War Backers Start Camp Near Bush Ranch

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by Arrow

Steve...

I was asking the same question when800,000 to a million people were slaughtered in Rwanda on President Clinton's watch.

The answer is theworld as awhole sees the African people as expendable.

Arrow>>>>>>

CNN

Yep, and I was JUST as disgusted with Clinton and his administration for allowing THAT to take place as I am with Bush and his administration for allowing the same to take place in Africa now!

It makes NO SENSE to justify removing Sadamn from power for his 'atrocities' against his people while ignoring what is happening in Uganda, Darfur, Sudan, Chad and other central and northern African nations as we speak!

Clinton was ridiculed and vilified for using American military forces for 'Nation building' and attempting to 'spread Democracy' by the very same political and industrial leaders who NOW are doing the EXACT same thing in Iraq? Talk about 'hypocritical' behavior and 'flip-flopping' policy!

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by David No doubt their constitution will not be perfect. We have been working on ours for over two hundred years now. Nor will it's perpetual path of progress be unmarred by incident as evidenced by the often times painful (civil war, women's suffrage, civil rights) evolutions in our own government.

The good end point came with the fall of Hussein's torturous government, everything from there on out has been a series of starting points. Probably the single most important of those starting points has been the development of their constitution which will insure their evolving liberties long after our troops have come home.

Well said...

Speaking before the VFW in Salt Lake the other day, the president stated that our purpose is to defend our homeland, put an end to terrorism and to spread freedom.

The Sunni, who essentially refused to vote as a protest to the recent Iraqi election, are now demanding equitable treatment in a democratically elected government. They will stop at nothing, nothing, to interfere with a spread of freedom in that entire region. Their conduct makes the Shiite mullahs of Iran look like moderates.

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by catman James, Gimpy...the two of you are so good at pointing out everything that is wrong with this Great country of Ours and the current Administartion, tell me if it is all that bad, why are you both still here or why have you not run for office. You both seem to know what's best for the rest of us less informed people. Why are the two of you not in D.C. trying to change things instead of posting lengthy intones on these pages telling us how bad we "all" are.

Trav

Trav
You read me (and Gimpy) completely wrong. I don't point out everything thats wrong with this great country of ours, that is a complete canard. I have not said A NYTHING bad about this country at all, certainly not in that above post. not at all--Neither Gimpy nor I are anti American-- we're PRO American. We want whats best for the country which is not to be involved in ANOTHER endless war.

I point out what the people who are in charge are doing completely wrong and thats completely different from saying the country's "bad." We want whats best for this country--and only a fool thinks that tieing ourseleves to a bloody war for another generation is going to be good for America. Fools like the people in charge
I understand the people in power want America to think that opposition to their party is opposiition to America. Its not--its just explaining why the party in power has , rather stupidly in my opinion. involved us in a war we have no chance to "win" if you think "winning" means actually gaining something

I want to know--whats going to be good for the average American about this? Gas just went to $3/gallon in some places--before this war, 2 1/2 years ago it was half that much. So far as I can see that hasn't been answered yet and if its not satisfactorily answered, I proved my case--the people in charge got us in a really bad place. Think its disloyal to say it? Paste it in your hat!
I'll keep this one short although the rest are longer because its a highly complex subject, it takes a lot of words to talk about it.
Stay good
James

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout Excuse me, but I thought this thread was about War Backers in Crawford, not about some limp-thingie organization that sat by and allowed the Rwandan slaughter to happen.

And you bet your sweet one I back this war. And unlike some of you, I have an enormous personal commitment to its successful conclusion, with two sons on active duty with the US Army, both already combat veterans. No, the war is not going perfectly, but show me a war that has gone perfectly. You sound like you're happy, James, when bad things happen to America. I genuinely hope I'm wrong in that assessment.

Why is the freeing of 20 million people from the worst example of tyranny NOT a humanitarian justification, only to be labeled "propaganda"? What was your hero Slick Willie doing, beside Monica, while the unhumanitarian slaughter was occuring in Rwanda? Why isn't the storied and eminently successful United Nations doing anything to alleviate the suffering in Sudan and other places? Could it just possibly be that they are so totally and completely inept, incompetent, and powerless, yet they are the same inept, incompetent and powerless organization that your other hero, John "Did you know that I was a Vietnam War veteran?" Kerry insisted run the war in Iraq? And wasn't it some of the other Democrat wunderkind that obstructed the confirmation of a strong ambassador to the United Nations for months, thereby preventing a more forceful voice to be heard in those storied chambers? It's not the Washington elite preventing the continuing ethnic cleansing or genocide, but the inept, incompetent and powerless United Nations.

There are only three people who can't admit the truth that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and alQaeda, and all three of them are wrong. Or stupid. Or both.

And thank you Tom, for making that very eloquent statement and defending the sacrifice of our departed warriors.

Brice: yourer definitely wrong in this assessment: "You sound like you're happy, James, when bad things happen to America. I genuinely hope I'm wrong in that assessment." I want what5s best for America and we're not getting it--I might poiunt out that polls all over the place say the majority of Americans think Bush has mishandled the war. Its been one
I'm talking about the war and asking querstions because it lools like we're in a really bad place--it looks like we have our soldiers committed to being there "as long as it takes" As long as WHAT takes? Where 's the endpoint??/ Thats what I'm asking.
Slick Willie and what he did is entirely ireelevant to this conversation--he didn't go to war over phony information and he didn't claimt to be making the world safe for democracy.
Clinton days were the good old days for this country, now we're in 2 wars, unemployment is STILL a % higher and gas is double what it was before the war.
The "freeing of 20 million people...tyranny..etc" is not why we went to war. We went to war on the proposition that Saddam was amassing WMDs including nuclear--this information turned out to be completely false didn't it? Clinton believed it too? He didn't go to war on it.
"We know that Saddam Hussein is amassing nuclear weapons..." Cheney, Jan 2003
Thats why we went to war--on complete lies like that--nothing was EVER said about freeing Iraq from tyranny untill much later.
As a matter of fact, we WOULDN'T have gone to war to free Iraq from tyranny--there was no consensus AT ALL for that and they didn't try to make the argument--that came later after it was well proven that there were no WMD stockpiles.
Re the UN--if the UN was running the war it wouldn't be our troops doing all the dying there. It would have been much smarter to get a real coalition on our side, like GHW Bush did, but that would have taken powers of persuasion and actual leadership--something this administration sadly lacks.
Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda??Prove it--our government sure didn't.

You still havent answered my basic question--what does the average American gain by this? We see that Halliburton's gained a lot. We see that the oil companies have gained a lot--all that at the expense of the average American taxpayer. What does the America taxpayer gain for all the money we're putting out?
If askint questions about the war and demanding reasonable answer shows disloyalty then paste it in your hat!
Stay good all
James

Ps if you like irrelevant questions, why can't the Republican President and Republican Congress ever balance the budget?

[Seascamp]

Sis,
The sordid business in Rwanda goes quite deep and is a statement of how things really go. It was one of the European powers; either France or Belgium, that put the Hutu tribal government in place, then cut and ran. Given the reality that this ?power? had decades of experience in the area, they had to know what was going to happen next, and it did, but it went to total blood bath runaway I reckon.

During the entire time the UN had military forces in Rwanda but were never given authorization or the back up necessary to intervene. Fact is, the UN troops are lucky to have gotten out alive themselves; some were chopped to bits by the rampaging Hutu and only by force of arms did the majority get through it in one piece. But through it all the UN refused to support or provide authorization for the UN troops in Rwanda to do anything at all. As I recall the UN Security Council said, ?non, no-way, forget it, etc.? I think there is a recent movie called ?Hotel Rwanda? that provides some of the story and the UN Commander in Rwanda at the time; a Canadian Col., wrote a book on the subject. I believe the book is entitled ?Face of the Devil? or ?Shaking Hands with the Devil?, something along those lines, that provides great detail as to what really occurred.

Some in-depth research of scholarly, professional and reliable non-US leftist source material would probably reveal that there was some extreme European vested interest in making sure the Hutu came to power and stayed there, but perhaps they didn?t anticipate the totality of absolute blood bath that ensued. Maybe they were signed up for a lesser form of a blood bath, who knows.
Tiz most likely a saga that is remarkably similar to the French and UN total commitment to keeping Saddam ensconced upon his throne of terror. But those are things that are not discussed for that would spoil the party. Kind of like what Forrest Gump said, ?Sorry to start a fight at your Black Panther Party?

Scamp

[catman]

James...good honest answer. thank you.

Trav

[SuperScout]

Fortunately, our President is not driven by what people think of him in the polls; only weak-willed and spineless people are motivated by that gutless approach to life.

Do you really think people whined about how WWII was being conducted, endlessly asking, "When is it going to be over with? How much is it going to cost us? Should we really be doing this?" Of course not. Back then, people were not so eaten up with the instant gratification syndrome as they are today. Do you really think that we went to war in WWII for one simple reason? Was it just for revenge of the Pearl Harbor bombing? There was a multitude of reasons for entering WWII, just as there were several reasons for the war in Iraq, including removing SH from power. One of the reasons why we had a "Europe First" policy during WWII was the well-founded fear that Hitler was desperately trying to develop a nuclear bomb, hence the priority of effort, men and materiel into the ETO. All indications pointed towards the same thing possibly occuring in Iraq; fortunately for us, the Iraqi scientists were not as capable as those in the Nazi regime. Anyone who thinks that SH would not have used any WMD that he was in the process of developing on us infidels has been smoking way too much happy weed.

And Slick Willie never had the cajones to go to war the way it should have been fought. We're still being drained financially for his wondrous actions in the Balkans, still mourning the loss of Rangers and others for his wondrous actions in Somalia, and still paying the piper for his wondrous actions in Haiti. His legacy of foreign policy blunders is exceeded only by the stain on Monica's dress.

The UN to the rescue? It is to laugh. It was the UN troops who cut and ran in Rwanda, allowing the genocide that cost more than half-million lives. They have no troops - they have to go bribe some third-world backwater to send their unemployed "soldiers" to do their bidding, if and when they get the cajones to commit forces to combat. If you like the way the UN handled the Food for Oil proram, you'll love the way they conduct war. You want us to ally with the French, whose practice of perfidy is now an art form? Or with the Germans, who would rather sell goods and services to the Devil than deal honestly?

What does the average American gain by our actions in Iraq and other areas of counter-terrorist activities? Would the answer of killing the terrorists on their allegedly home turf instead of in America be a good enough answer for you? What it is about World War III and our part in it - even as we speak - that you don't get?

[b3196]

Brice
I was reading your post and I had to laugh. You mentioned something in there that I've havn't heard for years "Cajones" Thats Italian for BALLS!!!.......Yes Andy I must tell the truth, I'm half Italian, Polish by injection only
Bob K

[Arrow]

Thanks Scamp,

I recently watched Hotel Rwanda.It is exactly as you have stated the UN did nothing to support their troops on the ground. I came away more convinced than ever that organization is one of the most cowardly, most inept, and most corrupt on the face of this earth. As always I appreciate your input Scamp.Sis

[Arrow]

Whatare we as Americans going to get for this war in Iraq? How about thesame thing that American troops got when they liberated the concentration camps ofWWII. When they saw those camps they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt they had done the right thing.

Most(not all) troops that have been on the ground in Iraq believe they have done the right thing. It won't be me telling those that do believe theyare doing the right thing when they come home theirsacrifice and the sacrifice of their fallenbrothers and sisterswas for nogood cause at all.

Those that do will most likely be faced with the same highly disciplined response you hear over and over again. "We fought for the people of Iraq to have the same freedom of speech you are expressing today."That's who they are. Hooah.

Arrow>>>>>>