Date to get out of Iraq

[Boats]

I caught most of Black-Hawk down again last night on TV that movie really frustrated me. I sure don't want that scenario in Iraq. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know if that applies but the whole thing made me uncomfortable.

[Gimpy]

[i]Originally posted by Arrow :
James has stated more than one time on this site that those that were not in Vietnam have nothing to say about it. I can assure you we have warriors in Iraq that would appreciate it if James and those like him would keep their mouth shut about the war they are fighting in Iraq and get 100% behind them to get the job done so they can come home.


Shame on any of us and especially Vietnam Veterans that put our troops in harms way and embolden those that have them in their crosshairs by expressing our lack of confidence in their ability to fight and win any war , any time, any place !

This is where we part company Lil Sis.

Little did I know at the time (67/68) that the majority of folks protesting that war back then were actually HELPING get "the job done so they can come home".............it WAS an UNJUST WAR..........just like this damn war is!

A few major surgerys and a few years later a wiser, and more tolerant Vietnam veteran saw that MOST of those folks raising questions about the legitimacy of the war and the conduct of our political (and a few military) leaders was so despicable and thoughtless there should have been MORE OUTRAGE from the genral public and maybe that total of 58,000 plus on the WALL would have been reduced greatly!

And, as for THIS Vietnam Veteran "putting our troops into harms way"-----------I had NOTHING to do with it. Been against BEFORE it started, and STILL am! It was perversly initiated on lies, misinformation, doctored intelligence and outright manipulation of fear mongering from the Bushies and their cowardly cohorts!

And....I have ALL the "confidence" in the world for our troops to FIGHT & WIN-----------But, once again. The WAY this War has been and continues to be "prosecuted"..........with not enough body armour, vehicle armour, adequate troop strength, etc., etc. (and THIS from many, many more qualified former Senior Military than me such as General Shinseki, General Zinni, Col. David Hackworth, General McPeak, and on, and on!)--------it IS the OBLIGATION of those of us who HAVE been sent into conflict under simliar motivation(s) to SPEAK UP, AND OUT whenever and WHEREVER we see fit..............thank you very much!

I've said enough.

I'm shuttin up now..............at least for a while!

[Arrow]

Larry...

You know me well enough to know that I would have made the same post right smack in the middle of the Tet Offensive had there been a world wide web to say it on.If my memory serves me right we were brought to that war by aDemocrat.

The military has a job to do.As Sid said we can't just leave. Let them do it!

Don't lecture me about the cost of the Vietnam War.This family has paid their dues. You've had thirty six years longer than my deadhusband and six months to the day longer than my dead brother. They volunteered and you got drafted. Their dead and you still have a chance to dance.Justice has been served. As my bro said many times in regard to all that.....

"It's just life goin' on."~ Bob ~

Arrow>>>>>>>

[SuperScout]

What utter drivel! All of a sudden Gimpy's a war protester? And just who were the protesters saying that it was an 'unjust' war, other than mostly the communists sympathizers and their willing cohorts? Is it unjust to abide by treaty obligations, which is what the US was doing, or do you just blow commitment off like the dust on your Bible? Were you against the 'unjust' war that Clinton got us involved in in the Balkans or did you protest that too? Who put you in charge of declaring which wars are 'just' and which or not? Certainly, some aspects of the war in Vietnam were conducted poorly, mainly because of the megalomania of Lyndon B. Johnson, (Democrat-T) but that didn't detract from the honorable intention of the raison d'et.

And why don't you put to rest the tired old whine about the "lies about the WMD"? How many world leaders who had said it would it take to make you believe that SH had them, then probably exported them to Syria (remember last month's SCUD launches by Syria, not well noted for its WMD program until recently?) The French said he had them, the Germans said he had them, the Russians said he had them, and North Korea helped his acquire them. Even that paragon of virtue and honestly, Kofi Anan said he had them.

[Arrow]

No one can accuse me of not wanting our military to have the best of everything before, during and after a war. God knows I've beat that drum long and loud. To the point ofhaving many fair weather friends wave good by. XIN LOI

On the other hand I'm not going to make the claim that lack of equipment will cause us to go down in defeat. The American fighting man has to much spirit and knows how to improvise. From the Revolution to Iraq he hasusedboth giftsto get the job done. If we lose a war it has nothing to do with the will and the ingenuity of our fighting forces. Look homeward for the cause of that trouble.

Arrow>>>>>>

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by SuperScout We may want to stick on a caveat to your proposal: when the terrorists agree to stop the terrorist attacks, to disarm, to enbrace a religion that doesn't condone and encourage violence against non-belivers, then we'll agree to a timetable for withdrawal.

Did the anbody ever recommend a timetable as to when we would withdraw from Germany or Japan while WWII was still raging?

Ditto

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by SuperScout What utter drivel! All of a sudden Gimpy's a war protester? And just who were the protesters saying that it was an 'unjust' war, other than mostly the communists sympathizers and their willing cohorts?

No.they were NOT..............most of them were young, idealistic college kids tired of being lied to by their Guvmint!

I NEVER said I was a war protester, even though I did go to a few anti-war rallies. But, like my friend James said before....it was really to see the chicks and hopefully get laid.

I've told you and other folks around here before, anyone of those "protesters" who started calling any of us "baby killers" or "murderers" met the full measure of my verbal as well as physical wrath!

But, on to more history lessons for ya!


Is it unjust to abide by treaty obligations, which is what the US was doing, or do you just blow commitment off like the dust on your Bible?

You're certainly speaking of our treaty "obligations" to SEATO, correct. How funny you should mention that, since it was a REPUBLICAN president that made the decision to abandon that committment, remember Ford in 1975. And earlier Nixon's...."PEACE WITH HONOR"....... my ass!

His "Vietnamization" policy worked about as well as your boy Bush's is working in Iraq. Remember? And it WAS a Republican President, ...Eisenhower in 1954 that got us INTO that situation to begin with (Sorry Arrow...........it was NOT a Democratic pres. who started this $hit!)

Here's a memory "refresher" for ya!

The Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) alliance was organized (September 8, 1954) under the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty by representatives of Australia, France, Great Britain, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Thailand, and the United States and signed by the Eisenhower administration.

India, Indonesia, Ceylon, and Burma refused to join. South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos could not sign, due to the terms of the Geneva accords, which had guaranteed their neutrality.

SEATO was established after the French withdrawal from Indochina and was created to oppose further Communist gains in Southeast Asia. The treaty was supplemented by a Pacific Charter, supposedly to affirm the rights of Asian and Pacific peoples to equality and self-determination and set forth goals of economic, social, and cultural cooperation between those countries.

The civil and military organizations established under this treaty had their headquarters in Bangkok, Thailand.

SEATO relied on the military forces of member nations. But, (and here's the BIG BUT) SEATO's principal role was to sanction the U.S. presence in Vietnam. France and Pakistan withheld their support and Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the ROK(who offered assistance at the request of the U.S.) only sent limited amounts of military forces in comparison to the United States. Great Britians and the Philippines role was limited to even less.

The future of the organization was in doubt by 1973, and SEATO was ultimately disbanded in 1975.

So then, it appears that a Republican administration...Eisenhower... got us INTO this situation, and ANOTHER Republican administration....Ford..... decided this "treaty" wasn't worth the paper it was written on, huh? So much for THAT treaty.


Were you against the 'unjust' war that Clinton got us involved in in the Balkans or did you protest that too?

No.........I was not. He didn't use lies, deception, misinformation, or doctored intelligence. It was obvious to anyone with more brain cells than an Armadillo from Rio Linda Land that the ENTIRE world saw that the genocide and ethnic cleansing had to be stopped and nearly the ENTIRE FREE WORLD was in support of this action. Unlike the current Mess-in-opotamia .

Who put you in charge of declaring which wars are 'just' and which or not? Certainly, some aspects of the war in Vietnam were conducted poorly, mainly because of the megalomania of Lyndon B. Johnson, (Democrat-T) but that didn't detract from the honorable intention of the raison d'et.


I've already addressed that above.

But, I'll say this. Yeah, I'm just ask angry and disgusted that Kennedy and especially Johnson sent us into that hell hole and there's just as much blood on their hands as is Eisenhower's, Nixon's and Ford's in my book.

But, I sure don't see the "outrage" and "disgust" coming out of any conservatives mouth about how Nixon & Ford and their republican administration's just abandoned the people of SouthVietnam with their so-called "peace with honor" bullshit, ya know?

When I say "unjust War"...............I am NOT.........REPEAT, am NOT..........speaking of the American troops who served, fought, were wounded or died in the service of their country.

We were honoring our sacred duty to our country and 99.99999% of us believed we were there for all the right reasons. But everyone knows that WE were not allowed to win this war......even though I know we won on the battlefields..........our LEADERS.........Democrats & Republicans are guilty of unspeakable injustices not only to us............but to the citizens of South Vietnam as well.

And why don't you put to rest the tired old whine about the "lies about the WMD"? How many world leaders who had said it would it take to make you believe that SH had them, then probably exported them to Syria (remember last month's SCUD launches by Syria, not well noted for its WMD program until recently?) The French said he had them, the Germans said he had them, the Russians said he had them, and North Korea helped his acquire them. Even that paragon of virtue and honestly, Kofi Anan said he had them.

Yeah.......but he DIDN'T..........DID HE????? Even your boy Bush has admitted that!

And, had we followed the more even handed approach and let the weapons inspectors complete their damn job. 1,700 young Americans would still be alive and more than 20,000 wouldn't be wounded...would there? Not to mention the hatered and condemnation of most of the world has visited upon us either.


Have a nice day! :re:

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by Arrow No one can accuse me of not wanting our military to have the best of everything before, during and after a war. God knows I've beat that drum long and loud. To the point ofhaving many fair weather friends wave good by. XIN LOI

On the other hand I'm not going to make the claim that lack of equipment will cause us to go down in defeat.

Can you please show me where I said that???? Can you at least be forthright enough to accurately repeat what I've said rather than make assumptions or mistate my words.----Gimp


The American fighting man has to much spirit and knows how to improvise. From the Revolution to Iraq he hasusedboth giftsto get the job done. If we lose a war it has nothing to do with the will and the ingenuity of our fighting forces. Look homeward for the cause of that trouble.

I agree..........homeward in the halls and confines of our Government!----Gimp


Arrow>>>>>>

[Arrow]

Steve....

Be morecareful where you place your buts....

Why are you addressing me this morning?

You stated you were parting company with me yesterday...

afraid I'm going to die in the middle of the night and then you'll have to explain why you were so mean to me...????

[Arrow]

I'm sorry but I just don't understandthe attitude of those showing so much concern for the troops andthe war but showing so much thoughtless behavior toward those that have children there.

Every parent on this forum that has achild in Iraq lives it every moment of the day. That is a tad different than feeling upset when youwatch the news or read something that sets you off on this site.It's really more than a little condescending to believe that any one of us is more passionate, more concerned and more likely to be keeping their eyes open and their ear to the ground concerning anything that is going on in Iraq from policy to equipment needs than those that have children in country.

And how would you expect a parent to react when their child is wearing the uniform of this country and have someone state that the war they are fighting can't be won. Or that the war they are fighting is for nothing. I got chastised bythe LTfor saying once that I guess my husband died for nothin' in Vietnam. I didn't mean it and was being sarcastic but I was corrected in short order and told never to say that again.But it's ok for you folks to say the same right in the middle ofa war. And you expectthe parents of these children to keep their mouth shut and take it.

I don't get it and I never will. I guess I'm just way to hardcorewhen it comes to a fight.If someone I love is in a fightandabout to be done in it doesn't matter much to mewho started what.I'm going to back them until the fight is over.I'm darn sure not going to tell them they picked the wrong guy, they are way to small, and they are going to get thedowadidin knocked out of them.That's not what I call havin' someone'sback.

I think I come from a school of thought that is fast fading away in this country andtruth be told folks I'm looking forward to the train leaving the station.

As the old song says, "I've enjoyed as much of this as I can stand!"