Knew it would happen

[SuperScout]

Continued efforts to portray the totalitarian dictatorship of the North Vietnamese as just mere peaceful agrarian reformers, humming "kumbayahs", and brewing nuoc mam is just so much phoney bilge. The Communist Party of the North tolerated no objections or opposing parties, and to amply demonstrate their focused drive to emulate their Russian mentors, tried collective farming, ofr example, with the usual disastrous results. Those who opposed being forced to live and work collectively were slaughtered, with estimates ranging from 50,000 to 5 times that amount. The tyranny of the North was similar to the dictatorships of other communists's countries: there was never a flood of people wanting and begging to get into the "Workers' Paradise" - in fact, quite the opposite always took place, people fleeing desparately towards the beacon of freedom.

Immigration to the South was mainly by the better educated Tonkinese who had read of other repressive communist regimes' total intolerace to religion, particularly Christianity. The US Navy was directly involved in this massive migration, truly people voting with their feet, and those leaving were not just the mandarins, but common folk, merchants, and generally, practicing Catholics. One of the main instigators of this military assistance via the Squids was a former naval commander, Dr. Tom Dooley, who had seen the impending disaster in Haiphong harbor, and set the actions in motion, with the Cardinal of Boston's active intervention, to employ the US Navy as a means of transportation. Cardinal Spellman's ability to get the ear of JFK, who then ordered the Navy to help, was a primary key to the success of the flight of freedom seekers. I would invite those desiring more info to read Dooley's, "The Night They Burned The Mountain."

And before I continue, kindly let me dispel you gentle readers of the bogus notion that our President was appointed by the Supreme Court, as alleged. That's just so much juvenile-level libel and drivel - Bush won Florida's popular vote, therefore their electoral vote, therefore the election. Get over it!

If a personality cult wasn't and isn't still in effect, why did they rename Saigon "Ho chi Minh City"? Perhaps just a tad more research, from notable experts like Douglas Pike, Robert Scigliano, Donald Lancaster and Richard Butwell would reveal just the contrary notion about Ho. (Ho, not his real name, adopted that name from Vietnamese history, emulating such other stalwarts of decency as Arafat, Begin and others who assume the attributes of historical figures in order to appear something that they aren't.) There are also some recent high-level offcier defectors from the PAVN that validate the Ho worship, not to mention the stay-behind forces that were ordered to go to ground after the 1954 accords, and to wait until the right time to resurface. All of this was known or suspected at the time, and was a major reason why elections didn't go forward as planned and scheduled; this cadre of what became the Viet Cong could have thrown an otherwise good election to the communists.

[Packo]

I think that you TRY miss my point unless when you protested you burned property and carried NVA AND VC flags. If you did...then you are my enemy and we need never communicate again. I'm confident in knowing that you did no such thing. I marched in Washington with the VVAW after my return. The reason, obvious, what Andy said, we were not allowed to win so why kill more of my brothers. NONE OF US CARRIED VC/NVA FLAGS, NOR DID WE BURN BUILDINGS OR CREATE HAVOC IN ANY WAY. The right to PEACEFUL protest is what I was talking about. I paint nobody with any brush and never did I say "all protesters carried enemy flags and burned buildings etc." I really wish you would read what I write and not try to find things you can disagree with. I could pick apart tons of your stuff if I wanted to add my own inuendo....but I don't.

Larry, WWI, WWII, and Korea were all foreign wars we had no business getting into. We could have dealt with the Nazi's, and Japs, and never lifted a finger to help Europe or Asia. If FDR would have lifted the embargo on the Japs, no Pearl Harbor, no declaration of war, no American casualties. It was an Asian thing we had no business getting involved in. Korea was same same Vietnam. All the North wanted to do was unite with their brothers in the south. A civil war. Because of our involvement look how South Korea is screwed today. They have freedom, and a booming economy. They could be living like the peasent freedom fighters in the North. Happy with full bellies. The South Koreans I fought with were idiots for trying to force their way of life on the poor Vietnamese. I mean, what the hell did they know about Communists.

I give up. Surrender. The protesters were all honorable great people and we were the slobs and mindless goverment lackies who killed the fun loving Commies. Ya'll win!


Commrade Packo

If it had been posible to have elections that truly reflected what the SVN people(and/or the NVN people,for that matter) wanted it would have been very interesting to the American public.However,it seems to me that this information would have been of accademic intrest only because it seems that the truth of the matter is that none of the major players:NVN gov.,SVN gov.,China,USSR,US gov. really cared what the Vietnamese wanted.All believed that the "issues"(Democracy vs Communism,one country vs two countries)were more important.I'm unable to believe that any of the players would have been willing to change their stance or agenda based on what the Vietnamese people wanted.I think that that is a shame but I believe it's the truth.

To my way of thinking,the anti-war movement as a whole has little to be proud of and a very great deal to be ashamed of.I see no reason to believe that it shortened the war by so much as a minute,and may very well have both lengthened the war and made the likelihood of a favorable outcome(both from our viewpoint and the well-being of the Vietnamese people)that much more unlikely.

Peace,Love,and Understanding.Great concepts.It's a very great shame that the only connection the anti-war movement had with these concepts was to use them as recruiting propaganda.Shame they couldn't see fit to actually practice them.Predjudice and Stupidity were the actual watchwords for dealing with US servicepeople.Did it really show "Love and Understanding"to make phonecalls and/or write letters to families who had lost loved ones in VN expressing joy in their deaths?Were the letterbombs that were also sometimes sent an aid to "Peace"?

[MORTARDUDE]

Packo :

I was trying to keep the subject limited to Vietnam from 1954 - 1975, and not every other war of the 20th century !!! LOL...but I understand what you mean...It sure would help things if we could all get on a conference call for about 20 mins. Several of us mis-read or don't read what other folks write and say....me included..

I am done with this thread. Out.

Larry

[Arrow]

Doc...

You gave me another way of looking at CO'S that did not carry weapons.Your point is well taken. I have wondered at times how others have felt about covering them in a fire fight. Sis

[Arrow]

Packo.....Packo....

No you can't do that. You're the one that taught me that it don't mean nothin' to be surrounded even thoughI "be" a civilian and not a paratrooper I took it to heart. Now don't you go surrenderin' on me. Get back in here and fight!!!

And remember>>>>>

[1CAVCCO15MED]

Here's the thing: We went over there and did what we thought was our duty. Meanwhile a bunch of idiots in Washington combined with a bunch of MBA's posing as Generals were doing every thing possible to change the whole nature of war. The politicians were very devoted to the idea that the war would not be lost while they were in office. The generals were busy with the latest accounting techniques and establishing a quality control process both of which are still the bane of American business. Do more with less. If the quality is bad, it is the fault of the front line managers. Zero Defects means exactly that. There is no problem with top management. They are all wise and all knowing. Complaints are the signs of weakness in middle management. It was a perfect system. And it cost us the war. And it killed a lot of good kids. That is why I protested the war. Graves for glory. Boy does that ever suck when you are the medic and body bagger. Try knowing that while you are in the midst of a symphony of death. It will leave you howling at the moon. But here's the thing: I don't care anymore what any Vet of the war thinks about the war. It was a different year, a different decade, a different century, even a different millenium. It is time to just let it be. I got my opinion and others got theirs. I just love them all. If that sounds silly then so be it. I am too old to want anything but peace. PEACE

[BLUEHAWK]

Many many many of the protestors were either children, women (then exempt from practically everything military-related), middle-aged housewives, really old people, teen-agers, guys with legitimate draft exemptions (such as blindness and paralysis etc.), and (lest we forget) several thousand Vietnam Vets Against the War.

As usual in this sometimes sick existence, about 5% of ANY group will make the others look like idiots... and that is exactly what the radicals did from 1966 on.

It's 'bout TIME we talked about this...

[Bill Farnie]

Wow , what a great thread. Started with putting a rocker made in Nam together to everything from protesters to the so called elections in the South, Great reading. For what it's worth here are my opinions.

Who cares if Vietnam is importing products to the USA. Trade is a two way street and I've seen many times that when the USA trades with a country, inadvertently we also import our American ideals and the citizens get a taste of our freedom and who knows what can happen. The only thing I can't stand is the U.S. companies that have setup in countries like Nam only for the cheap labor. Good for the company?bad for the American working stiff.

The elections in the South were a sham and we all know that.

I suppose Ho Chi Minn was so "popular" because the people of the North had no other option if they wanted to stay alive.

The protestors on a whole sucked. I'll tell a little story and then you can see where I'm coming from. I grew up in a close knit Italian-American neighborhood and when I came home from Nam, my parents and the people in the neighborhood were proud of me, had a huge party, and really made me feel welcome. I met up with a guy who I used to hang with at the pool hall and he was going to Rutgers University at the Newark campus and belonged to a fraternity and asked me if I would like to go to a party and I said hey,why not. As most of us found out on coming home, our old clothes didn't fit and were outdated so I wore my dress greens with all the trimmings. Hey I was proud I served my country {and I still feel that way}. At the party I started to notice the looks I was getting and pretty soon I was getting called a baby killer and all the other clich?s of the anti-war movement. Needless to say a fight ensued and being out numbered we beat a strategic withwrawal.To my friends credit he had my back even though these were his frat brothers. I'm sure that most of these people were also going to protests to get laid and for the drugs but they still spouted the radical propaganda even though they themselves were not radicals. It took me a long time to get over that one little incident. I'm not lumping in the VN Vets who protested. Most of them had their brothers in arms in mind and truly wanted an end to the war to stop any more of them being killed.

[BLUEHAWK]

Dear friends and brothers and sisters...

Ahem...
Getting laid and consuming mind-altering chemical substances of one or several kinds does NOT and DID not, if I may so state, necessarily mean that one was or is a) a traitor to one's nation and people, b) a coward, c) a draft dodger, d) a communist-sympathizer or a Communist, e) a radical, f) a slacker, g) a vet/soldier/sailor/Marine hater.