Knew it would happen

[Keith_Hixson]

Of the violence being perpitrated by War protesters. Always seemed like: "Anarchist organizing" or the "non-violent pushing violence in the name of peace" Always seemed like they were the same as everyone else, just pushing their agenda but being hypocritical in the process. The Chicago riots were a classic example the "non-violent" anti-war becoming violent. There was something about it that didn't track.

Keith

[BLUEHAWK]

Yup... I was present at both Lincoln and Grant parks, those days... carrying my 2 month old daughter right into the "Battle of Michigan and Balboa"... without even knowing that was what was happening until it was way too late.

In BOTH cases, about 3-10 pretty raggedy looking guys did stupid stuff... such as try to pull down the American flag from a pole in Grant Park... such as mounting a patriotic equestrian statue a few hundred yards north... such as yelling at the Chicago cops (a group absolutely known for its nicey nicey attitudes, right? :-)... such as throwing hard sharp stuff at guardsmen and the
constablulary... well, pretty soon the gas was filling our free speech air, people were running around throwing punches and banging clubs on heads... and the rest of us (say, 9950 out of 10,000 present) were running for our freakin' lives and i was spitting in my daughter's eyeballs to try and neutralize the gas without actually being able to SEE her eyeballs... it was a disaster, and most everybody I spoke with afterward agreed that there was no call for those jerks to incite the big guns the way they did... but, I tell ya, most people from that era who were on the street were fighting the war for America too, almost all of us without ANY guns of any kind.

It went badly, and we lost.

[MORTARDUDE]

I still vividly remember watching the 1968 Democratic Convention on TV ( a year before I went to Vietnam ) and listening to the kids singing "The Whole World Is Watching", and the watching the Chicago cops kick ass, and just trying to make some sense of all of it, in the context of what Mayor Daley and the politicians were doing indoors.... Real strange Ju-Ju.

Larry

[Arrow]

This is only my view but I am inclined to believe that this war will be forever looked at through the prism of individual experience rather than the collective thought of a community. The length of the war, the changing political scene as it progressed, individuals coming home alone rather thanas units are some of the reasons why I have come to that conclusion.

My family was involved early on and home before 1968. The ultimate price waspaid by my family and is now being paid by my brother and his family in regard to that war.It has never occured to any member of this family that we should march in the streets in protest because of that price.

I was at first bitter about the use of Agent Orange but came to understand there was another way of looking at it's use. Some of you may be here today because it was used.

I teasedPacko about getting backin the fight and not surrender to the thinking of those that feel wewere completely wrong in Vietnam.The viewof this individualand her children andmy brother and his children is that we were and are citizens ofthe greatest nation on earth. We really don't have to defend our position.Both families werecalled to serve her and bothfamiliesknow we didwhat wewere asked to do with honor.It is my personal thought thatno one can do more andno one should do less.

Arrow>>>>>>

[39mto39g]

I guess it was a good thing that we had no protesters in My hometown, I don't belive that encounter would have went well for them.

Ron

[SuperScout]

Regarding the original startpoint for all this duscussion, I for one am glad to see us buying products made in Vietnam. Now, before you go off and jack a round in the chamber, hear me out!! As Bro Bill stated earlier, trade is a two-way street, and every opportunity that capitalism is imported into communist Vietnam means that the ultimate end of that regime is closer. For doubters, simply look at what happened to the former USSR - a little capitalism seeped in, and freedom grew, and those roots upturned the entire Wall. I too lament the loss of American jobs to anywhere overseas, with the following caveat: job creation and loss is a dynamic pendulum, never a static condition. Our space-race era created millions of new jobs, really high tech stuff, not burger flippers or seamstresses, but jobs that added enromously to our economy and to progress in general. I predict that there will be a commisserate surge in high tech jobs in the very near future; we may not add substantially in the manufacturing category, but many better paying jobs will be created in the technolgy field.

Chicago: those peace-loving, fun-seeking, playfully attired Flower Children purchased every available container of Easy-Off, that powerful and caustic household cleaner within 50 miles of Chicago. Golly gee, did these tie-dyed teeny-boppers really have that many ovens to clean? No, dear boys and girls, they used this stuff to make weapons which they later used to attack the Chicago cops. And golly gee, are we surprised that some of these peace-loving folks got their heads smashed, after spraying a caustic substance on a policeman?

[1CAVCCO15MED]

Thanks to James and Tom we know how much the USA culture is already taking over among the youth of Vietnam. I am sure they will follow the path of the Chinese "Communists". Speaking of the Soviets, I saw a very good program the other day. It was a concert by Paul McCartney in Moscow. The Beatles were a powerful influence on the youth of the USSR. The kids played the music and "defected in their minds". It did as much as anything to end Communism.

[frisco-kid]

jump in the mix until my name came up. After seeing it first hand, I don't see Communism staying alive and well in VN forever. Since we didn't make it to the North, I can only speak about what I saw in the South. Like James and I stated after our return from there, the Western influence is already HUGE there. From Mickey Mouse, to the internet, to MTV, to Western tourists. Also, Capitalism is alive and well there. Like others of you have stated, I too think this will kill Communism from the inside out. Most of the population today is 35yrs. old and younger. We killed off most of a generation, and what we didn't get the Commies did during the next 10yrs. after the fall of Saigon. They want to have all of the material things that they see in the rest of the world. They know to achieve this is to interact with the rest of the world, including enticing them to come to their country and spend their money through tourism or investment. This opens them up to the importation of IDEALS, also. Eventually it will prove to be a dry rot to Communism.

While there, I didn't totally embrace all of it. As soon as we cleared customs at Tan Son Nhut and was in the general population, the first thing I mentioned to Kath was that I wished I was armed. I felt vulnerable being surrounded by that many Vietnamese unarmed. Of coarse, this passed when I didn't see any of them armed, including the police.

The next thing was them keeping our passports at every hotel that we stayed at. Not copies, but THE ORIGINAL passport. Made me real nervous. This was our only link to the United States. I eventually found out that they did this to register us with the local police each night. The government always knew where we were, and we were not going to move around much on our own without them knowing about it.

When we visited the Cu Chi Tunnels we had to first sit through a 20min. propaganda film at the visitors center. This was an interesting video about the digging of the tunnels, but the commentary was blatant Communist propoganda bullshit. The gist of it was that the American agressors, unprovoked, attacked the peaceful people of Cu Chi. Through necessity and superior ingenuity they created the tunnel system and eventually drove the aggressor from their midst. I about walked out.

When we got up in the Central Highlands, it was obvious that not everyone was enjoying the equality of Communism. The Montagnard population were living well below the standard of the rest of the population. They were the laborers of the large plantations that we passed, and their housing reminded me of what the pre-Civil War slave quarters must of looked like. We didn't visit one of their ethnic villages. It was my understanding that we would have had to get permission to do so. My impression was that they were much like reservations.

In the cities, most of the poor were of families that were on the losing side. Our allies. Many of the cyclo drivers were ex-Arvn soldiers, for example. In Nha Trang I met one that had been the CO of an infantry company that fought in the Dalat area of the Central Highlands. Before the Army, he had been a school teacher. An educated man that spoke very good English. Now he makes about $40/mo. pedaling a cyclo. Quite a waste of Human Resources, I'd say.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad I went and had a GREAT time. James, Kath, and I plan on going back to see the places that we wanted to go to, but didn't make it to. I just take it all in with a grain of salt. Alot of it is a facade.

[MORTARDUDE]

Great post Tom !!! Thanks.

Larry

[frisco-kid]

Keep in mind the years that I served in VN. I never knew one grunt, myself included, that thought that a protestor was doing us any favors. We thought of them as unsupportive, undermining our morale, aiding the enemy, and prolonging the war. When most of us thought of a protestor, we thought of college students. Our peers. Early in the war, these were the bulk of the protestors. The ones that made the news, anyway. Some of the draftees that showed up when called felt that they were there in the place of one of these protestors who was evading the draft by taking the bare minimum number of college credits, majoring in some useless, obscure subject. They existed. I knew a couple. Protestors were never thought of as an ally. They were the THEM of US AND THEM.

I'm sure that there were many protestors out there with high ideals who believed in what they were doing. But back then, the general belief of the average grunt was that their NUMBER ONE priority was saving their own asses. I still believe that was true for alot of them. Especially as the war progressed. I'm not going to argue the point [don't mean nuthin', now], but I'm not 100% convinced that they shortened the war. I am convinced that they gave the enemy new hope and resolve.

I know that alot of this changed as the war progressed. More and more of the general public started voicing their opinions against the war, including some returning vets. I'm sure that eventually there were some grunts that agreed with the protestors, maybe having recently come from their ranks. Having served with paratroopers [all volunteers] fairly early in the war, I just didn't know any. I will never thank a protestor for protesting the war, supposedly on my behalf. That's just me.