The Separation Of Fools, Church & State

[MORTARDUDE]

Your points are well taken. I have never been involved with A. A. and from what I read it is a wonderful organization. I personally have no quarrel whatsover wth their organization or methods. If it works, so much the better. If indeed a judge mandates that you go, even though you are not required to buy into the religious aspect, is this not, somehow or another, having the government involved with religion ? I would like to see the ACLU tackle this. They only get involved with stuff they know they can win.

Larry

[SuperScout]

At the risk of blowing my AA cover, I heartily agree about the bona fide efficacy of the Program. SIDEBAR: there was fellow, quite regular in his attendance at meetings, who professed his belief as a Jew. He didn't say "practicing Jew" but that's not the point. In one meeting, he spoke up about his opposition to ending every AA meeting with a Christian prayer. When I was recognized by the chair, I remarked that being no theologian, much less a scholar of any particular theology, I did remind my pious listeners that this so-call Christian prayer was actually authored by a Jewish rabbi. End of discussion!

Back on point: rathner than continue to flounder around in the sea of moral uncertainty, the US Supremes need to rule on the matter; as Larry Mortarchunker has so eloquently stated, a crippling double-standand should not be allow to prevail.

[HARDCORE]

Unfortunately ladies & gentlemen, the concept of "Equal Rights" has (in some cases) become one in which "SOME" people (at times) have become more equal than others! (A sorry fact, not fiction!!)

Although the "Constitution" (under attack though it is at times), may not explicitly spell out a separation, unless we generally adhere to one, while protecting and respecting the rights of both at the same time, and while learning from tragic errors of the past in the process, does not the danger of yet another Inquisition (of sorts), administered by someone akin to a modern "Tomas De Torquemada (1420-1498)" yet exist?

Absolute Power in the hands of any entity, religious, political or economic, can (unfortunately, and in my opinion) sometimes mutate into a form of despotism in a heartbeat! And unless the people themselves maintain the final controls, they can eventually lose all control!!

And if, like most people, you feel that this could never happen here, then please remember these words of Thomas Jefferson:

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone!! The people themselves, therefore, are its (government's) only safe depositories!" (1784)

Unfortunately, some in government now feel themselves so much smarter and wiser than even Tom Jefferson (a man who also admittedly made mistakes) - and if you don't believe it, just ask them?!


"What do you think?"


VERITAS

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry -
The thing about AA is they don't have anything that the ACLU could possibly take from them, and even if they did try to take what little AA has, they wouldn't pay the slightest attention to the order. It'd be utterly meaningless effort. AA's monuments exist only in their hearts, and they see no purpose in erecting any anywhere else. They don't owe anybody anything, except to one another, and that debt is strictly private. Not even the government can touch it, the cops adore AA, and the courts are unspeakably grateful that it exists... since 1939.

The ONLY requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking.

If the ACLU wants to doom itself to perdition and a war like they have never seen or dreamt possible, just let 'em poke their upturned noses into AA. It'd make this skirmish over the Ten Commandments look like a 3-day pass. For one thing, a lot of sitting Judges, cops, bureaucrats and practising lawyers are members of AA or Al-Anon... anonymously. There is nowhere anyone can go ON EARTH, where you will not find some kind of AA.

The number of vets who are active in that organization would boggle the mind if they were to be counted... and lemme tell ya, a drunken vet is difficult enough, but a sober one is unstoppable.

If the United States government practised a version of their 12 steps, there would not have been a war in Korea, Vietnam or Iraq.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Mike

[BLUEHAWK]

Emperor Scout -
That's it brother, I can hardly wait to see what the Supremes do with this Alabama thang. I'd be willing to bet that the diarrhea medication is being requisitioned at an alarming rate in those hallowed halls this minute.

HC -
I, too, have sometimes wondered about the point you are making vis religious Inquisition. For what it may be worth, our Constitution comforts my own apprehensions when it says that Congress shall make NO LAW establishing or preventing the free exercise of... religion. Therefore, when and if we can all get ourselves back to what the words actually SAY, instead of what some people say they say, then I see no risk at all of Inquisition being inevitable.

Obviously, however, such a thing has been tried a few times in America in the past... as with the hideous persecution of Catholics (read Cavaliers/Papists) by Protestants (read Calvinists/Puritans) that practically dominated american life until JFK was elected. The KKK has tried a similar approach, to little lasting effect, when it came to the Jews. There are so many examples, not least of which is the propaganda of Black Muslims (noticeably absent in the current ethical debates about war in the middle east, by the way).

What prevented any of that from continuing, I believe, is that the normal american, when reading the first amendment, comes out of the experience knowing:
a) government may not establish any religion
b) government may not restrict free expression of religion

If either of those two provisions had been left out, then I would agree, Inquisition would be inevitable.

What do you think?

Mike

[Seascamp]

Blue,
I think it would be a great thing if the ACLU got hot on the trail of AA and the more public the better. As you suggest, there are a lot of friends of Bill W out there that believe in one day at a time and are learning to handle adversity, one day at a time. If the ACLU has an overwhelming desire to visit the working end of the buzz saw, they picked a good one. I?m looking forward to seeing them get cut to bits on this deal.

Scamp

[Arrow]

What Scamp said each time and every time....

Thanks Scamp...this is an important topic but mycircuts are overloaded and I'm just a bit overwhelmed right now...So keep up the fire...

Peace...

[BLUEHAWK]

Samp -
I see your point, very nicely said.

Bring 'em on, and we'll Roll.

Let me just say, if I were the ACLU I'd rather face the First Marine division.

I do believe they will learn the true meaning of free speech.

Mike

[Seascamp]

Maybe Mike, maybe.

But I?m thinking an object lesion in free speech would be a ?B? list item as compared to the need to visit their proctologist in order to retrieve their case files and unfortunate colleagues.

Scamp

[kmetz]

I'm not a member of an organized religion--I believe in nature, so I'd like to see the following plaque in every courthouse in America, "You can't fool Mother Nature!"

As to the Constitution, doesn't the appearance of the Ten Commandments in a government building give the impression that the government is backing the Judeo-Christian ethic? And could this be construed to show that that ethic is present in the passage of laws by the government.

And there is a difference between "public place" and "government buildings." As far as I'm concerned anything can appear in a "public place" even offensive art. I don't have to go there, but I might not have the choice to stay out of my county courthouse.

Talk about hypocrites--the founding fathers were the biggest ones our country have ever known! Preaching one thing and doing just the opposite.

I for one am the most offended by being required, by peer pressure, to stand for the National Anthem at athletic events (the ones I attended were basically high school basketball games)! I'd always wanted to sit during this ceremony, and one time I had guts enough to do it. I now just stay away from athletic events. When I was an army wife, I had to stand for the "Anthem" at the movie theatre before the film began!!!! What the hell????

I am so old that I remember when God was not mentioned in the Pledge of Allegiance.

I saw not long ago, that in England, trial witnesses are asked to take the oath to tell the truth by swearing the oath in relation to their own personal religious beliefs--that's probably how we should do it too.