Torture Iraq prisoners

[catman]

Tell it to the thousands killed on 9-11. Those poor Iraqi bastards should be happy just to be breathing, an option that was always in question when Hussein was still in power.

Goddamn shame with all that is going on in this world, this is getting more play than anything.

Trav

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by catman Tell it to the thousands killed on 9-11. Those poor Iraqi bastards should be happy just to be breathing, an option that was always in question when Hussein was still in power.
Goddamn shame with all that is going on in this world, this is getting more play than anything. Trav

You know what, I have some of your thousands! We were deeply effected by 9-11 here in the Hudson Valley. I lost four close friends : John Marshall, Thomas Foley, The Fischer Brothers, all NYFD! Family of these people know that ALL IRAQI's didn't blow up the towers. I know plenty more firefighters that were there on and after 9-11, a lot of them felt the treatment these prisoners received was uncalled for and out of line.
The United States doesn't play the game that way, plain and simple. The assholes who screwed up need to wind up with dishonorable discharges after they do time in a stockade. (Where they will have civil rights, rights under the UCMJ, humane and just treatment and trained professional personal watching them.)

[39mto39g]

These prisoners wern't injured they were embarassed. The CIA and NSA and MI have conducted information extraction for a very long time. There methods may look bad to some and really bad to others, But the information they get is what is important.
If a prisoner had information that would save 1 GIs life and the only way he would give it up was to have his fingers cut off while hanging from a wire, ARE YOU GOING TO CUT OFF THE FINGERS?????? or let the GI die???
In a war people aren't nice to each other, well DAHHH.
The Guards actions in a civilian prison or even in a military prison that was just a detainie holding area are wrong, But these prisoners were in the MI section of the prison, which means they had information that could save our guys lives, If embaressing them is how to get the information than embarass the hell out of the prisoners.
I still would look at the motive of the person who realest the pictures to the media. There is the real problem.

And, once again, Don't take prisoners---

Ron

[revwardoc]

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/5704-iraq-slaves.html

Cleric's Aide Says Captured Females Can Be Slaves

BASRA, Iraq May 7, 2004 ? A senior aide of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr told worshippers during a Friday sermon in southern Iraq that anyone capturing a female British soldier can keep her as a slave.

The aide, Sheik Abdul-Sattar al-Bahadli, also called on supporters to launch jihad, or holy war, against British troops in this southern city.

He offered money to anyone capturing or killing a member of the Governing Council, the widely unpopular interim administration appointed by the U.S.-led occupation 10 months ago.

Al-Bahadli, al-Sadr's chief representative in southern Iraq, spoke at al-Hawi mosque in central Basra.

It was the first time any anti-occupation activist of note publicly offered financial reward for the killing or capturing of coalition troops.

That offer likely will be viewed by occupation authorities with concern at a time of rising anti-occupation sentiment and continuing fighting between al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army militia and U.S. forces in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala. A wave of kidnappings last month saw scores of foreign nationals snatched by insurgents and shadowy groups across Iraq.

Al-Bahadli kept an assault rifle next to him as he spoke to an estimated 3,000 worshippers, occasionally lifting it as he screamed "jihad!," and "Allahu Akbar!," or "God is greatest!"

He held what he said were documents and photographs of three Iraqi women being raped at British-run prisons in Iraq.

He also accused British forces in Basra of failing to honor agreements not to patrol inside the city and to stop harassing al-Sadr supporters in Basra.

Al-Bahadli said 250,000 dinars _ about $350 _ will be given to anyone capturing a British soldier and 100,000 dinars _ or $150 _ to anyone killing one.

He also called on government departments in Basra to display pictures of al-Sadr in their offices.

In Fallujah, a Sunni hotbed of anti-occupation resistance west of Baghdad, an estimated 400 al-Sadr supporters from Najaf, Karbala and Baghdad prayed at one of the city's main Sunni mosques in a symbolic act of solidarity.

Shiites form a majority in Iraq but were oppressed for decades by a Sunni Arab minority until Saddam Hussein's ouster a year ago. Sunnis have been embittered by their loss of power to Shiites in post-Saddam Iraq.

But last month's siege of Fallujah by U.S. Marines and al-Sadr's standoff with the Americans have brought the two sects together, with al-Sadr posters now in Fallujah and Shiites sending relief supplies to the city.

[SparrowHawk62]

"These prisoners wern't injured they were embarassed. The CIA and NSA and MI have conducted information extraction for a very long time. There methods may look bad to some and really bad to others, But the information they get is what is important.
If a prisoner had information that would save 1 GIs life and the only way he would give it up was to have his fingers cut off while hanging from a wire, ARE YOU GOING TO CUT OFF THE FINGERS?????? or let the GI die???
In a war people aren't nice to each other, well DAHHH."

With this I agree 100%. But as mentioned the "Pros" are doing the information gathering. I could also assure you while these folks were doing what they have been trained to do, NO ONE would be taking photos!

"The Guards actions in a civilian prison or even in a military prison that was just a detainie holding area are wrong, But these prisoners were in the MI section of the prison, which means they had information that could save our guys lives, If embaressing them is how to get the information than embarass the hell out of the prisoners."

Doesn't matter what section of the prison they were being held in. They were no longer under interrogation! The dopes watching them were there to do just that and only that, WATCH THEM. For those that don't know a Detainee has more privileged in a Military Prison then some one who is sentenced. Basic rule is that they have not been found guilty of anything.

"I still would look at the motive of the person who realest the pictures to the media. There is the real problem."

Maybe who ever released the photos was sick of seeing this type of abuse take place. Seeing how the COC was AFU he/she was limited as to whom to complain to.

"And, once again, Don't take prisoners--- "

That's a bit easier when you're only working with a Patrol or a Squad. Sure as hell is hard to do when CNN is riding along in the back of your Hummer.

[melody1181]

I think this is one messed up thing. I do believe the things these soldiers did was wrong...beyond a doubt. Oh and that female in the photo said she is pregnant with that one fella's baby(the other soldier in the photos I guess.)

For the most part I think these people should be thrown in prison for stupidity. How dumb do you have to be to document this crap. They need to really figure out how this all happened and get rid of the ones who have been doing it. We are there to bring order and peace, and all that crap and here a handfull of morons are making it harder on the guys patrolling and doing the harder work.

[Arrow]

Good Grief. Have a little more faith in all that is right and good in this country and the system. Why don't some of you all take the time to go to c-span and read all the reports and watch the video of the hearings today instead of posting knee jerk reactions. There has been an ongoing investigation for months. There were hostages being held and troops that are still on the groundto be considered also.Not to mention DUE PROCESS for the half witted. What good is speculation and rumor and finger pointing until all the facts are laid out on the table. I'm stunned at people ona military history sitethat fancy themselves history buffs depending on such for their source of information.

Another thing how about a little less grousing about all that is wrong with the conduct of our military and a lot more praise of those that are carrying out their responsibilties with honor and dignity.The old song and dance about we "support our troops but not their mission" doesn't fly in the face of history. The mission in Vietnam was aborted by those that said the same. Read Giap and tell me it isn't so.

Arrow>>>>>>

[reeb]

???????

Arent the Iraquis dark skin????????//

Look at the pix......

[darrels joy]

The Greyhawk Factor

Seymour Hersh has had an amazing story dropped into his lap. A group of American GIs, caught on camera, abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. Heinous acts. The wheels of justice were certainly turning, but nailing the abusive guards is not enough for the intrepid reporter. Indeed, since evidence indicates that one of those guard's attorneys most likely provided that information to Hersh, it follows that getting the higher ups was likely part of the deal.

But, having failed to provide "actionable intelligence" against those "higher ups" in his largely factual (albeit chronologically challenged) New Yorker article, Hersh has embarked on a televised disinformation campaign, recently appearing on the "O'Reilly Factor" in an effort to sow additional confusion in a public already stunned into incomprehension by the graphic photos he helped make famous worldwide.

The campaign relies on two main points, neither of which is completely factual: 1) the Army did nothing, and 2) it's the superior's fault, not the troops. Point one is a lie. Point two is true, but there's a level where it becomes ludicrous. Given that point one is a lie, that level is low.

Hersh's segment immediately followed that of BG Karpinski. From the transcript:

O'REILLY: Joining us from Washington is investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, who became famous during the Vietnam war; you may remember his expose of the My Lai atrocities. He has written a major article about the Iraq torture situation in this week's issue of "The New Yorker magazine."

All right, you just heard General Karpinski. Do you believe what she is saying?

Don't expect any straight answers. Hersh's initial statements are simply bizarre, but he warms up and then ultimately segues into a series of lies.

SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": Well, I could just tell you what Gen Antonio Taguba said in his report, which is complicated because he said basically among other things she ran one of the worst brigades he's ever seen. People didn't salute, people dressed casually. Officers were moved around without orders. They didn't keep records. They -- she said that this was not a prison full of hardened, you know, soldiers caught in war. These are full of civilians.

He said upwards of 60 percent of the people in the prison had nothing to do with, no bad feelings toward America whatsoever. They simply were caught in a random roadside check or they were snatched off the street. They should have been processed under the Geneva Convention. -- Taguba said they should have been processed. We should have gotten rid of the good guys from the bad guys. There was no control, no paperwork. They had all sorts of problems that she would -- he really gave her [a bad review].


Bizarre comment 1: Hersh has no idea what percentage of the prisoners "had no bad feelings toward America whatsoever" - the claim is ridiculous. However, he tops it in a response to a question on his statement that he has knowledge of other torture photos and videos:

...O'REILLY: All right. So we're going to see in the weeks to come more pictures and videotapes of atrocities against Iraqis? Is that what we can look forward to seeing?

HERSH: Mr. O'Reilly, this is a generation -- you know back -- you and I in our days, if we had something, you know, we came back from war. We would take our pictures and hide them behind the socks in the drawer and look at them once in a while.

This is a generation that sends stuff on CDs, sends it around. some kid right now is negotiating with some European magazine. -- You know, I can't say that for sure, but it's there. -- It's out there. And the Army knows it.

O'REILLY: Boy.

HERSH: They have tried to recover some of the CD discs from computers, individual computers. But obviously, you can't stop this...


Bizarre comment 2: Must we repeat it? "...you and I in our days, if we had something, you know, we came back from war. We would take our pictures and hide them behind the socks in the drawer and look at them once in a while."

O'Reilly knows where the story is (or isn't) though, and quickly gets out of the sock drawer and into the main point:

O'REILLY: All right. Well, the damage to the country obviously is just immeasurable. But reading your article in "The New Yorker." I just get the feeling that the Army, when they heard about it, started action almost immediately. It wasn't a cover-up situation. Or did I read your article wrong?

HERSH: This guy Taguba is brilliant. He could have made a living doing -- it's a credit to the Army that somebody with that kind of integrity would write this kind of -- it's 53-page report.

O'REILLY: OK, but Sanchez the commander put him in charge fairly quickly. They mobilized fairly quickly.

HERSH: No, look, I don't want to ruin your evening, but the fact of the matter is it was the third investigation. There had been two other investigations.

One of them was done by a major general who was involved in Guantanamo, General Miller. And it's very classified, but I can tell you that he was recommending exactly doing the kind of things that happened in that prison, basically. He wanted to cut the lines. He wanted to put the military intelligence in control of the prison.

Hersh is lying: There were three investigations. And the two he acknowledges were conducted prior to the discovery of wrongdoing at Abu Ghraib. Immediately upon that discovery the Army launched a CID investigation into the allegations, it obtained the bulk of the evidence that led to the criminal charges in the case. Taguba's followed and was the fourth.

So the correct answer to O'Reilly's question was "Yes"

O'REILLY: ...Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see unfolding here from what you told me and then General Karpinski told me is that there is a tension between the interrogators who wanted to find out by you know, using means that are dubious information, and the military police who basically who objected to some of these techniques.

But you can understand that like Vietnam, you have people shooting at Americans, blowing them up, and then running into mosques and hiding behind children and all of that. So how far do we go to get the information that protects our own troops?

That I guess is the essential question that led to this scandal, correct?

HERSH: Yes, but one of the things, the problem you have, of course you have to go if you're dealing with hardened Al Qaeda. There's not much mercy. And none of us would have much mercy.

The problem here is they were picking on people that they hadn't made any differentiation on. They didn't know.


Hersh dodged the question by a country mile (not a talking point), and is lying: The prisoners at the "huge prison complex" (Hersh's term):

"fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of ?crimes against the coalition?; and a small number of suspected ?high-value? leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces."

- According to Hersh's New Yorker story. And as at any prison, those groups were housed in separate areas. Having implied the victims were simply picked up while minding their own business, Hersh describes the torture. To his great credit, O'Reilly waves the BS flag on this one:

And you know, and the kind of stuff that was going on, Mr. O'Reilly, when you take an Arab man and you make him walk naked in front of other men, this is the greatest shame they can have. And then you have them simulate homosexual activities. You have young women and young men, the women in particular, videotaping and photographing them doing this. This is actually a form of torture and coercion.

O'REILLY: No, there's no question about it. And there's no question. There's no justification for it. But how do you wind up in a prison if you're just innocent and didn't do anything? See, our commanders and our embedded reporters tell me that they're way too busy to be rounding up guys in the marketplace and throwing them into prison.

So I'm going to dispute your contention that we had a lot of people in there with just no rap sheets at all, who were just picked up for no reason at all. The people who were in the prison were suspected of being either Al Qaeda or terrorists who were killing Americans and knew something about it.

HERSH: The problem is that it isn't my contention. It's the contention of Maj. Gen. Taguba, who was appointed by General Sanchez to do the investigation.


Oooo, that's a lie you can be called on by the person you claim to speak for Seymour, quick, recover...

It's his contention, in his report, that more than 60 percent of the people in that prison, detainees, civilians, had nothing to do with the war effort.

Whew. But those 60% were housed elsewhere, and were not tortured. Not that Hersh can't quite bring himself to tell that lie, though he does come close:

O'REILLY: How did they get there then? Because I...
HERSH: Because how do they get into the prison?

I'll tell you how they get there. You bust the guy that doesn't have anything to do. You humiliate him. You break him down. You interrogate him. He gives up the name of you want to know who is an insurgent, who is Al Qaeda? He gives up any name he knows.

O'REILLY: Do you really believe that U.S. forces were sweeping Baghdad, and the others -- you're just picking people up off the street for no reason?

HERSH: Well, inevitably you get people in a sweep that have nothing to with what you're looking for.

O'REILLY: All right, now that's true. But to the number of...

HERSH: Of course.

O'REILLY: ...50 percent, I'm not buying that. I mean, I could be wrong. But I'm going on the basis of our reporters in the field. And I'm asking them, have you ever seen any of these -- no. These guys are way to busy. They got stuff to do all day long. They're not sweeping people up.

HERSH: We're talking about last fall, when things weren't as acute as they are now, certainly it's a terrible situation right now. And everybody -- nobody is sweeping anything. They're in forced protection.

O'REILLY: Right.

HERSH: But last fall, things were much calmer. People were being swept. This did happen.

O'REILLY: All right.


Not all right. Hersh is a liar. Last fall was Ramadan, and the press was gleefully touting deaths of soldiers every day. Maybe Hersh was on vacation. With his kids.

HERSH: And I could tell you something else. Let me just say this. I believe the services have a -- look, the kids did bad things. But the notion that it's all just these kids [doing these things]... The officers are "in loco parentis" with these children. We send our children to war. And we have officers like that general, whose job is to be mother and father to these kids, to keep them out of trouble. The idea of watching these pictures, it's not only a failure of the kids, it's a failure of everybody in the command structure.
True to a point. But if Hersh actually went away to war and came home with trophy photos for his sock drawer then he knows damn well no General ever had the job of being his mother. And SSG Frederick is 38 years old. A child? This however, is Hersh's hot talking point, and time was growing short to get it in.

O'REILLY: Well, yes, it's the failure of the supervisors of those soldiers to create an environment of fear so they wouldn't do that. See, it's just appalling to me that they would take this so casually.

Let's call O'Reilly on that one: "Environment of fear"? That's what keeps humans from torturing one another? Not defending anyone's supervisor here, but bad call, Bill.

To his credit, O'Reilly indicates with his "Buh-bye" speech that he's less than impressed with Hersh's credibility, requesting he return when he's gotten something worthwhile.

O'REILLY: All right, Mr. Hersh, we hope if you get other information, hard information, you will come here and tell us about it after writing for "The New Yorker." Your article is very interesting. We do recommend it and we thank you for your time, sir.
HERSH: Sure.

A bizarre performance, but Hersh is hardly the guidon bearer on this crusade. Many others in media and politics will take up the cause. Anyone with an axe to grind for any reason - women in the military, prison conditions, the decay of our society, the impeachment of the president - has already waved the GI Joe action photos as all the proof they need.

The photos prove only that the GIs in them are capable of heinous acts. Deplorable acts. Criminal acts.

No, many faster youngsters are far out ahead of Hersh on this one, but at least he can tell his old My Lai buddy that he gave it a try.
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/

I have no comments of my own on this. I think Greyhawk covered what he thinks is happening now.
Joy

[MORTARDUDE]

There was a lot more going on at the prison than pictures and threats. Rumsfeld and crew should leave, since they sat on all of this, not having the good sense to know what a disaster it was. Officers above the rank of those in the pictures should be court martialed as well. There are a lot of ways to try to put some positive spin on this...but the truth of the matter is that it is a crime and goes to the top.

Larry