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#51
06-14-2005, 11:51 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sir Scamp
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And you think the ENTIRE Armed forces support his failure of the Iraq "policy" he's put in place?? Let me offer up some "evidence" to the contrary Sir Blue. Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change is an unprecedented bipartisan coalition of 27 career chiefs of mission and retired four-star military leaders who have launched a nationwide campaign to press for the need for change in U.S. foreign and defense policy because they are deeply concerned by the damage the Bush Administration has caused to our national and international interests. The Honorable Avis T. Bohlen Assistant Secretary of State for Arms Control, 1999 Ambassador to Bulgaria, 1996 District of Columbia Admiral William J. Crowe, USN, Ret. Chairman, President?s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Committee, 1993 Ambassador to the Court of Saint James, 1993 Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1985 Commander in Chief, United States Pacific Command Oklahoma The Honorable Jeffrey S. Davidow Ambassador to Mexico, 1998 Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, 1996 Ambassador to Venezuela, 1993 Ambassador to Zambia, 1988 Virginia The Honorable William A. DePree Ambassador to Bangladesh, 1987 Director of State Department Management Operations, 1983 Ambassador to Mozambique, 1976 Michigan The Honorable Donald B. Easum Ambassador to Nigeria, 1975 Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1974 Ambassador to Upper Volta, 1971 Virginia The Honorable Charles W. Freeman, Jr. Assistant Secretary of Defense, International Security Affairs, 1993 Ambassador to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, 1989 Rhode Island The Honorable William C. Harrop Ambassador to Israel, 1991 Ambassador to Zaire, 1987 Inspector General of the State Department and Foreign Service, 1983 Ambassador to Kenya and Seychelles, 1980 Ambassador to Guinea, 1975 New Jersey The Honorable Arthur A. Hartman Ambassador to the Soviet Union, 1981 Ambassador to France, 1977 Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, 1973 New Jersey General Joseph P. Hoar, USMC, Ret. Commander in Chief, United States Central Command, 1991 Deputy Chief of Staff, Marine Corps, 1990 Commanding General, Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, 1987 Massachusetts The Honorable H. Allen Holmes Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations, 1993 Ambassador at Large for Burdensharing, 1989 Assistant Secretary of State for Politico-Military Affairs, 1986 Ambassador to Portugal, 1982 Kansas The Honorable Robert V. Keeley Ambassador to Greece, 1985 Ambassador to Zimbabwe, 1980 Ambassador to Mauritius, 1976 Florida The Honorable Samuel W. Lewis Director of State Department Policy and Planning, 1993 Ambassador to Israel, 1977 Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs, 1975 Texas The Honorable Princeton N. Lyman Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs, 1997 Ambassador to South Africa, 1992 Director, Bureau of Refugee Programs, 1989 Ambassador to Nigeria, 1986 Maryland The Honorable Jack F. Matlock, Jr. Ambassador to the Soviet Union, 1987 Director for European and Soviet Affairs, National Security Council, 1983 Ambassador to Czechoslovakia, 1981 Florida The Honorable Donald F. McHenry Ambassador and U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, 1979 Illinois General Merrill A. (Tony) McPeak, USAF, Ret. Chief of Staff, United States Air Force, 1990 Commander in Chief, Pacific Air Forces, 1988 Commander, 12th Air Force and U.S. Southern Command Air Forces, 1987 Oregon The Honorable George E. Moose Representative, United Nations European Office, 1997 Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1993 Ambassador to Senegal, 1988 Director, State Department Bureau of Management Operations, 1987 Ambassador to Benin, 1983 Colorado The Honorable David D. Newsom Secretary of State ad interim, 1981 Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, 1978 Ambassador to the Philippines, 1977 Ambassador to Indonesia, 1973 Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1969 Ambassador to Libya, 1965 California The Honorable Phyllis E. Oakley Assistant Secretary of State for Intelligence and Research, 1997 Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration, 1994 Nebraska The Honorable Robert Oakley Special Envoy for Somalia, 1992 Ambassador to Pakistan, 1988 Ambassador to Somalia.1982 Ambassador to Zaire, 1979 Louisiana The Honorable James D. Phillips Diplomat-in-Residence, the Carter Center of Emory University, 1994 Ambassador to the Republic of Congo, 1990 Ambassador to Burundi, 1986 Kansas The Honorable John E. Reinhardt Director of the United States Information Agency, 1977 Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs, 1975 Ambassador to Nigeria, 1971 Maryland General William Y. Smith, USAF, Ret. Chief of Staff for Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, 1979 Assistant to the Chairman, Organization of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1975 Director of National Security Affairs, Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs, 1974 Arkansas The Honorable Ronald I. Spiers Under Secretary General of the United Nations for Political Affairs, 1989 Under Secretary of State for Management, 1983 Ambassador to Pakistan, 1981 Director, State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research, 1980 Ambassador to Turkey, 1977 Ambassador to The Bahamas, 1973 Director, State Department Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs, 1969 Vermont The Honorable Michael E. Sterner Ambassador to the United Arab Emirates, 1974 Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs (Israel/Palestine Negotiations) -- 1971 New York Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN, Ret. Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, 1977 Commander in Chief, Allied Forces Southern Europe (NATO), 1975 Commander, U.S. Second Fleet, 1974 Illinois The Honorable Alexander F. Watson Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, 1993 Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations, 1989 Ambassador to Peru, 1986 Maryland ***** Another group that feels that the Irag War policy of the Bush Administration was a mistake. Veterans for Common Sense Veterans for Common Sense (VCS) was formed in 2002 by war veterans who believe that we, the people of the United States of America, are most secure when our country is strong and responsibly engaged with the world. Two years later, our organization has over 12,000 members throughout the United States. Board of Advisors Colonel James Kent, USA (Ret.) Colonel Kent began his military career as a Marine Corps artillery officer with the 11th Marines and later as Naval Gunfire officer with the 1st Anglico. Following medical school at University of Texas, he served in Vietnam with the 16th CAG, the 3rd Field Hospital, and finally as Americal Division Surgeon and Commander, 23rd Medical Battalion. Later he served as Chief of Psychiatry at the Fort Ord Hospital, then Commander, Ainsworth Clinic in Brooklyn. He retired after 34 years of service in 1993. Colonel Mary (Anne) Wright Colonel Ann Wright served 29 years with the United States Army and Army Reserve and spent 17 years as a diplomat with the United States Foreign Service. In March 2003 she resigned from her post as Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy in Ulaan Batoor, Mongolia in protest over the invasion of Iraq. A recipient of the State Department's Award for Heroism, she organized the evacuation of the U.S. mission in Sierra Leone in 1997 and was the one of the first U.S. diplomats on the ground to reopen the U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan in December, 2001. Louis DeCuir Louis N. DeCuir III is a Captain in the United States Naval Reserve. On active duty he served aboard USS TRIPOLI (LPH 10), USS TARAWA (LHA 1), and USS COOK (FF 1083). He executed an active duty recall assignment as Commanding Officer, Military Sealift Command Office, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba during Operation SEA SIGNAL, a humanitarian relief operation for Cuban and Haitian migrants. Later, he was recalled to active duty again as Director, Manpower, Personnel and Administration (J-1), Joint Task Force NOBLE ANVIL during the Kosovo conflict. Board of Directors Seth Pollack, Chairman Seth Pollack served eight years active duty with the United States Army, including four-years of overseas duty; front line action with the 1st Armored Division during the first Gulf War and participation with the International Forces in Bosnia in 1996. David Addlestone David Addlestone served in the Air Force Judge Advocate General Corps from 1966-1968, and is a graduate of the Duke University School of Law. After his military service and one year with the Public Defender Service of the District of Columbia, he represented military personnel while with the Lawyers Military Defense Committee in Saigon. Later, he was director of the Vietnam Veterans of America Legal Services Program (1984-1989), then co-director and later General Counsel of the National Veterans Legal Services Program (NVLSP, 1989-2004). He retired from NVSLP in December 2004. David DeBatto David DeBatto is a former U.S. Army Counterintelligence Special Agent and served in Iraq in 2003 during Operation Iraqi Freedom as team leader of a tactical human intelligence team in the heart of the Sunni Triangle. His team was tasked with tracking down senior Iraqi leaders and Baath party officials, Iraqi generals, intelligence operatives and weapons caches. After being wounded in Iraq, he returned to the United States in late 2003. Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA (Ret.) General Foote, a Vietnam veteran, served for over 30 years in the US Army; commanded at the company, battalion, brigade and major installation levels, and retired after serving as Commanding General of Fort Belvoir in 1989. She was recalled to active duty in 1996 to serve as Vice Chair of the Secretary of the Army's Senior Review Panel on Sexual Harassment. General Foote served from 1994-2001 as a Presidentially-appointed member of the American Battle Monuments Commission Erik K. Gustafson Erik Gustafson served with the Army's 864th Engineer Battalion based out of Fort Lewis, Washington. Gustafson served eight months in the Gulf War theater of operations, where he helped to construct hospitals, prefab buildings, roads and encampments for prisoners of war. In 1992 he left the military to pursue a degree at the University of Wisconsin and began working on human rights issues. In 1998, Gustafson moved to Washington, DC and founded the Education for Peace in Iraq Center (EPIC) to advocate for freedom and security in Iraq. Mr. Gustafson served on the National Gulf War Resource Center board from 1998-2000. Dan Fahey Dan Fahey was commissioned in the Navy through the ROTC program at the University of Notre Dame. Dan served in the Persian Gulf in July, 1991 onboard the USS Arkansas (CGN-41). From 1993 to 1998, Dan was a paralegal at Swords to Plowshares, a non-profit veterans advocacy group providing housing, counseling, job placement, and legal services to veterans in the San Francisco Bay Area. Dan has extensively researched the role of depleted uranium (DU) from spent munitions in veterans' health problems. Dan served on the Board of Directors of the National Gulf War Resource Center and the Military Toxics Project. Wayne Smith Wayne Smith is the former Executive Director and later, President of The Justice Project in Washington, DC. Prior to that, he served as President and CEO of the Black Patriots Memorial Foundation. Wayne was a combat medic with the US Army Medical Corps in Vietnam and was among the first group of trained therapists to work with Vietnam Veterans and their families. He has also worked as a counselor/therapist for the Veterans Administration as part of the VA's Vietnam Veteran Readjustment Counseling Program (Vet Centers). Since his experience in Vietnam, Wayne has been addressing issues regarding the causes and consequences of war, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and the legacy of the Vietnam War both in the US and in Southeast Asia. He has appeared on numerous radio and television programs including ABC Nightline, NBC News, CBS News and National Public Radio. He was among those featured in the 1999 Emmy Award winning documentary, "Vietnam: A Long Time Coming". ****** And more............................... Firing the people who were right, and then relying on the people who were wrong to implement the wrong policies, is a recipe for trouble. Just ask former Army Chief of Staff Shinseki. Who accurately predicted the insurgency if his plan for an additional 150,000 troops were not committed to the battlefield and subsequent occupation of Iraq. Rank and bile GI's speaking out, angry vets signing petitions, generals attacking him. George Bush's once-rosy relationship with the military is turning sour. - - - - - - - - - - - - By Eric Boehlert "What you have going into 2005 is the potential for some [political] forces, usually pushing in the direction of Republicans, to not be pushing so hard, or some maybe even be pushing towards Democrats," says Peter Feaver, military expert and professor of political science at Duke University. Feaver says Bush and the Republicans start out with the political support of the armed forces. "But if Iraq worsens --which by all appearances it seems headed that way, and if Bush faces hostile relations both on the ground overseas and economically at home -- then the military vote in the 2006 elections becomes more ambivalent." It's already easy to spot strains in the once unwavering relationship between the White House and the armed forces. The blunt assessments of the administration are often scathing. "[Bush] pats us on the back with his speeches and stabs us in the back with his actions," Charles Carter, a retired Navy senior chief petty officer, recently told a Knight-Ridder reporter. "I will vote non-Republican in a heartbeat if it continues as is." A recent posting on a Military.com chat room bulletin board is not atypical: "It is likely a lot of Active and Retired Military who supported this President will be looking for a strong option at the next election. We put our trust in President Bush and he has let us down." Even more stinging was this first-person Army account: "For the past six months, I have been participating in what I believe to be the great modern lie: Operation Iraqi Freedom." That was published a few months ago in the Peoria Journal Star, by a U.S. soldier named Tim Predmore serving on active duty with the 101st Airborne Division, based near Mosul in northern Iraq. The harsh words from military men are especially poignant "when you consider how Bush became president in the 2000 election by a few military absentee ballots," said retired U.S. Army Col. David Hackworth before he recently passed away. "I suspect a huge number of those overseas ballots will not be marked Republican in the next election." The reason is simple, said Hackworth, who was a White House critic and whose Web sites, Soldiers for the Truth and Hackworth.com, had been documenting the contempt many service men and women feel for the Iraq war planners. "Most military guys who understand war, professional soldiers, they recognize America is engaged in its largest and nastiest war. And like in Vietnam, they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel," he said. "My e-mail, overwhelmingly from soldiers and vets, says these guys are really pissed off about the handling of the war. And what's amazing is the huge number of folks from this group no longer relating to the Republican Party." Today's list of military complaints is long: Many fighting men and women are upset over how the war in Iraq has been conducted (i.e. trying to prosecute the war "on the cheap"); feel that forces are being stretched too thinly; think that Pentagon civilian planners are not listening to generals; worry that part-time National Guard and reservists are being asked to carry too much of a burden; and find the administration's rationale for the war slippery. They also seem to have a visceral dislike for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who's seen as having a vendetta against the Army, and think the Bush White House seems eager to send troops off to war yet reluctant to help Congress pass more comprehensive health benefits for disabled veterans. During a 1999 campaign speech at the Citadel military school in South Carolina, Bush complained that under President Clinton, military "resources are over-stretched. Frustration is up, as families are separated and strained. Morale is down." What about now? " This administration (Bushs') wants things both ways: To command great forces, without supporting them. To launch today's new causes, with little thought of tomorrow's consequences." The Bush crowd -- "have their strategy and don't care what the military thinks about how to conduct war in Afghanistan and Iraq," says Nider. One former senior military official recalls the cynical joke making the rounds inside the Pentagon just days after the Sept. 11 attacks: "If Saddam Hussein wasn't responsible for 9/11, he should have been, because we're going to nail him for it." It was being told among officers who saw exactly where the administration hawks were taking the war on terrorism, regardless of whether the targets were connected to actual terrorist attacks. According to one veteran military insider, Bush's political guru, Karl Rove, has been briefed about the growing political problem Rumsfeld is creating among military voters, but Rove made it clear that nothing is going to change since Rumsfeld has Vice President Dick Cheney's full backing. But for now, the frustration grows louder and louder as a traditional Republican bedrock community makes its feelings known about Bush. A few weeks ago, Larry Syverson, a Richmond, Va., father with two military sons serving in Iraq, was featured in a full-page New York Times ad. "Donald Rumsfeld Betrayed My Sons and Our Nation. It's Time For Him to Go," read the headline. It called for Rumsfeld's resignation as secretary of defense. Also a few weeks ago, Fernando Suarez, whose 20-year-old son Jesus was among the first fatalities in Iraq, told reporters, "My son died because Bush lied." In his Peoria Journal opinion column, the G.I. Predmore wrote: "There is only one truth, and it is that Americans are dying. There are an estimated 10 to 14 attacks every day on our servicemen and women in Iraq. As the body count continues to grow, it would appear that there is no immediate end in sight." He added, "I can no longer justify my service on the basis of what I believe to be half-truths and bold lies." And, ther's PLENTY of other "groups" of Veterans out there like "Operation Truth" and VAIW (Veterans Against the Iraq War) with thousands of members of former Gulf War and OIF and OEF that are speaking out against Bushs "WAR" policy! And at a Naval Institute address, retired Marine General Anthony Zinni, who served in uniform for 39 years and is the former CIC of CENTCOM, compared Iraq to Vietnam. Speaking of his contemporaries in the room, he said: "Our feelings and our sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice. We swore never again would we allow it to happen. And I ask you, Is it happening again? And you're going to have to answer that question, just like the American people are. And remember, every one of those young men and women that come back, and those who don't come back, is not a personal tragedy, it's a national tragedy." ************* I couldn't have said it better than General Zinni!
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 Gimpy "MUD GRUNT/RIVERINE" "I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. 
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#52
06-14-2005, 12:09 PM
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Pray tell Sir Blue...do you REALLY think that "both" these items could have (or would have) taught and discussed at length during "that" time to better bring a factual conclusion the answer??........Gimmie a break!-----------Both of these scholars were lucky their heads weren't chopped off! Much LESS given the opportunity to offer their conclusions in a nation wide public educational system. Had we "let the folks" of that time "make up their own minds" for Gods sake we'd STILL be looking for the "edge" of that "flat" world they believed in during that time. I figured you smarter than that. Especially being of the "museum" kind and all. 
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Gimpy "MUD GRUNT/RIVERINE" "I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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#53
06-14-2005, 04:22 PM
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Given a free choice, and no threat of torture, yes... I do believe most people would make up their own minds. Besides, when we come right down to it... how much difference actually, does it make to us to know that the world is round?
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#54
06-14-2005, 04:25 PM
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#55
06-15-2005, 06:47 AM
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Either way, your sinister way of attempting to use unscrupulous or untruthful methods to bolster your arguements does your "heros" in the Rethuglican party well! This must be a particular "trait" common within the ranks of many Bush supporters since it appears you all rely so frequently on this type of behavior, huh? Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change and Veterans for Common Sense were the ONLY two organizations that I gave you with detailed listings of members of board of directors or advisors. The full listing of Veterans for Common Sense members was not available. But, they have thousands of members. Did you conveniently FORGET about the VAIW, Operation Truth,VVAW who ALSO have literally THOUSANDS of members? And what about the recently deceased honorable American hero, former Col. David Hackworths comments, "Most military guys who understand war, professional soldiers, they recognize America is engaged in its largest and nastiest war. And like in Vietnam, they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel," and, ""My e-mail, overwhelmingly from soldiers and vets, says these guys are really pissed off about the handling of the war. And what's amazing is the huge number of folks from this group no longer relating to the Republican Party." More "head in the sand" fellows like you and our troops will NEVER be treated with the respect & dignity they deserve! Shame on you and those who sent them into this awful quagmire!
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Gimpy "MUD GRUNT/RIVERINE" "I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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#56
06-15-2005, 12:06 PM
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"If creation can only be taught in a church, then evolution can only be taught in a laboratory."
Jeez... "sinister, unscrupulous, untruthful"?  Really? Nobody has ever called me those names before. Glad my mom isn't around to read it (but, do NOT show that to my brothers! They're apt to take exception.) We were attacked, Gimpy... brutally, on our own continental soil, losing thousands of lives, at unimaginable expense to our treasury, and with promises of more to come. I, myself, did not send anybody anywhere. But, I would have, sooner or later, had it been my choice to make... and I would have done my best to lead from the front. Anyone who goes back to my earliest posts on PF will note that for a long while I did my very best to beseech our bretheren and sisteren here to give it all some more time, take it easy, think things through a bit more, be patient, allow for errors, calm the emotions, check the facts, be careful... and then, the command was given. Life changed, permanently. We are there now and we need to be successful, no matter who is with us or not... even Bill Clinton agrees with that statement (see his recent interview with Larry King.) Comparing this war strategically, tactically or logistically to Vietnam is fruitless, diversionary and, in my opinion, harmful. BTW, in museums it is absolutely against the rules to gild any lily... we just show what is as it is, even when we don't like it.
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#57
06-16-2005, 10:14 AM
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See ...there you go again! "Manipulating" and obviously using deceptive tactics once again to bolster your goofy arguement(s)! If you'll go back and "C-H-E-C-K" the ACTUAL QUOTE I USED.... **************** "Originally posted by BLUEHAWK Oh ye of little faith Given a free choice, and no threat of torture, yes... I do believe most people would make up their own minds. Besides, when we come right down to it... how much difference actually, does it make to us to know that the world is round? Oh, BTW, I counted about 15 out of the 35 or so on your list who are Vets, none currently serving." ********************** It's apparent I was speaking of your complete inability to digest or inaccurate comprehension of my information presented to you concerning the "numbers" of former & current military opposed to the War in Itaq! No where in that "quote" did I use .....................If creation can only be taught in a church, then evolution can only be taught in a laboratory." You folks will NEVER accept the truth or facts as a means to arrive at conclusions, will ya? Only use misinformation, deception and propaganda to further your causes. Did you not even READ the previous post where I offered further "evidence" of the overwhelming numbers of current & former members of our armed forces are opposed to this debacle??? Evidently not.....no surprise.........right?
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Gimpy "MUD GRUNT/RIVERINE" "I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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#59
06-16-2005, 03:48 PM
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You were
"exacraly..." right with your first sentence in your last post.
At LEAST you're right about something! :re:
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Gimpy "MUD GRUNT/RIVERINE" "I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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#60
06-16-2005, 05:31 PM
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Now where is the ACLU when we really need them? They've gotten the 10 commandments out of the court rooms and don't allow any prayer in school but are they doing anything to stop the "Creationists" from putting pseudo science into the classroom? "Creationism" to me is a religious tenant which has no business being in public funded schools as it is a religious belief! It is ceartinly NOT Science! For a Public school to teach children that the earth is 7,000 years old and that man coexisted with dinosaurs is downright stupid if not criminal! If you were to pack 2 of every species on the planet that have existed in the last 5,000 years into one area (supposing that they wouldn't eat each other under divine intervention) you'd fill an area the size of a small city. How in hell could you get them all onto a boat, and more importantly how would you feed them for 40 days and 40 nights? The story of Noah and the Ark was taken by the Jews directly from the Babylonian's story of "Gilgamesh and the Flood" during their extended stay under slavery in Iraq.
Bhuddists, Hindus, Sikhs, Animists, Shintoists, Quakers, Deists, Jews and even Roman Catholics don't belive that the bible is literal truth. They, for the most part, can understand that the earth is about 4.5 BILLION years old and that evolution has been going on for all of that time. What's wrong with believing that a Deity is behind all of evolution? We have scientific proof that evolution is a solid theory. What "Proof" is there of creationism? The fundamentalists like the Pentecostals, are behind this movement. It needs to be stopped before we have a "Pentecostal" State Religion.
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