer
> off, even compared to the period when the VC's were waging a war of
> terrorism througout Vietnam during the 70's. Of course the population
> has doubled into 80 millions while the arable land mass remain the
> same (we are not even talking about the territories the VC's stole
> from Laos and Cambodia).
>
> The relative poverty is shown by the cramped housing, the ratios of
> beggars, peddlars, prostitutes, unattended children found on the
> street, and circumstantial clues like the absence of domestic produces
> like sea foods, fruits, vegeatbles etc... which appear to be exported
> for hard currencies. The variety, availability and affordability of
> basic food items appear very good in 2000, due to my observations that
> people in isolated areas were able to assemble quick meals with pork,
> chicken, beef, vegetables ingredients etc...
>
> The relative poverty is shown in the scarcity of finished goods, like
> building materials etc...In most other cities besides Saigon and
> Hanoi, you only have to travel a few miles from the center whenmost of
> the housing are just tiny mud and thatched huts, made from local
> natural materials. That's another aspects of poverty.
>
> If you have any reliable economic data to show, I would be happy to
> correlate them to reality, and to compare them to other contemporary
> countries!
>
> VIETTHIET
>
>
> **********************
> bkt90@hotmail.com (brian turner) wrote in message news:<66dc0679.0308061928.4a70597b@posting.google.com>...
> > VIETTHIET00@YAHOO.COM (VIET THIET) wrote in message news:...
> >
> > [snipped]
> >
> > > The next embarassing thing is the horrible poverty created by the
> > > incompetent and corrupt VCP, which causes total loss of human dignity
> > > and all moral rectitude among the average people.
> >
> > I've asked you this several times in the last couple years, and have
> > not gotten a satisfactory answer.
> >
> > The Vietnamese government did not asked to be embargoed after the war.
> > On the contrary, they tried to join ASEAN and tried to get loans from
> > the IMF and World Bank.
> >
> > 1) What do you think Vietnam's average GNP growth rate was from 1982
> > to today (hint: the economy accelerated after Doi Moi, growth didn't
> > begin then)?
> >
> > 2) Under conditions of involuntary embargo, what *would* have been the
> > growth rate from 1982-current if whatever policies you favor were in
> > place?
> >
> > I stipulate to 2 things -- a) that the economic policies from 1976-80
> > were astoundingly awful b) that GNP growth is not the only, or even
> > most important criteria by which a government should be evaluated.
> > Nevertheless, you repeatedly claim that the Vietnamese government has
> > been an economic failure, and you never say only in the early post-war
> > years, so you must be talking about the entire record. So, let's see
> > some facts supporting your claim. How fast did they grow since 1982,
> > how fast could they have grown realistically? These are straight
> > forward questions. If you have never read such data, then you should
> > be cautious about making such sweeping statements until you have.

"jupiterean" wrote in message news:...

> Thank you for the clarification. I was just challenging Mr TCK's claim that
> from the GINI it can be concluded that "the myth that the economic growth
> has only benefited the VCP members is simply baseless and untrue. In
> general, it has benefited a VCP member as much as a poor peasant or a rich
> merchant, percentage-wise." Now I'm not well versed in economics, and I
> don't know what methodology is used in calculating the GINI. But I am sure
> that whatever that methodology is, it certainly doesn't take into account
> the "VCP membership" factor. Therefore if VCP members have indeed benefited
> from the growth more than other classes, the GINI cannot possibly reflect
> that fact. Therefore Mr TCK's conclusion is invalid.
>
> JoJ


If the Gini coefficient figure is accurate, his point is valid. If
the VCP and friends were capturing a large share of national income,
it would be reflected in a higher Gini coefficient. The only way that
could not be the case is if the number of VCP members, relatives of
VCP members, and friends of VCP members was so small that their income
or wealth (the GC can measure the distribution of anything) would not
impact the total.

The GC measures what share of something each percentile has, and
translates that into a single figure for comparative purposes. It
goes from 0-1. 0 means perfect equality, or everyone has identical
amounts; 1 means perfect inequality, or one person has everything.
The highest I've ever heard of is Brazil, who was once around 0.65
(don't know if they still are or not). I think that's for wealth.

News from insiders' of the VCP confirm that the distribution of wealth
is definitely confined mostly within the powerful politburo members
and their families!

These powerful men do not have to engage in any business. As
everything in Vietnam is tightly controlled by the Communist Party,
the powerful people are the ones who benefits, most times very
indirectly by kick backs and briberies. I personally know a few
people who make a lot of profit thansk to privileges and special
treaments by government officials.

The population has benefited from international businesses in terms of
low paying jobs and revenues from sevices in the tourism trade. They
are however subjected to extremely heavy taxes and very tough
competition from state-owned enterprises who are naturally favored by
local government and party officials. I have seen very nice
government-owned hotels in Vietnam advertising $37 room which is also
the minimum hotel tax rate. The private hotels with less capital find
it tough to compete. Many of the foreign tours make it a point never
to book with government-owned hotels, but to patronize private hotels
even though they are lower in quality!

An example of the extreme inequality in Vietnam, you should see old
VC's with buck teeth and heavy accent, ordering 4 bottles of $300
Cognacs, groping a bunch of young girls in disco. Apprently this is
so commonplace nobody even notices. Official VN statistics shows over
90% clients of Vietnamese prostitutes are government officials.

The VC's with power and money do rule Vietnam

VIETTHIET

*************************************
bkt90@hotmail.com (brian turner) wrote in message
>
> I have criticisms of the distribution of the benefit of the growth,
> the composition of it, its long term sustainability, and the
> corruption it brings with it; yet as far as output growth, it is
> impressive by comparative standards.
>

"brian turner" wrote in message
news:66dc0679.0308092318.1f227e36@posting.google.c om...
> "jupiterean" wrote in message
news:...
>
> > Thank you for the clarification. I was just challenging Mr TCK's claim
that
> > from the GINI it can be concluded that "the myth that the economic
growth
> > has only benefited the VCP members is simply baseless and untrue. In
> > general, it has benefited a VCP member as much as a poor peasant or a
rich
> > merchant, percentage-wise." Now I'm not well versed in economics, and I
> > don't know what methodology is used in calculating the GINI. But I am
sure
> > that whatever that methodology is, it certainly doesn't take into
account
> > the "VCP membership" factor. Therefore if VCP members have indeed
benefited
> > from the growth more than other classes, the GINI cannot possibly
reflect
> > that fact. Therefore Mr TCK's conclusion is invalid.
> >
> > JoJ
>
>
> If the Gini coefficient figure is accurate, his point is valid. If
> the VCP and friends were capturing a large share of national income,
> it would be reflected in a higher Gini coefficient. The only way that
> could not be the case is if the number of VCP members, relatives of
> VCP members, and friends of VCP members was so small that their income
> or wealth (the GC can measure the distribution of anything) would not
> impact the total.
>
> The GC measures what share of something each percentile has, and
> translates that into a single figure for comparative purposes. It
> goes from 0-1. 0 means perfect equality, or everyone has identical
> amounts; 1 means perfect inequality, or one person has everything.
> The highest I've ever heard of is Brazil, who was once around 0.65
> (don't know if they still are or not). I think that's for wealth.

Assuming the GC for VN is accurate, there's no small group that holds a
dispropotionately large piece of the national cake.

On the other hand, income disparity exists at an average level (as measured
against the highest GC you've ever known - a GC of 1 is way in the realm of
fantasy.) My point is, there's no way you can tell who the wealthier are or
are not just by looking at the GC. Specifically I cannot say the wealthy are
all VCP-connected; likewise Mr TCK cannot claim that the GC shows that
the wealthy are NOT all VCP-connected.

You wrote:
> The GC measures what share of something each percentile has
Could you please explain briefly what this percentile refers to ?

And finally how much do you think the "underground" sector of the economy
would affect the GC and other statistics?

Thanks,

JoJ

"jupiterean" wrote in message
news:bh5h8j$ugebd$1@ID-75869.news.uni-berlin.de...
> On the other hand, income disparity exists at an average level (as
measured
> against the highest GC you've ever known - a GC of 1 is way in the realm
of
> fantasy.)

I take this part back, sorry. I've just realized that while a GC of 1 is way
in the realm of fantasy, a GC of 0 is equally unrealistic.

JoJ