Torture Iraq prisoners

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by Doc.2/47 Wasn't trying to "impress" you with my thoughts concerning the definition of veteran.Can't say that I was especially impressed with your definition either.Point is that both are personal opinions.

Must be a reading comprehension problem. Were you not trying to justify why you consider "sis" a vet.? I don't care about impressing you or any one else for that matter. As you have stated my opinion is just than an opinion. An opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one, yours just stinks more than others.

[Arrow]

Doc thanks for the back up. I'm wearin' your kind words like a smiling face for a job well done.

To allof us that are like minded on this particular side issue let's just drive on,don't mean nothin'.

"Nobody's shootin' at us and we aren't livin' under a bridge" -DMZ-LT-

Gettin' back to the topic...

Time to Cowboy Up! Trav those WI farmers grew some mighty good hemp back during WWII we are going to need us some good rope! See what you can round up for us k?

[39mto39g]

You Guys are trying to one up each other with the suggestion of an insult. Each post they get closer to the real thing, My question is, what happens when you all actually start throughing insults at each other. Who will win, the one with the most adjectives. Now Im not going to tell Grown men to do anything , but everyone has an opinion, sometimes opinions differ. Thats all.

And Hawk,,, If you fly a plane, I think that does make you a pilot. Just my opinion though.

Ron

[Boats]

To: sfc_darrel

You hit the nail right on the head my Mother had two boys in VN as did other Mom's. Mom's and families are some of the best veterans this country will ever have.

They've had to endure the changes in their kids when they came back either messed up from wounds or the internal ones that can't be seen and yet they try to understand and support their kids on these issues that they really didn't understand. Parents and families of soldier's then and now are the backbone behind each soldier.

Bravo for your earlier comments and I agree with you 110%.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by 39mto39g You Guys are trying to one up each other with the suggestion of an insult. Each post they get closer to the real thing, My question is, what happens when you all actually start throughing insults at each other. Who will win, the one with the most adjectives. Now Im not going to tell Grown men to do anything , but everyone has an opinion, sometimes opinions differ. Thats all.
And Hawk,,, If you fly a plane, I think that does make you a pilot. Just my opinion though.
Ron

Again I've been taken out of context. "I can fly in a plane, doesn't make me a pilot." That would make me either crew or a passenger. I didn't say I was flying the plane. But as you stated if you fly the plane you would more than likely be a pilot.
Read back a ways and see who started with the stupid comments toward myself. Again there are those who continue to taunt and drive this post off topic.

[SparrowHawk62]

Friends Praise Abuse Whistleblower
'The Way He Looks at It, He Was Just Doing His Job'
By DAVID B. CARUSO, AP

ABC News
Spc. Joseph M. Darby of Cresaptown, Md.

PHILADELPHIA (May 10) - The news that Spc. Joe Darby tipped off Army investigators to abuses in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison didn't come as a shock to those who know the 24-year-old soldier.

"He wasn't one that went along with his peers," said Robert Ewing, Darby's history teacher and football coach at North Star High in Boswell. The military policeman "didn't worry about what people thought."

Darby, who is still on duty overseas, was commended in a military report for promptly alerting superiors in January after discovering photographs of fellow 372nd Military Police Company personnel taking part in abuse of prisoners at the prison.

Darby's tip led to an investigation of practices at the facility that have outraged people around the world and changed the tenor of America's war effort in Iraq.

Darby "didn't realize that he had done anything that was super special," said sister-in-law Maxine Carroll. "The way he looks at it, he was just doing his job."

Carroll said the family is concerned some people will view Darby's decision to turn in fellow soldiers as traitorous, rather than heroic, especially in Cresaptown, Md., where he lives and where the 372nd is based.

"It scares you a little," she said.

The military said Sunday that Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, 24, of Hyndman, also from southwestern Pennsylvania, will be the first soldier to face a court martial in connection with the abuse. He faces trial May 19 in Baghdad.

The family didn't answer their front door Sunday and wouldn't comment when reached by phone. Sivits is the first of seven soldiers implicated in the abuse of prisoners at the prison.

In an interview late last month with The Associated Press, his father, Daniel Sivits, said his son was trained as a truck mechanic, not a prison guard, and would have gotten in trouble had he not followed orders to photograph the abused prisoners.

Jeremy Sivits' best man and former baseball coach - 32-year-old Jamey Ringler - said Sunday he thought that because Sivits grew up in a military family that he had believed following orders was the right thing to do.

"I'm sure he feels he was in the wrong, but it was beat into his head that he had to follow orders. So in a sense, in his mind, that was right," Ringler said.

About 25 miles to the northwest, friends and former neighbors said they are proud of Darby.

"There is just so much violence in the world, and someone has to stop it," said Gilbert Reffner, 50, who lived across the street from Darby when Darby was growing up. "Joe, he did his part."

The family moved to Jenners in the early 1990s, neighbors said, in southern Pennsylvania coal country just a few miles from the spot where an airliner hijacked by terrorists crashed on Sept. 11, 2001.

Darby worked evenings after school. He attended North Star High, then left to study forestry at Somerset County Vocational and Technical High School.

After he married his wife, Bernadette, the couple moved to Virginia, where he worked as an auto mechanic before enlisting.

Reffner described Darby as polite and respectful. He said the family had little money when he was growing up. "He didn't have much at all," Reffner said. "But he was brought up properly. He was brought up to know right from wrong."

Carroll said her brother-in-law does not realize that he probably changed the course of history when he alerted a superior to the photographs of Iraqis being abused.

"We told him we were on our way to New York to do the 'Today' show. He didn't believe it," she said. "I think he kind of thinks we were just putting him on."


05/10/04 07:37 EDT

[SparrowHawk62]

First Abuse Court-Martial Set
Prison Guard Will Be Tried May 19 in Baghdad
By ROBERT H. REID, AP

BAGHDAD, Iraq (May 10) - The first in a series of courts-martial in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse allegations will begin next week, trials that could bring new revelations on whether the mistreatment of Iraqis was an aberration or stemmed from pressure from commanders.

Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., a member of the 372nd Military Police Company, will face a military court in Baghdad on May 19 - less than a month after photos of prisoners being abused and humiliated were first broadcast April 28.

Both the speed of the trial's scheduling and the venue in the Iraqi capital underscore the military's realization that it must demonstrate resolve in prosecuting those responsible for a scandal that threatens to undermine the U.S. mission in Iraq and Bush's re-election chances.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, announcing the trial date, said the proceedings would be held in the Baghdad Convention Center and open to media coverage, although he indicated that TV cameras would not be allowed in court.

''It has not been our practice in the past to have cameras inside,'' he said.

The U.S. military normally allows family members, observers and print reporters to attend trials, Kimmitt said at a briefing.

"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts."
-Pierre Kraehenbuel, Red Cross

Sivits ''will be tried in an open hearing,'' Kimmitt said on NBC's ''Today'' show. ''To suggest that it's somehow public would give the indication that this is a show trial, no.

''The media will be allowed in the way the media is allowed in any open court-martial, which is the way we have been doing business for quite some time,'' he said.

In Geneva, Switzerland, the International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed its representatives saw U.S. military intelligence officers routinely mistreating prisoners under interrogation during a visit to Abu Ghraib in October. The ICRC's findings were in a confidential report released at its headquarters Monday.

President Bush said the mistreatment ''was the wrongdoing of a few,'' but the Red Cross report backs up with detail the agency's contention that U.S. prisoner abuse was broad and part of a system, ''not individual acts.''

''ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation of the persons deprived of their liberty with their interrogators,'' the report said.

Bush promised Saturday that ''we will learn all the facts and determine the full extent of these abuses. Those involved will be identified. They will answer for their actions.''

Kimmitt also said the military had launched an investigation into interrogation procedures at Abu Ghraib after soldiers accused of mistreating prisoners said they did so at the urging of military intelligence officers.

Sivits is one of seven soldiers facing charges but appears to be a lesser figure in the case. Some of the others will likely face a general court-martial, which can give more severe punishments than the ''special'' court-martial that will try Sivits. His trial could produce evidence for prosecuting others believed more culpable.

Asked if the special court-martial means that Sivits is cooperating with authorities and will testify against others, Kimmitt said, ''No, I don't think it says that at all.''

''I think what it says is that the convening authority, Lt. Gen. (Thomas) Metz, took a very hard look at what the investigators brought forward, what the chain of command said about this young man, and what the lawyers brought forward, and in his view, this was the most appropriate method by which to prosecute the crimes for which he is being accused,'' Kimmitt told NBC.

Sivits is believed to have taken some of the photos that triggered the scandal. His father, Daniel Sivits, said last month his son ''was told to take a picture, and he did what he was told.'' He said his son trained as a mechanic but found himself performing military police work for which he was unqualified.

The family said it had no comment Sunday morning.

Sivits was charged with conspiracy to mistreat detainees, dereliction of duty for failing to protect prisoners and maltreatment of detainees. Seven officers have received career-ending reprimands.

If convicted, Sivits could face one year in prison, reduction in rank to private, forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay for a year, a fine or a bad conduct discharge. Penalties could include only one, all or any combination of those punishments. Sivits will be able to chose between trial before a single military judge or a three-member panel of senior officers. He has the right to a civilian attorney and will have access to military counsel.

Several of those charged in the abuse have said they were directed or encouraged by Military Intelligence officers heading interrogations to ''soften up'' detainees before questioning.

In September, an expert team sent by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller - head of the Guantanamo Bay prison facility - visited Abu Ghraib and recommended that guards help gather intelligence about detainees.

On Nov. 19, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top operational commander in Iraq, issued an order taking tactical control of Abu Ghraib away from the MPs and turning it over to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, The New Yorker magazine reported Sunday.

That policy went into effect over the objections of Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, another military prison expert, who said the change was ''not doctrinally sound due to the different missions and agendas assigned to each of these respective specialties,'' the story said.

Miller, who in April was brought in to head Abu Ghraib in the wake of the scandal, defended his team's recommendations, saying last week that MPs' role in intelligence gathering was supposed to be only from ''passive'' observation, and he blamed Abu Ghraib's leadership for not following military guidelines.

Operational control over Abu Ghraib will be negotiated after Iraqis regain some sovereignty June 30, coalition spokesman Dan Senor said Monday.

Some Iraqi officials have called for an Iraqi role in the operation of Abu Ghraib and other detention centers.

Months before the scandal broke, the international Red Cross told top Washington officials it had problems with the treatment of prisoners in Iraq and in Guantanamo Bay, said Antonella Notari, chief agency spokeswoman.

She said ICRC President Jakob Kellenberger spoke about prison conditions in January with Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz.

''He raised concerns regarding detention in Iraq, along with Guantanamo and other locations,'' Notari told The Associated Press in Geneva.

The Red Cross report released Monday cites abuses - some ''tantamount to torture'' - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of ''imminent execution.''

''These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from person who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.'''

On Friday, the ICRC said it had repeatedly demanded last year that U.S. authorities correct problems at Abu Ghraib and other detention centers. The Americans took action on some issues but not others, it said.

''We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system,'' said Pierre Kraehenbuel, the Red Cross operations director.

Iraqis freed from U.S. custody since the war began in March 2003 have long told of abusive treatment including lying bound in the sun for hours; being attacked by dogs; being deprived of water; and left hooded for days.

U.S. lawmakers have warned that the most repulsive photos have yet to be released and have insisted the Army investigation should have repercussions for higher-ups, not just the MPs accused of abusing detainees.


05/10/04 12:29 EDT

[SuperScout]

I highly recommend that the original title of this thread be changed from "Torture..." to some more appropriate, rational, and logical word. What has happened is no more "torture" than a painted fence is art.

[39mto39g]

Can't change the title , can change every thing else but not the title.
I think this thread has become just a place to come and bitch about something, which is ok, by the way.

Hawk,--- either I missed the {in} in your original coment or you put one in later, I read it as If I fly a airplan that doesn't make me a pilot,

Ron

[Alfred Gepfert]

I once was forced to look after an american prisnor from our sister unit in Tay Nin, I was at Cu Chi when he was choppered in an Iwas told to keep him locked ih a conx container.well I led him to the mess hall got him fedan then let him shower,yes I was taking a chance with him,but he was hungrey an filthy,an yes I was armed,the next day the MPs came an took him,i felt good about treating him with dignity an trust,an I know he appreacated it. Had he been a VC or NVA he would have starved. Cant belive that they let them selves be photographed, "The only way three people can keep a secret is if two of them are dead"