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07-31-2004, 01:40 AM
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Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide
Here is a topic that is from the deer hunting sight we southern hunters talk about a lot of stuff some with religious content even . This one is a topic that will get your attention one way or another here goes .Special Delivery for Hogguide
? Hello, Locksley [ log out ] Tennessee Deer Talk ? General Forums ? TnDeer General Forum ? Special Delivery for Hogguide (Page 1) UBBFriend: Email this page to someone! This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 Author Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-25-2004 11:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I had an Abortion" - Pride T-shirts Available from Planned Parenthood http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/jul/04072304.html NEW YORK, July 23, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - International abortion giant, Planned Parenthood has a line of consumer products, coffee mugs, bumper stickers and t-shirts to spread their message and raise funds. The latest in their 'social fashion' line is a t-shirt for post-abortive women to "assert a powerful message in support of women's rights." The shirt says simply, "I had an abortion." The world's leading abortion-promoting organization has long striven to undo the stigma attached to women killing their unborn children, but with little result. Despite the enthusiastic support of politicians, rock musicians and movie stars, abortion still has powerful negative associations in the public mind. The idea of an abortion pride fashion statement has intrigued at least one Canadian journalist. David Warren, a prominent columnist for the Ottawa Citizen responded to LifeSiteNews.com by saying cheerily, "I think it's a great idea." "In fact, I think they should adopt a whole range of slogans. How about, 'I eat unborn babies for breakfast?Vote John Kerry.' Now those would really sell." The shirts can be purchased online for US $15.00 along with Planned Parenthood condoms, milk chocolate birth control packs, a calendar showing a young woman's tongue-piercing and a selection of "Choice on Earth" Christmas cards. http://store4.yimg.com/I/ppfastore_1802_395853 I knew HG would have some comments about these Idiots, CL -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged BigBuck10 8 Point Member # 1187 posted 07-26-2004 12:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- people will do anything to get their message across. the way things have been going i give it just a few months till theese shirts are being worn by high school girls for "fun" and what an uproar that'll be. -------------------- Long way to go - Short time to get there! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2207 | From: Summerville SC | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged ncslickslayer 4 Point Member # 2192 posted 07-26-2004 12:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I honestly wonder what the US will be like in 5, 10, 15 years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 129 | From: raleigh,nc | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-26-2004 12:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Answer - L.A. -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-26-2004 12:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where are all the children, where have they all gone.? Where are our brothers and sisters where are our friends that will never be.? Why are there unfulfilled lives barren and the bitter women their true nature now beyond reach? Where are our great leaders and generals and the kind hands of the good nurse.Why has this greatest generation never been born .Why its the great tragedy of our age the liberal decievers have taken them all away.What has been will return what is now will happen again.The exposure of the young children shall be again. The great doctors shall do harm, their great oathes to do no harm forgotten to their great shame.There is nothing new under the sun for time repeates itself . The great Romans destroyed their children why must we now do the same.Time marches on but oh how things they do stay the same.God help and protect us for we know not what we do. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged farmin68 8 Point Member # 3330 posted 07-26-2004 08:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The abortion business is a multi-billion dollar per year business. What scares planned parenthood is that they will one day be put out of business. -------------------- One by one, the penguins are stealing my sanity -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1585 | From: one ofTN's former number 1 deer counties | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-26-2004 08:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope not to offend anyone with the following post. I am a man and I don't see how it is feasible for me to impose my will on any woman who wishes to have an abortion. I lost the right to impose my will when I made her pregnant. Please don't take it as I agree with abortion, I DO NOT. I just do not understand how so many males feel it is ok to impose our will on a woman and her body/life. I do understand the religious side of it. Lets say your 18 year old daughter is to attend Harvard with a full ride all the way through medical school and comes home pregnant 1 month prior to leaving for Harvard. She came to you and said "daddy I want an abortion" What would you do? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-26-2004 08:35 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me personaly i am pro choice. it's no one elses bizness what other people do.. See thats whats wrong with todays society. They spend to much time worring about everyone else and not them selfs. And to tell me about religon is a joke. Because how many people Die in the name of religon. I mean if women wants to get an abortion it's her choice. I mean just cause some old fart that sits on his high horse can make decision for people he would never accociate himself with, be making there life choices for the,...... But thats just my 2 cents ......... -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-26-2004 08:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good posts jasonkb4 and baldntatted. I believe that type of medical procedure is up to the individual. If their religious beliefs say it is wrong, then don't do it. If you don't feel it is wrong, morally, then do what you feel you must. That is a private decision between the parents, their doctor and their God. -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Knox Hntr 4 Point Member # 2484 posted 07-26-2004 08:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: That is a private decision between the parents, their doctor and their God. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I strive to try and understand both viewpoints on this. For the Pro-life group, the fetus at any stage is considered a human being with all of the same rights as you or I. If that is the belief, then abortion is truly viewed as murder, obviously a parent cannot legally kill their 2 year old and deal with it only between the parents, doctor, and God. So the battleground becomes the definition of at what moment the developing child actually becomes a person with rights. The furthest left wing extremists say not until birth, while there is an extreme contingency on the other side that believe even the use of birth control is interfering with the process of life, and then there's everything in-between. All I can say is that I'm glad I don't have to make the call. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 448 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-26-2004 08:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't speak of the religeous aspects of abortion. I'm not an expert in that area. My problem with abortion that I can defend, is the growing trend int he world for people to avoid taking responsability for thier actions. If a person has a full ride to Harvard, I would assume they are smart enought use protection and not get pregnant. Don't risk your educational future on having unprotected sex. More and more we reduce or eliminate the results of poor decisions. Resposability and accountability has all but been eliminated in today's society. I have problems when someone decides to destroy a life to erase the results of a poor decision. They go ont he next day, having no accountability for thier actions. There is adoption, however flaud it may be. And there is night jobs and other colleges. If a person gets pregnant and looses a scholership, They can accept the choice THEY made and get a night job, go to a community college and stop making exuses for their failure and carry on. Those that have the drive to succeed will succeed regardless of what cards they are dealt. Those that are walking through life looking for a reason to quite, are destoned to fail and any exuse will do. IMO CL -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-26-2004 09:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with you CL but what would you do if it was your daughter, you raised her "right", and this dilemma presented itself? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-26-2004 09:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife and I have discussed that a few times. Ourt daughter is now 13 and getting close the that age. All we can do is teach her to accept resposibility. Unfortunately, it's her decision. I would hope she would buck up and accept the results of her poor planning and we would help. But we would NOT raise it for her. She would finish school while working evenings and weekends. She would go on to further her education while working twice as hard as those without children and she would emerge a stronger person as a result. Or she could choose to abort and go on in denial and act as though it never happened, learning nothing in the process. The decison to kill an innocent life to cover your own mistake should not be taken lightly. CL -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-26-2004 09:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Crappie Luck2, It isn't always a lack of responsibility. No birth control works all the time. I haven't seen much hard data on the subject (because that type of information is rarely released to the public), but a fairly high percentage of those seeking an abortion are actually married women. By the way, it isn't just the extreme left that that believes life (and the acquisition of rights) begins at birth. That is the law in this country. -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-26-2004 09:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't doubt it. A friend of the family got pregnant while on the pill. It happens. But it's my opinion, that a married woman is in an even better position to make other choices (i.e. adoption). I would suspect, the inconvenience would be the leading factor in that role. However, Married women are not the majority of the "pro-choice" activists and I doubt they would be in the market for an "I had an abortion" T-Shirt If there is a medical reason, such as a risk for the woman to carry, that is different. A medically prescribed abortion is different subject. -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged Knox Hntr 4 Point Member # 2484 posted 07-26-2004 09:44 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: By the way, it isn't just the extreme left that that believes life (and the acquisition of rights) begins at birth. That is the law in this country. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not entirely. There is the case right now of the woman being charged with manslaughter in the death of her unborn child for refusing to have a c-section that would have saved the babies life. I don't think you'll find many people that support the notion that a child is not a child a week before birth. Now, how far that notion extends from the due date is the gray area. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 448 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-26-2004 09:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For most all of us here at TnDeer, who believe that killing an innocent person is murder and should be against the law, and most of whome are generally pretty logical, the dividing line on this issue will be on whether or not you believe that a fetus is a human person or not. If a fetus is a human person, then it has the same rights as the rest of us (even if it cannot exercise all of them) and it deservest the same legal protections, i.e., killing it is murder. If a fetus is just a piece of tissue, a growth like cancer or a parasite, and it is not a human individual, then it deserves no protection or special laws about it any more than having an ungrown toenail removed or a wart burned off does. Medical science cannot--and admits that it cannot--answer the question of when life begins. Many of the qualities and factors that are used to determine whether a person is "alive" are present in a fetus. Some of those indicators are not present. Therefore, in my opinion, laws allowing the destruction of a fetus are akin to having a laws that expressly permit one to shoot a high-powered rifle toward a nearby house or subdivision unless or until someone proves that at that time there are people in them. A house of subdivision may or may not have a person(s) in it, but considering the gravity to killing an innocent person and the need to protect life (the most fundamental human right), it is just not an acceptable risk. I believe in a woman having the choice to do whatever she wants with her body. If she wants to install spikes in her skull, or cut off her ears, or amputate her legs and install artificial ones just because she wants to, that's her choice to make. However, I personally believe that a fetus is a human person, and so I believe that no scholarship to Harvard, financial struggle, or embarrasment is any more of a justification for an abortion than such would justify these women we see on the news who dump their six-hour old baby in the toilet or dumpster. Both are murder. And, even if my religious beliefs did not influence my analysis of whether a fetus is a human, I would believe that until science is able to show to high degree of conclusiveness that a fetus is NOT a human life, allowing its destruction would permit just too high a risk of killing an innocent person. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged TNhunter 16 Pointer Member # 294 posted 07-26-2004 09:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Talking about a scarlet letter. I don't think they'll sell many of those shirts (well maybe only out in SF - they'd be some of the only ones on the freakin planet that would be proud to do it). As far as a woman's choice - I feel like her choice should end when she chooses to let the dude in her. Once that happens if she turns out pregnant she should either take on the responsibility or give the child up for adoption. -------------------- TNhunter "You might be a turkey hunter if..." Check it out - see if you are one! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kenny....keyhunter.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1178 | From: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-26-2004 10:45 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok Q What if the women is raped and gets prego, because of it? Should she Havta raise the bastard child???... And If they can't tell if a fetus is not human. how Can they tell if it is? same cenerio just on the other side of this debate? And What if a women gets prego on the pill. and the "human" has deforamties because of the ingreadeance in the pill. Then what suffer for that child that may have a far less then a normal life? >>> just woundering<<<<< Oh and i don't think it's right that they passed them pro life licence plates in tn..Once agian there tring to push there beliefs on the rest of us...You don't see the rest of us putting hunt or die as a plate? well unless it's personlized lol -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-26-2004 10:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: Ok Q What if the women is raped and gets prego, because of it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard that argument before. But really, how common is that? Of course she could have the option, but that hardly supports a college kid's "right" to bed frat boys, get knocked up and avoid the results of poor judgement. That's like saying "all cashiers should be able to steal out of the till, becasue sometimes other cashiers get robbed and have to give the money away" As I stated, medically prescribed abortions are a different subject. this would come close to falling in to that catagory. -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged nsauceman 6 Point Member # 2068 posted 07-26-2004 11:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More and more, humans find reasons to shirk responsibility. Pro-Life? NO, Pro-Choice? NO Pro-Responsibility?? HECK YES!!!! With all the contraceptive devices out here, if you choose to have unprotected sex, you should take responsibility for the child..raise the child yourself, or put the child up for adoption..DO NOT abort the child. If the child was conceived as a result of rape, then there MUST be a report filed before abortion. -------------------- God Bless, Always a servant. Norm Sauceman President/Founder DHNA http://www.dhna.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 658 | From: Cookeville | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged camohunter 4 Point Member # 2242 posted 07-26-2004 11:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Crappie Luck2: Answer - L.A. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bwahahahhhhahaaa.....funny...but sadly enough probably true -------------------- You can't kill 'em if you don't hunt 'em!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 279 | From: murfreesboro, tn, usa | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged hcahunter 6 Point Member # 2843 posted 07-26-2004 12:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife is pregnant with our third child, a boy. She is 23 weeks along. Sometimes in the evening when she's laying on the bed I can feel him kick and move. If her pants are too tight he kicks back or if she has a cup of coffee he goes nuts. You can't tell me he's not alive and cognisent. While I believe in a womans right to choose I do not support abortion. Many of you are saying well what if it was rape, or what if birth control failed or what about medical reasons. It doesn't really matter to me what the reason is behind it. It's the womans choice and desicion to make. Before you start going off on me let me add this. PEOPLE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. We had our first daughter at age 19. We have worked hard all our lives to try and provide for her. Today we have a nice home 2 kids and another on the way. I can't even begin to think of what it would be like if she had had an abortion. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is the womans choice with what she does with her body, but everyone needs to take responsibilty for their own actions. -------------------- I may grow old but I'll never grow up. HCAHunter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 514 | From: Antioch | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-26-2004 12:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See thats the thing now a days people younger than me I'm 30 have no reason for taking care of there own action's there most of the time the same people who's mommy and daddy pay for there brand new truck pay the insurance. And all other kinda of things when i was a kid we a 1175 arce 500 cow dairy farm Which ment long hard hours learning responsibilty .. Which they don't or didn't have to earn themselfs. Which is return gives them no responsibilty. So they can go out and Hump like a bunch of rabbits and not havta fess up to any of there action. -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-26-2004 01:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by hcahunter [and others]: ...I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is the womans choice with what she does with her body, but everyone needs to take responsibilty for their own actions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is precisely the fulcrum upon which this debate turns--if all debaters are logical and believe that there is never a justification for taking an innocent life: That is, is the fetus just a piece of "the woman's body," or is it a seperate, individual, human life. One cannot logically propose that a fetus is a human life AND propose that it is just part of the mother's body and hers to do with as she sees fit. "But, they're physically attached, so that giver her the right," you say? Does physical, biological attachment give one Siamese twin the power or right to independently decide to have the other twin severed, even when that means high probability of death? Of course not. So, one either (a) does not believe that a fetus is a human life, or (b) does not believe that all innocent humans are worthy of the protection of the law. Badntatted, you ask a reasonable question: "If science cannot determine when life begins, doesn't that same limitation apply the pro-life position?" The answer is yes, it applies. However, as I discussed previously, if there is a fifty-fifty chance that a fetus is a human person, that is a risk that cannot be ignored. It is like a drive-by shooter firing an automatic weapon into a house because they don't know if anyone is there. It's always okay to refrain from firing, but never okay to take that risk. There is no other right that outweighs the right to life--not the "right" to go to Harvard, or the "right" not to be embarrassed or humiliated, not the "right" to spend your money as you see fit. Otherwise, we would have not problem with the mother of a one-day-old baby who drowns it in the toilet so she can finish college, nor a problem with a blackmail victim who shoots his blackmailer to prevent paying out money or facing scandal. The right not to be killied is an absolute right unless it threatens another innocent life. If you are willing to compromise on that absolute, then Hitler was not fundamentally wrong, nor Stalin, nor the 9-11 terrorists. So, the burden of proof regarding the beginning of life must rest on those who desire to take the risk, since the implications of taking that risk are too great to be morally outweighed by any other considerations, no matter how unpleasant or emotionally difficult they may be. I'm an imperfect person who has made mistakes. I've been a lot closer than you might think to standing in the shoes of someone that would want abortion to be morally and legally permissible. Please don't think that I am making a judgment against anyone based upon what I want or the choices that I or they have made. I am only discussing what the law should be, based upon standards outside of my preferences. It would be a sad day indeed if I was or thought I was the standard for much of anything! Thanks all for keeping the conversation so respectful. I've seen a lot less emotional ones get far more disagreeable in a big hurry! Author Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide RUGER moderator Member # 327 posted 07-26-2004 01:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not even going to get into an Abortion debate, but I will say this. No matter what your feelings are on the subject a t-shirt like that is truely tasteless, end of story. -------------------- Have you pennied your poacher today? http://www.tndeer.com/pennies.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 31655 | From: South Fulton, TN | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-26-2004 01:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by RUGER: ... No matter what your feelings are on the subject a t-shirt like that is truely tasteless, end of story. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged hogguide Moderator Member # 599 posted 07-26-2004 03:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the Special Delivery. I will interject my 2 cents worth and chime out on this because arguing abortion is fruitless with folks who see nothing wrong with murdering a baby. BSK..I REALLY thought you were above condoning murdering a baby. Baldandtatted...Why should a innocent child pay for the crime of the father?? Folks condoning baby murder shows how reprobate and desensitized our world has come. Children are seen as objects void of life and needs unless they are truly wanted by their parents. To those condoning it.. You need to take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself where you were when you lost your heart and your sense of right and wrong. -------------------- "You aint had fun until you grab 200 pounds of bristles and tusks with one hand and a cold steel blade in the other"...."The South's Original Extreme Sport" www.tnboar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 5763 | From: "Jim Town" | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged MWP_N_Cookeville 16 Pointer Member # 56 posted 07-26-2004 04:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unlike the gay marriage discussions we've had there is definetly a "victim" during an abortion, and in the same vein that a persons right to freedom and choices ends where those rights interfere with anothers right to freedom and choices, and in this case life itself, I can not support abortion except in rare cases. The courts in this country are full of hypocracy regarding this issue, a woman was charged with manslaughter for refusing a C-Section which may have saved her child, yet she legally could have aborted the same child. In one instance perhaps she trusted in God to provide a way for the child and mother to survive a stressed yet normal delivery, yet in the other the mother can actually order the child to be killed. What a convaluted mess... Personally, I believe life begins at conception, and that abortion should only be legal in case of rape or if the life of the mother is in very serious jeopardy. The mother to be made her choice when she chose to have sex. If she wasn't open to the possibility of becoming pregnant she should have kept that aspirin between her knees... -------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. --Thomas Jefferson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3261 | From: Cookeville, TN, USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged steven stone 4 Point Member # 3521 posted 07-26-2004 05:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How in the world could anyone think that abortion is ok? Abortion is a terrible thing. Shame on yall for supporting such a terrible practice. -------------------- WELCOME TO AMERICA! NOW SPEAK ENGLISH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 296 | From: fentress county | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-26-2004 05:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most young does dont know what they want except to be loved. They seek love but only get sex from a lot of us bucks, because true love is only given by our father in heaven. An earthly father and mother is the closest thing to true love on this earth but some are even lacking in those feelings. Only later in life is the true meaning of there purpose reviled to does,by then it is to late for some of them.There are things that can never be quenced one is the desert for the want of water, another is the woman longing for the unfulfilled desire for children. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Joshbraun 6 Point Member # 2173 posted 07-26-2004 06:13 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not know the medical options available for the timing of abortions, but with the technology these days who is to say that a fetus becomes a legal person after it is in the womb for 9 months. There are many instances that premature babies are born way before the 9 months. How in the world can people say that it is alright to kill an unborn child??? I know that people have the right to stay out of other peoples business, but come on I don't see why anyone know matter what they believe in or don't believe in, can say that it is alright for people to kill unborn kids. If murder is against the law, so should abortion be. Life should not be based on what is convenient for us. -------------------- The wilderness is the preservation of the world.... (Thoreau) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 546 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged DEER ASSASSIN 8 Point Member # 2981 posted 07-26-2004 06:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- if it has a heart beat and you stop it it is murder. those tshirts are as stupid as the people wearing them -------------------- IF YOU CAN'T HANG'EM ON THE WALL HANG'EM BETWEEN YOUR TEETH! L.C. DEERASSASSIN7@AOL.COM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2459 | From: KINGSTON SPRINGS TN | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged spctbone 4 Point Member # 3026 posted 07-26-2004 07:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK MEN!! I haven't seen one doe respond to this post..HMMMMMMMMMMM??? makes you wonder How can we as men sit here and contemplate something we will never have to deal with on a PERSONAL level. Me personally i beleve it is murder! POINT BLANK but who am i to decide how a 13 yr old girl who was gang rapped and ended up with child feels. I know that if i was in her shoes i would more than likly have one. BUT NO man knows what a woman goes through when she is rapped! I have 3 beutiful children that i would DIE AND KILL for. BUT WHO ARE WE as a man who cannot have a child to make this choice? BUT HEY THAT'S JUST MY 1 1/2 cents -------------------- TAKE A KID HUNTING OR FISHING! YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING YOUR SELF. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 373 | From: Oliver Springs | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged TNhunter 16 Pointer Member # 294 posted 07-26-2004 07:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I hate is the double standard - like mentioned above a baby is born several weeks to a couple of months premature and we now have the technology to keep that baby alive and nurse it to health. Right down the hall there are babies being killed at the same age. Also - how in the heck can it be legal to abort a child since they claim it isn't a human yet and has no rights and then someone gets tagged for double murder for killing a pregnant lady and her unborn child. Looks like to me for all those that have been convicted of two murders they SHOULD have 100% grounds of appeal and have their freakin cases thrown out of court. Myself I feel abortion should be illegal and if someone does kill a pregnant lady - they should face double the punishment. Maybe that is the way to finally get this issue before the Supreme Court again. And this time maybe they'd get it right! -------------------- TNhunter "You might be a turkey hunter if..." Check it out - see if you are one! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kenny....keyhunter.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1178 | From: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-26-2004 07:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We as men must face the fact that we cant fence sit and say not for me to decide. Not any concern of mine let the does worry about it. That is one thing that is going wrong with our sociaty we might not be able to decide what women do but we can sure let them know how we feel. QUIT BEING WHIMPS TELL IT LIKE IT IS LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY WILL. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 04:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Consequences of Roe v. Wade 44,670,812 Total Abortions since 1973 In 2000, more children died from abortion than Americans died in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, the Korean, Vietnam and Gulf Wars combined. There were over 3,600 abortions per day in 2000, 151 per hour, one every 24 seconds. In that same year, for every 1,000 live births, there were 306 abortions for every 1000 live births. Year AGI CDC 1973 744,600 615, 831 1974 898,600 763,476 1975 1,034,200 854,853 1976 1,179,300 988,267 1977 1,316,700 1,079,430 1978 1,409,600 1,157,776 1979 1,497,700 1,251,921 1980 1,553,900 1,297,606 1981 1,577,300 1,300,760 1982 1,573,900 1,303,980 1983 1,575,000 1,268,987 1984 1,577,200 1,333,521 1985 1,588,600 1,328,570 1986 1,574,000 1,328,112 1987 1,559,100 1,353,671 1988 1,590,800 1,371,285 1989 1,566,900 1,396,658 1990 1,608,600 1,429,577 1991 1,556,500 1,388,937 1992 1,528,900 1,359,145 1993 1,495,000 1,330,414 1994 1,423,000 1,267,415 1995 1,359,690 1,210,883 1996 1,360,730 1,221,585 1997 1,335,000 1,186,039 1998 1,319,000 * 884,273 1999 1,314,000 * 861,789 2000 1,312,990 ** 857,475 2001 ? 1,312,990 2002 ? 1,312,990 2003 ? 1,312,990 Abortion in the United States - Statistics ? There have been over 43 million abortions since 1973. ? The annual number of abortions went from 744,600 in the first year of legalization, to a high of over 1.6 million in 1990. In 1997, there were 1,312,990. ? There were nearly 3,600 abortions per day in 2000, 149 per hour, about one every 24 seconds. ? For every 1,000 live births, there were 306 abortions in 1997. ? There were more that 140,000 second and third trimester abortions in 2000. ? In 2000, more children died from abortion than Americans died in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, the Korean, Vietnam and Gulf Wars combined. ? A survey of women seeking abortions indicated that only 7% of women cited typical ?hard cases? (rape, incest, or some health concern with either the baby or the mother) as the primary reason they were seeking abortion. ? A June, 1999 Wirthlin Poll found that 62% of respondents support legal abortion in only three or fewer circumstances: when the pregnancy results from rape or incest, or when it threatens the life of the mother. ? At an average cost of $372, the abortion business is a $400 million a year industry. ? Nearly half of all abortions are obtained by women who have already had at least one abortion. In 1994 and 1995, women who had already had 3 or more abortions obtained 7%, or nearly 100,000, abortions each year Diary of an Unborn Baby ? Day 1 ? fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins ? Day 6 ? embryo begins implanting in the uterus ? Day 22 ? heart begins to beat with the child?s own blood, often a different type than the mother?s ? Week 5 ? eyes, legs, hands begin to develop ? Week 6 ? brain waves detectable; mouth, lips present; fingernails forming ? Week 7 ? eyelids, toes form; nose distinct, baby kicking and swimming ? Week 8 ? every organ in place; bones begin to replace cartilage, fingerprints begin to form; ? Weeks 9 and 10 - teeth begin to form, fingernails develop; baby can turn head, frown ? Week 11 ? baby can grasp objects placed in hand; all organ systems functioning; the baby has fingerprints, a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation ? Week 12 ? the baby has all of the part necessary to experience pain, including the nerves, spinal cord and thalamus; the baby is nearing the end of the first trimester ? Week 17 - baby can have dream (REM) sleep ? Week 20 ? the earliest stage at which partial birth abortions are performed The United States Senate has never debated or voted on fetal homicide legislation, but that has not stopped John Kerry, the frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination, from pronouncing his opposition to it ? a position that has pitted him against Sharon Rocha, mother of Laci Peterson and grandmother of Conner Peterson. According to a just-released Gallup poll, 57 percent of Americans are paying attention to the Peterson case, significantly more than any other judicial proceeding currently underway. Scott Peterson is charged with two murders, those of his wife and unborn son. That's because the crimes occurred in California, where, since 1970, the law has applied the same consequences to the murder of a "fetus" as to the murder of a born human being. Indeed, the California supreme court has specifically held that the simultaneous murder of a pregnant woman and her "fetus" also falls within a second law that makes a defendant eligible for capital punishment if he kills -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged richmanbarbeque 6 Point Member # 2893 posted 07-27-2004 05:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by hogguide: Folks condoning baby murder shows how reprobate and desensitized our world has come. Children are seen as objects void of life and needs unless they are truly wanted by their parents. To those condoning it.. You need to take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself where you were when you lost your heart and your sense of right and wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 656 | From: spring hill,tn | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged richmanbarbeque 6 Point Member # 2893 posted 07-27-2004 05:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by spctbone: OK MEN!! I haven't seen one doe respond to this post..HMMMMMMMMMMM??? makes you wonder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't make me wonder.Sit down with a lady that will admit to having an abortion.But be prepared for a lot of crying and exspressed pain.Folks sit and think about how an abortion is conducted,think about the bond that has been made between that mother and child.This is started at conception if you don't believe me ask someone who has ever had a miscarriage. I am glad my mother didn't even think about an abortion. To see my kids being birthed into this world I knew right then and there that God is an amazing creator and for me to undo what he ultimately did would be a painful crime. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 656 | From: spring hill,tn | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged hogguide Moderator Member # 599 posted 07-27-2004 07:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spctbone... Would you save a child you saw that was about to be ran over by a truck..or should that be left up to THEIR parents?? ...... Abortion isnt about a woman and her BODY,..it is about killing a separate life , a CHILD. There is no logical way to justify it. -------------------- "You aint had fun until you grab 200 pounds of bristles and tusks with one hand and a cold steel blade in the other"...."The South's Original Extreme Sport" www.tnboar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 5763 | From: "Jim Town" | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 08:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by spctbone: ... How can we as men sit here and contemplate something we will never have to deal with on a PERSONAL level. ... who am i to decide how a 13 yr old girl who was gang rapped and ended up with child feels. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're right spctbone, laws should just be based on how one feels--not even what they THINK or BELIEVE, just what they FEEL. So, it's okay for the mother of a two-day old baby to drown it because she FEELS devestated and can't handle being a mother, and it's a-okay for a man to beat his wife because he FEELS angry, and it was just fine for Hitler to massacre the jews and handicapped because he FELT hatred. (No, I'm not comparing anybody else we're discussing to Hitler--I'm making the point that feelings can't ever be basis for deciding issues of right and wrong.) Either there are fundamental, absolute principles of right and wrong, good and evil, or ANYTHING goes, as long as one, some, or most FEEL okay about it. Is there anything that you believe to be wrong, even if the majority were to condone it? (I don't know, thievery maybe? Canibalism on unwilling victims?) If there is ANYTHING that you believe to be wrong, you have to ask yourself WHY that is wrong then apply those principles or that reason in a consistent manner. Anything else is just the anarchy of the emotions of the masses. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 08:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Suction Aspiration Suction aspiration, or "vacuum curettage," is the abortion technique used in most first trimester abortions.[9] A powerful suction tube with a sharp cutting edge is inserted into the womb through the dilated cervix. The suction dismembers the body of the developing baby and tears the placenta from the wall of the uterus, sucking blood, amniotic fluid, placental tissue, and fetal parts[10] into a collection bottle.[11] Great care must be taken to prevent the uterus from being punctured during this procedure, which may cause hemorrhage and necessitate further surgery.[12] Also, infection can easily develop if any fetal or placental tissue is left behind in the uterus. This is the most frequent post-abortion complication. [13] Dilatation (Dilation) and Curettage (D&C) In this technique, the cervix is dilated or stretched to permit the insertion of a loop shaped steel knife. The body of the baby is cut into pieces and removed and the placenta is scraped off the uterine wall. [14] Blood loss from D & C, or "mechanical" curettage is greater than for suction aspiration, as is the likelihood of uterine perforation and infection. [15] This method should not be confused with routine D&C?s done for reasons other than undesired pregnancy (to treat abnormal uterine bleeding, dysmenorrhea, etc.). [16] Methotrexate The procedure with methotrexate is similar to the one using RU 486, though administered by an intramuscular injection instead of a pill. [33] Originally designed to attack fast growing cells such as cancers by neutralizing the B vitamin folic acid necessary for cell division, methotrexate apparently attacks the fast growing cells of the trophoblast as well,[34] the tissue surronding the embryo that eventually gives rise to the placenta. The trophoblast not only functions as the "life support system" for the developing child, [35] drawing oxygen and nutrients from the mother?s blood supply and disposing of carbon dioxide and waste products, [36] but also produces the hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) hormone which signals the corpus luteum to continue the production of progesterone necessary to prevent breakdown of the uterine lining and loss of the pregnancy. [37] Methotrexate initiaties the disintengration of that sustaining, protective, and nourishing environment. Deprived of the food, oxygen, and fluids he or she needs to survive, the baby dies. Three to seven days later (depending on the protocol used), a suppository of misoprostol (the same prostaglandin used with RU 486) is inserted into a woman?s vagina to trigger expulsion of the tiny body of the child from the woman?s uterus. Sometimes this occurs within the next few hours, but often a second dose of the prostaglandin is required, making the time lapse between the initial administration of methotrexate and the actual completion of the abortion as long as several weeks. [38] A woman may bleed for weeks (42 days in one study[39] ), even heavily, [40] and may abort anywhere -- at home, on the bus, at work, etc. [41] Those found to be still pregnant in later visits (at least 1 in 25) are given surgical abortions. [42] Even doctors who support abortion are reluctant to prescribe methotrexate for abortion because of its high toxicity and unpredictable side effects. [43] Those side effects commonly include nausea, pain, diarrhea, [44] as well as less visible but more serious effects such as bone marrow depression, severe anemia, liver damage and methotrexate-induced lung disease. [45] The manufacturer warns in the package insert that while methotrexate has shown itself useful in treating certain types of cancer and severe cases of arthritis and psoriasis, "deaths have been reported with the use of methotrexate," and recommends that its use be limited to "physicians whose knowledge and experience includes the use of antimetabolite therapy." [46] Though researchers performing methotrexate abortions have dismissed such concerns because of the low dosage used, [47] other doctors in the abortion trade have disagreed, [48] and the package insert clearly warns that "toxic effects may be related in frequency and severity to dose or frequency of administration but have been seen at all doses" (emphasis added). [49] Abortion Techniques: Instillation Methods Chemical 2nd and 3rd Trimesters These methods involve the injection of drugs or chemicals through the abdomen or cervix into the amniotic sac to cause the death of the child and his or her expulsion from the uterus. Several drugs have been tried, [52] but the most commonly used are hypertonic saline, urea, and prostaglandins. Salt Poisoning Otherwise known as "saline amniocentesis," "salting out," or a "hypertonic saline" abortion, this technique is used after 16 weeks of pregnancy, when enough fluid has accumulated in the amniotic fluid sac surrounding the baby. A needle is inserted through the mother?s abdomen and 50-250 ml (as much as a cup) of amniotic fluid is withdrawn and replaced with a solution of concentrated salt. [53] The baby breathes in, swallowing the salt, and is poisoned.[54] The chemical solution also causes painful burning and deterioration of the baby?s skin. [55] Usually, after about an hour, the child dies. The mother goes into labor about 33 to 35 hours after instillation and delivers a dead, burned, and shriveled baby. [56] About 97% of mothers deliver their dead babies within 72 hours.[57] Hypertonic saline may initiate a condition in the mother called "consumption coagulopathy" (uncontrolled blood clotting throughout the body) with severe hemorrhage as well as other serious side effects on the central nervous system. [58] Seizures, coma, or death may also result from saline inadvertently injected into the woman?s vascular system.[59] Urea Because of the dangers associated with saline methods, other instillation methods such as hypersomolar urea are sometimes employed, [60] though these are less effective and usually must be supplemented by oxytocin or a prostaglandin in order to achieve the desired result. [61] Incomplete or failed abortion remains a problem with urea methods, often precipitating the additional risk of surgery. As with other instillation techniques, gastrointestinal side effects such as nausea or vomiting are frequent, but the most common problem with second trimester techniques is cervical injuries, which range from small lacerations to complete detachments of the anterior or posterior cervix. Between 1% and 2% of patients using urea must be hospitalized for treatment of endometritis, an infection of the lining oft he uterus.[62] Prostaglandins Prostaglandins are naturally produced chemical compounds which normally assist in the birthing process. The injection of concentrations of artificial prostaglandins prematurely into the amniotic sac induces violent labor and the birth of a child usually too young to survive. Often salt or another toxin is first injected to ensure that the baby will be delivered dead, [63] since some babies have survived the trauma of a prostaglandin birth and been born alive. [64] This method is used during the second trimester. [65] In addition to risks of retained placenta, cervical trauma, infection, hemorrhage, [66] hyperthermia, bronchoconstriction, tachycardia, [67] more serious side effects and complications from the use of artificial prostaglandins, including cardiac arrest and rupture of the uterus, can be unpredictable and very severe. Death is not unheard of. [68] Abortion Techniques: Instillation Methods Surgical 2nd and 3rd Trimesters Partial-Birth Abortion Abortionists sometimes refer to these or similar types of abortions using obscure, clinical-sounding euphemisms such as "Dilation and Extraction" (D&X), or "intact D&E" (IDE) which mask the realities of how the abortions are actually performed. [69] This procedure is used to abort women who are 20 to 32 weeks pregnant -- or even later into pregnancy.* Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist reaches into the uterus, grabs the unborn baby?s leg with forceps, and pulls the baby into the birth canal, except for the head, which is deliberately kept just inside the womb. (At this point in a partial-birth abortion, the baby is alive.) Then the abortionist jams scissors into the back of the baby?s skull and spreads the tips of the scissors apart to enlarge the wound. After removing the scissors, a suction catheter is inserted into the skull and the baby?s brains are sucked out. The collapsed head is then removed from the uterus.[71 -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-27-2004 08:47 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I said in my original post that I DO NOT agree with abortion. I'm not de-sensitized to society. Only one person CL has answered my original question. I try to disregard Hogguide posts but this "desensitized to our society" thing really bothers me. Seems like you are the one desensitized to our society and want to impose your OWN will on ALL women based on your beliefs. As a real man I cannot impose my own will on all Americans. It seems to me that you are desensitized as an American -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 08:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: ... want to impose your OWN will on ALL women based on your beliefs. We are all Americans...even the does. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, we are all Americans, and that is why every law should be carefully considered and never passed lightly or quickly--because EVERY SINGLE LAW imposes someones will one every based on SOMEONE'S BELIEFS. I agree with in that laws should not be made just because one, some, or all BELIEVE something and are the most emotional or foreceful about their position. The question is, what are those beliefs, what is our common ground a starting point, and are there logical, consistent arguments for the application of those beliefs on which we can agree? I have not seen anyone respond to those issues. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 09:08 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Political correctness is not sensitivity to society its apathey.Ignoring the suffering and the death around us has become a way of life for some people in this country. This is a sorry state of affaires and is the reason forien countrys despise some of us . We call ourselves advanced and cililized but it is monsterous to allow some of the things that go on in this Great Country of ours. Where are all the children, where have they all gone.? Where are our brothers and sisters where are our friends that will never be.? Why are there unfulfilled lives barren and the bitter women their true nature now beyond reach? Where are our great leaders and generals and the kind hands of the good nurse.Why has this greatest generation never been born .Why its the great tragedy of our age the liberal decievers have taken them all away.What has been will return what is now will happen again.The exposure of the young children shall be again. The great doctors shall do harm, their great oathes to do no harm forgotten to their great shame.There is nothing new under the sun for time repeates itself . The great Romans destroyed their children why must we now do the same.Time marches on but oh how things they do stay the same.God help and protect us for we know not what we do. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-27-2004 09:11 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HCH, I see the point you are making. Can't please everyone all the time. I'll say this...If you don't think like me, you should die. Disregard the previous sentence but think about this...sounds a lot like the thoughts of the Islamic nations we are currently at war with and the extremists who cut off heads don't it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Knox Hntr 4 Point Member # 2484 posted 07-27-2004 09:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Hill Country Hunter: [quote] The question is, what are those beliefs, what is our common ground a starting point, and are there logical, consistent arguments for the application of those beliefs on which we can agree? I have not seen anyone respond to those issues. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only thing clear to me is that there is absolute common ground at the agreement that the murder of another person is wrong, and should not and cannot be tolerated. This is the point at which the argument diverges, and common ground becomes scarce. Unfortunately, since the debate ends outside the boundaries of science, and inside the realm of spirituality and the soul, opinions and emotions rule, and this is never conducive to settling an argument. Some 'bipartisan' food for thought though from my point of view: If, at whatever stage, abortion is legal in most circumstances, then there can be no laws in place which punish people for abusing/attacking a pregnant woman and destroying the fetus. After all, the courts cannot deem that a 4 month developed child that is wanted has different rights than one that is not. If, at whatever stage, abortion is illegal in most circumstances, then laws must be in place that charge mothers with contributing to delinquency and criminal negligence for having a beer while pregnant. And the system would have to be geared to prosecute mothers with child for Involuntary manslaughter if they engaged in any activities that could put the developing child at risk, and something goes wrong. There is no consistency or moral victory for either side without those things. And since none of this is even remotely likely, I can only conclude that a great hypocrisy covers both sides of the argument. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 448 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 09:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, is the question that you feel has not been answered is, "What would you do if you're daughter got pregnant," and I think you mean after being raped. If that is your question, then I believe that I have also answered it above, but I'll be more explicit here: I would grieve with her and for her, support her in every way I could, love her, and do everything I could to make sure that the SOB paid for his despicable crime. I would also lovingly do everything I could to prevent her from aborting it, if that was even what she wanted to do, because I believe that in this world we are put in very difficult situations at times and are given the strength to deal with them rightly, even when that is the more difficult path. We cannot avoid what is right or do what is wrong just because it is emotionally difficult. I as her father have a duty to care for my minor daughter and prevent her from committing an act that will further scar and mar her for the rest of her life. Furthermore, just as all the grandfathers on here would do anything to protect their grandkids, I would have a duty to protect the innocent life of my grandchild, whether any of us planned to have him or her or not. Why would I curse my own flesh and bone just because his or her father committed an awful crime? Have you ever seen Rob Roy? I could no more allow my daughter to have an abortion than I could allow her to drown or chop up any of my grandkids after they had been born. Why? Because we do have wide lattitude to act on what we feel. But no matter how strongly we feel something, we cannot cross that line that seperates right from wrong, good from evil. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-27-2004 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lockley, Is your God my God? If not then who's God is right? Remember this is America. Even the Islamic dissident work under god's hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-27-2004 09:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..It's a personal feeling to where no can judge anther person for how they feel... if they outlaw abortion they should ban capital punishment...Why cause it's a human...I am not saying i like it, but it's none of my biznes if a women gets one or not. just like it's none of yall bizness to do the same. opinons r like butts we all have em and they all stink lol -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged ? Hello, Locksley [ log out ] Tennessee Deer Talk ? General Forums ? TnDeer General Forum ? Special Delivery for Hogguide (Page 3) UBBFriend: Email this page to someone! This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 Author Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-27-2004 09:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said HCH. The instance I was typing of was about any circumstance though. Being raped, impregnated by pot-head boy friend...or even possibly grandpa. Why is it ok to draw the line on such a sensitive issue? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 09:30 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have no respect for arab terriosts but the same god is looking at us all,AND not all the things they say against us is untrue that is what makes them dangerous.We are a country that professes to be Christian yet we destroy our inocent ones by the thousands as the pagans did before Christ. If we destroy our inocent babys we destroy our future, how can God not see this abomination and hippocracy in our country for what it is MURDER, MURDER MOST FOUL WE DESTROY OURSELVES OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 10:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: ..It's a personal feeling to where no can judge anther person for how they feel... if they outlaw abortion they should ban capital punishment...Why cause it's a human...I am not saying i like it, but it's none of my biznes if a women gets one or not. just like it's none of yall bizness to do the same. opinons r like butts we all have em and they all stink lol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess there is no point in discussing this much further, since you aparently do concede that anything (no matter how heinous or perverted) is morally okay as long as one, some, or the majority of people are willing to accept it. As a side note, capital punishment is not murder and is entirely distinguishable because the murderer is deserving of death because he or she is not an innocent life. He or she has become guilty by taking an innocent life that was undeserving of death. A child that has killed no one is an innocent life and does not deserve death. To be consistent, one either has to accept this distinction, or else hold the position that no person, whether intended victim, intervening police officer, or judge-ordered executioner could ever justly kill another person, even for the sake of saving innocent life. If there is a difference between the innocent and the guilty, that difference applies to unborn babies, as well. EITHER: there is nothing wrong at all in this world, and EVERYTHING is okay as long as it makes you feel better; OR there are principles and absolutes that must be consistently applied. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 10:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: Well said HCH. The instance I was typing of was about any circumstance though. Being raped, impregnated by pot-head boy friend...or even possibly grandpa. Why is it ok to draw the line on such a sensitive issue? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wouldn't choose to act and love any differently in any of those other tragic circumstances. I was just framing what I understood your question to be, not trying to limit my answer. Thank you for asking--I'm always happy to clarify a previous answer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged Hill Country Hunter 4 Point Member # 3690 posted 07-27-2004 10:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: ..It's a personal feeling to where no can judge anther person for how they feel... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. I do not want, and hope that it has not come across, that I am judging anyone based on their feelings. I have many feelings that I should not act on (even I may feel attracted to a woman I meet, it is still wrong to cheat on my wife; even though I may hate a person who has hurt me and want to prevent them from stealing, embarrassing, or emotionally huring me again, it is still wrong for me to kill them), so I cannot ever, ever be the standard or feel that I am better than someone else because of feelings they have. Likewise, I am no better of a person than anyone else who has done something wrong--because I sure have, too!!! There are principles outside of me, ones that I sometimes even violate, that determine what is right and wrong--otherwise there would be no basis for any laws restricting our actions. But I cannot view others as anything but better even than myself, because I cannot always meet the standards, either. Just because I sometimes break them, though, does not mean that I can deny that there are laws and standards. I am sorry if anyone has felt that I have been judging them or think myself better. I really, really hope that that is not the reason that none of the fairer sex have joined in the discussion. This entire issue is something that deserves far, far more sensitivity--for the sake of the women who face this issue--than most on either side of the issue usually ever show. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 256 | From: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged F16Rooster 8 Point Member # 2323 posted 07-27-2004 03:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't read all the posts on here so if I post something here that has been covered, just ignore it. Somewhere in the Old Testament, don't remember where at the moment, there is a record that sets out many of the laws and punishments for the people. You know the type of thing "If this man steals he shall lose his hand." Well one part of it says if a man kills a woman by striking her it is the same as murder and he shall be put to death but if he kills her unborn child by striking her, then he has to pay her a sum. This means that it is not murder to kill a fetus. More supporting evidence is that the root word of the greek word for life is the same word as "to breathe" Adam wasn't alive until God breathed into him the breath of life. This would also suggest that you are not alive until you have breathed air upon birth. -------------------- If you don't like me or what I say, du ma nhieu. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1077 | From: Murfreesboro/Maryville Tn | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged TNhunter 16 Pointer Member # 294 posted 07-27-2004 06:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exodus 21:22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [1] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. I would say an abortion should be taken as "serious injury". I couldn't find anything any closer than this to that which is referred to above. It might be there but please find it and put a reference to it if so. I believe this is what someone has fed to you in the past as a way to try to justify it................ -------------------- TNhunter "You might be a turkey hunter if..." Check it out - see if you are one! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kenny....keyhunter.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1178 | From: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged RutMan 10 Point Member # 722 posted 07-27-2004 06:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you TNhunter, I agree, very good post !! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3331 | From: Burlison-TN USA | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 07:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now some of us try to use the bible to rationalize murder of the innocent childeren.Well I wonder what else people will try to use to juistify their liberal political views of life and murder and the lack of the basic human prohibition against the murder of childeran. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-27-2004 07:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yeah but even bible thumping is misleading becuase thats one of the most violent books i have ever read...not tring to offend but it is... -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 08:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it murder to kill the old among us they dont walk so good any more, some are blind, some have lost their mental capacity, if its ok to kill the inocent children then the old among us are done far. But just remember that some day you will be old and you are not unborn so you will understand what is happening to you. Can you use te bible 17 to justifie that happening to you my young one of no compasion. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged BOWdacious 8 Point Member # 656 posted 07-27-2004 08:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If a fetus is not a life at conception,why do we have sympathy for someone who miscarries?Whether it is wanted or not,it is still a life.It is not just a woman's DNA, therefore she does not have sole rights to decide what is to be done about an unplanned pregnancy.The father may want to raise the child...it is part of him,too.If an abortion is o.k. with you then don't be appalled when a teenager throws her newborn into a dumpster..she didn't want it and society has told her that life is not sacred.The only thing that matters is her happiness....Oh maybe only if she makes sure it doesn't breathe before she tosses it...will that make it all better? I am very glad to see all of you men discuss this as adults and not bash others for their opinions.Discussion is what helps us to sort out right from wrong. OK...I'm done now.I officially put my soapbox bak in the closet. -------------------- I do NOT have PMS....I am "hormonally challenged"! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1354 | From: East TN | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged hogguide Moderator Member # 599 posted 07-27-2004 08:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bald and tatted..It is apparent you have never read the Bible. Jason...You try and disregard my posts becasue they expose you for what you are. People who justify and condone abortion have lost their natural affection. They have no heart and are blinded by their own reprobate mind. Imagine someone actually thinking murdering a baby is "normal" and "acceptable". I dont have to use the Bible to know that murdering a child is wrong. People with morals, a brain and most importantly a heart, know better than to even fathom that murdering a baby is right. Sad, pathetic, and proof we live in a Godless, reprobate, socirty void of true love and accountability for opur actions. I hate to think what kind of word my kids will raise their kids in. -------------------- "You aint had fun until you grab 200 pounds of bristles and tusks with one hand and a cold steel blade in the other"...."The South's Original Extreme Sport" www.tnboar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 5763 | From: "Jim Town" | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-27-2004 08:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The violence in the bible is dedicated against evil in the world and evil men. There are evil people in the world or are our enemys all angeles. The violence in the bible is not directed agianst the innocent childeren of the chosen people or the Christian children or even the Roman childeren as a matter of fact the christians in ancient times saved the childeren the pagans tried to expose .The wealthy Christians gave their gold to save inocent life not destroy it that way the Christians became stronger with each child saved.Violence is not the worst thing that can happen in life and violence against the enemy is what they deserve . The loss of your soul is to be feared above everything else. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged baldntatted 4 Point Member # 3731 posted 07-27-2004 09:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah i have read the bible in 2 dirrent versions. And have her the talks from my brother in law the minister, and his sister the minister.and her husband the pastor. and there mom the ministor in tx. i have debated many things... some i have won and some i have lost. i have just as many religous people around me then the pope. lol like i said i didn't mean to offend anyone and it seems that i have hit a nerve with the bible thumping thing...just tring to make an opion.. i apoligize if yall took it wrong... -------------------- God only made a few perfect heads, The rest he put hair on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 150 | From: henry co paris tn | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged Joshbraun 6 Point Member # 2173 posted 07-28-2004 12:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If people think that a child is not conidered a human being until it actually breathes for the first time, that is pretty insane to me. So does this mean that a fetus doesn't have a soul until it is out of the womb??? The act of legalizing abortions just shows how much is wrong with our world today. Killing a fetus, killing a baby, killing a person, it is all the same, it is called MURDER. Although some of the acts of killing can be done in a doctors office, that is this worlds way of feeling better about the murder. Wake up America!!! -------------------- The wilderness is the preservation of the world.... (Thoreau) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 546 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-28-2004 01:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: yeah but even bible thumping is misleading becuase thats one of the most violent books i have ever read...not tring to offend but it is... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not Offended at all Your Right it is Full of Violence. Sex,Rape,Incest,Murder,War,Crime & Punishament,but it is also full of Love,Love Story's,What Is Right and What Is Wrong. What would one expect from the ? H istory O f L ife Y our B ook (of) I nstructions B efore L eaving E arth. The promblem is that far too many Read it To Suit Themselves instead of trying to Read it to see what God Say's. Now back to the Topic Abortion is Murder Plain and Simple. Life beigins at Conception the second the sperm meets the egg. The only part of it I have a hard time with it,is in Cases of Rape,Incest and to Save the Life of the Mother.These are the only reasons I see for it,even though I believe even then its still Wrong.I guess I need to do some more reading and get back to Bended Knee U. There is No Reason for it with all of todays Birth Control and the Best time honored one Abstinece. Just my thoughts. QUESTION- Can someone tell or explain to me.HOW and WHY a Underage Young Lady can have a Abortion without her parents consent for her to do so? While the same young lady has to have her Parnets consent to have a Physical Exam????? -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged TX300mag 8 Point Member # 2415 posted 07-28-2004 02:36 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see a few liberals are coming out of the closet! -------------------- You can't ride home on a bowl of goat...I've always said that. Guns kill people, just like the spoon made Rosie O'Donnel fat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1056 | From: possum holler | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-28-2004 04:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fetal Psychology Janet L. Hopson Psychology Today, October 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: Psychology Today, Sep/Oct98, Vol. 31 Issue 5, p44, 6p, 4c. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Behaviorally speaking, there's little difference between a newborn baby and a 32-week-old fetus. A new wave of research suggests that the fetus can feel, dream, even enjoy The Cat in the Hat. The abortion debate may never be the same. The scene never fails to give goose bumps: the baby, just seconds old and still dewy from the womb, is lifted into the arms of its exhausted but blissful parents. They gaze adoringly as their new child stretches and squirms, scrunches its mouth and opens its eyes. To anyone watching this tender vignette, the message is unmistakable. Birth is the beginning of it all, ground zero, the moment from which the clock starts ticking. Not so, declares Janet DiPietro. Birth may be a grand occasion, says the Johns Hopkins University psychologist, but "it is a trivial event in development. Nothing neurologically interesting happens." Armed with highly sensitive and sophisticated monitoring gear, DiPietro and other researchers today are discovering that the real action starts weeks earlier. At 32 weeks of gestation - two months before a baby is considered fully prepared for the world, or "at term" - a fetus is behaving almost exactly as a newborn. And it continues to do so for the next 12 weeks. As if overturning the common conception of infancy weren't enough, scientists are creating a startling new picture of intelligent life in the womb. Among the revelations: By nine weeks, a developing fetus can hiccup and react to loud noises. By the end of the second trimester it can hear. Just as adults do, the fetus experiences the rapid eye movement (REM) sleep of dreams. The fetus savors its mother's meals, first picking up the food tastes of a culture in the womb. Among other mental feats, the fetus can distinguish between the voice of Mom and that of a stranger, and respond to a familiar story read to it. Even a premature baby is aware, feels, responds, and adapts to its environment. Just because the fetus is responsive to certain stimuli doesn't mean that it should be the target of efforts to enhance development. Sensory stimulation of the fetus can in fact lead to bizarre patterns of adaptation later on. The roots of human behavior, researchers now know, begin to develop early - just weeks after conception, in fact. Well before a woman typically knows she is pregnant, her embryo's brain has already begun to bulge. By five weeks, the organ that looks like a lumpy inchworm has already embarked on the most spectacular feat of human development: the creation of the deeply creased and convoluted cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that will eventually allow the growing person to move, think, speak, plan, and create in a human way. At nine weeks, the embryo's ballooning brain allows it to bend its body, hiccup, and react to loud sounds. At week ten, it moves its arms, "breathes" amniotic fluid in and out, opens its jaw, and stretches. Before the first trimester is over, it yawns, sucks, and swallows, as well as feels and smells. By the end of the second trimester, it can hear; toward the end of pregnancy, it can see. Fetal Alertness Scientists who follow the fetus' daily life find that it spends most of its time not exercising these new abilities but sleeping. At 32 weeks, it drowses 90 to 95% of the day. Some of these hours are spent in deep sleep, some in REM sleep, and some in an indeterminate state, a product of the fetus' immature brain that is different from sleep in a baby, child, or adult. During REM sleep, the fetus' eyes move back and forth just as an adult's eyes do, and many researchers believe that it is dreaming. DiPietro speculates that fetuses dream about what they know - the sensations they feel in the womb. Closer to birth, the fetus sleeps 85 or 90% of the time: the same as a newborn. Between its frequent naps, the fetus seems to have "something like an awake alert period,' according to developmental psychologist William Filer, Ph.D., who with his Columbia University colleagues is monitoring these sleep and wakefulness cycles in order to identify patterns of normal and abnormal brain development, including potential predictors of sudden infant death syndrome. Says Filer, "We are, in effect, asking the fetus: 'Are you paying attention? Is your nervous system behaving in the appropriate way?'" Fetal Movement Awake or asleep, the human fetus moves 50 times or more each hour, flexing and extending its body, moving its head, face, and limbs and exploring its warm, wet compartment by touch. Heidelise Als, Ph.D., a developmental psychologist at Harvard Medical School, is fascinated by the amount of tactile stimulation a fetus gives itself. "It touches a hand to the face, one hand to the other hand, clasps its feet, touches its foot to its leg, its hand to its umbilical cord," she reports. Als believes there is a mismatch between the environment given to preemies in hospitals and the environment they would have had in the womb. She has been working for years to change the care given to preemies so that they can curl up, bring their knees together, and touch things with their hands as they would have for weeks in the womb. Along with such common movements, DiPietro has also noted some odder fetal activities, including "licking the uterine wall and literally walking around the womb by pushing off with its feet." Laterborns may have more room in the womb for such maneuvers than first babies. After the initial pregnancy, a woman's uterus is bigger and the umbilical cord longer, allowing more freedom of movement. "Second and subsequent children may develop more motor experience in utero and so may become more active infants," DiPietro speculates. Fetuses react sharply to their mother's actions. "When we're watching the fetus on ultrasound and the mother starts to laugh, we can see the fetus, floating upside down in the womb, bounce up and down on its head, bum-bum-bum, like it's bouncing on a trampoline," says DiPietro. "When mothers watch this on the screen, they laugh harder, and the fetus goes up and down even faster. We've wondered whether this is why people grow up liking roller coasters." Fetal Taste Why people grow up liking hot chilies or spicy curries may also have something to do with the fetal environment. By 13 to 15 weeks a fetus' taste buds already look like a mature adult's, and doctors know that the amniotic fluid that surrounds it can smell strongly of curry, cumin, garlic, onion and other essences from a mother's diet. Whether fetuses can taste these flavors isn't yet known, but scientists have found that a 33-week-old preemie will suck harder on a sweetened nipple than on a plain rubber one. "During the last trimester, the fetus is swallowing up to a liter a day" of amniotic fluid, notes Julie Mennella, Ph.D., a biopsychologist at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia. She thinks the fluid may act as a "flavor bridge" to breast milk, which also carries food flavors from the mother's diet. Fetal Hearing Whether or not a fetus can taste, there's little question that it can hear. A very premature baby entering the world at 24 or 25 weeks responds to the sounds around it, observes Als, so its auditory apparatus must already have been functioning in the womb. Many pregnant women report a fetal jerk or sudden kick just after a door slams or a car backfires. Even without such intrusions, the womb is not a silent place. Researchers who have inserted a hydrophone into the uterus of a pregnant woman have picked up a noise level "akin to the background noise in an apartment," according to DiPietro. Sounds include the whooshing of blood in the mother's vessels, the gurgling and rumbling of her stomach and intestines, as well as the tones of her voice filtered through tissues, bones, and fluid, and the voices of other people coming through the amniotic wall. Fifer has found that fetal heart rate slows when the mother is speaking, suggesting that the fetus not only hears and recognizes the sound, but is calmed by it. Fetal Vision Vision is the last sense to develop. A very premature infant can see light and shape; researchers presume that a fetus has the same ability. Just as the womb isn't completely quiet, it isn't utterly dark, either. Says Filer: "There may be just enough visual stimulation filtered through the mother's tissues that a fetus can respond when the mother is in bright light," such as when she is sunbathing. Japanese scientists have even reported a distinct fetal reaction to flashes of light shined on the mother's belly. However, other researchers warn that exposing fetuses (or premature infants) to bright light before they are ready can be dangerous. In fact, Harvard's Als believes that retinal damage in premature infants, which has long been ascribed to high concentrations of oxygen, may actually be due to overexposure to light at the wrong time in development. A six-month fetus, born about 14 weeks too early, has a brain that is neither prepared for nor expecting signals from the eyes to be transmitted into the brain's visual cortex, and from there into the executive-branch frontal lobes, where information is integrated. When the fetus is forced to see too much too soon, says Als, the accelerated stimulation may lead to aberrations of brain development. Fetal Learning Along with the ability to feel, see, and hear comes the capacity to learn and remember. These activities can be rudimentary, automatic, even biochemical. For example, a fetus, after an initial reaction of alarm, eventually stops responding to a repeated loud noise. The fetus displays the same kind of primitive learning, known as habituation, in response to its mother's voice, Fifer has found. But the fetus has shown itself capable of far more. In the 1980s, psychology professor Anthony James DeCasper, Ph.D., and colleagues at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, devised a feeding contraption that allows a baby to suck faster to hear one set of sounds through headphones and to suck slower to hear a different set. With this technique, DeCasper discovered that within hours of birth, a baby already prefers its mother's voice to a stranger's, suggesting it must have learned and remembered the voice, albeit not necessarily consciously, from its last months in the womb. More recently, he's found that a newborn prefers a story read to it repeatedly in the womb - in this case, The Cat in the Hat - over a new story introduced soon after birth. DeCasper and others have uncovered more mental feats. Newborns can not only distinguish their mother from a stranger speaking, but would rather hear Mom's voice, especially the way it sounds filtered through amniotic fluid rather than through air. They're xenophobes, too: they prefer to hear Mom speaking in her native language than to hear her or someone else speaking in a foreign tongue. By monitoring changes in fetal heart rate, psychologist JeanPierre Lecanuet, Ph.D., and his colleagues in Paris have found that fetuses can even tell strangers' voices apart. They also seem to like certain stories more than others. The fetal heartbeat will slow down when a familiar French fairy tale such as "La Poulette" ("The Chick") or "Le Petit Crapaud" ("The Little Toad"), is read near the mother's belly. When the same reader delivers another unfamiliar story, the fetal heartbeat stays steady. The fetus is likely responding to the cadence of voices and stories, not their actual words, observes Fifer, but the conclusion is the same: the fetus can listen, learn, and remember at some level, and, as with most babies and children, it likes the comfort and reassurance of the familiar. Fetal Personality It's no secret that babies are born with distinct differences and patterns of activity that suggest individual temperament. Just when and how the behavioral traits originate in the womb is now the subject of intense scrutiny. In the first formal study of fetal temperament in 1996, DiPietro and her colleagues recorded the heart rate and movements of 31 fetuses six times before birth and compared them to readings taken twice after birth. (They've since extended their study to include 100 more fetuses.) Their findings: fetuses that are very active in the womb tend to be more irritable infants. Those with irregular sleep/wake patterns in the womb sleep more poorly as young infants. And fetuses with high heart rates become unpredictable, inactive babies. "Behavior doesn't begin at birth," declares DiPietro. "It begins before and develops in predictable ways." One of the most important influences on development is the fetal environment. As Harvard's Als observes, "The fetus gets an enormous amount of 'hormonal bathing' through the mother, so its chronobiological rhythms are influenced by the mother's sleep/wake cycles, her eating patterns, her movements." The hormones a mother puts out in response to stress also appear critical. DiPietro finds that highly pressured mothers-to-be tend to have more active fetuses--and more irritable infants. "The most stressed are working pregnant women," says DiPietro. "These days, women tend to work up to the day they deliver, even though the implications for pregnancy aren't entirely clear yet. That's our cultural norm, but I think it's insane." Als agrees that working can be an enormous stress, but emphasizes that pregnancy hormones help to buffer both mother and fetus. Individual reactions to stress also matter. "The pregnant woman who chooses to work is a different woman already from the one who chooses not to work," she explains. She's also different from the woman who has no choice but to work. DiPietro's studies show that the fetuses of poor women are distinct neurobehaviorally-less active, with a less variable heart rate--from the fetuses of middle-class women. Yet "poor women rate themselves as less stressed than do working middle-class women," she notes. DiPietro suspects that inadequate nutrition and exposure to pollutants may significantly affect the fetuses of poor women. Stress, diet, and toxins may combine to have a harmful effect on intelligence. A recent study by biostatistician Bernie Devlin, Ph.D., of the University of Pittsburgh, suggests that genes may have less impact on IQ than previously thought and that the environment of the womb may account for much more. "Our old notion of nature influencing the fetus before birth and nurture after birth needs an update," DiPietro insists. "There is an antenatal environment, too, that is provided by the mother." Parents-to-be who want to further their unborn child's mental development should start by assuring that the antenatal environment is wellnourished, low-stress, drug-free. Various authors and "experts" also have suggested poking the fetus at regular intervals, speaking to it through a paper tube or "pregaphone," piping in classical music, even flashing lights at the mother's abdomen. Does such stimulation work? More importantly: Is it safe? Some who use these methods swear their children are smarter, more verbally and musically inclined, more physically coordinated and socially adept than average. Scientists, however, are skeptical. "There has been no defended research anywhere that shows any enduring effect from these stimulations," asserts Filer. "Since no one can even say for certain when a fetus is awake, poking them or sticking speakers on the mother's abdomen may be changing their natural sleep patterns. No one would consider poking or prodding a newborn baby in her bassinet or putting a speaker next to her ear, so why would you do such a thing with a fetus?" Als is more emphatic. "My bet is that poking, shaking, or otherwise deliberately stimulating the fetus might alter its developmental sequence, and anything that affects the development of the brain comes at a cost." Gently talking to the fetus, however, seems to pose little risk. Fifer suggests that this kind of activity may help parents as much as the fetus. "Thinking about your fetus, talking to it, having your spouse talk to it, will all help prepare you for this new creature that's going to jump into your life and turn it upside down," he says--once it finally makes its anti-climactic entrance. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-28-2004 04:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fetal Development From conception to birth Illustration by R.K. O'Bannon Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins. Click photo to enlarge. Day 6: embryo begins implantation in the uterus. Day 22: heart begins to beat with the child?s own blood, often a different type than the mothers?. Week 3: By the end of third week the child?s backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming. The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape. Week 4: By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg. Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop. Week 6: Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming. Week 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming. Week 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear. Click photo to enlarge Weeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup. Weeks 10 and 11: The baby can ?breathe? amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation. Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb. Week 14: At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day. Week 15: The baby has an adult?s taste buds. Month 4: Bone Marrow is now beginning to form. The heart is pumping 25 quarts of blood a day. By the end of month 4 the baby will be 8-10 inches in length and will be one half of its birth weight. Week 17: The baby can have dream (REM) sleep. Week 19: Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger. Click photo to enlarge Week 20: The earliest stage at which Partial birth abortions are performed. At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its? mothers voice. Click photo to enlarge Months 5 and 6: The baby practices breathing by inhaling amniotic fluid into its developing lungs. The baby will grasp at the umbilical cord when it feels it. Most mothers feel an increase in movement, kicking, and hiccups from the baby. Oil and sweat glands are now functioning. The baby is now twelve inches long or more, and weighs up to one and a half pounds. Months 7 through 9: Eyeteeth are present. The baby opens and closes his eyes. The baby is using four of the five senses (vision, hearing, taste, and touch.) He knows the difference between waking and sleeping, and can relate to the moods of the mother. The baby?s skin begins to thicken, and a layer of fat is produced and stored beneath the skin. Antibodies are built up, and the baby?s heart begins to pump 300 gallons of blood per day. Approximately one week before the birth the baby stops growing, and ?drops? usually head down into the pelvic cavity. Sources Used: Bergel, Gary (Produced by NRLC) ?When You Were Formed in Secret.? 1998. Flanagan, Geraldine Lux. Beginning Life. The Marvelous Journey from Conception to Birth. New York: DK Publishing Inc., 1996. Hopson, Janet L. Fetal Psychology. Oct. 1998. 07 Jan 2003. http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/psychtoday9809.html. Internet Sources: ?Fetal Development.? 07 Jan 2003. http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal1.html. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-28-2004 08:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hogguide, Maybe if you stepped back from your own beliefs for a second you could see that others actually do have a heart and more intelligence than you originally assumed. All the closed-minded folks are what have destroyed our country, in my opinion. You can't call me wrong there...it is my opinion. If you feel it is ok to impose your will on another person...more power to you. After all this is America and many soldiers have died to allow you that freedom. I originally said I DO NOT AGREE with abortion...but it isn't my place to choose an abortion since I am a man. I personally think women should have that right. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-28-2004 09:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yadda, yadda, yadda. All these MEN deciding for women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It is also MEN in churches that try to tell women whether or not they can use birth control. I'll just let the women decide what they will and won't do. I read where someone called pregnancy and child birth an "inconvenience." They're a bit more than that. Until recently, childbirth was the number one cause of death among adult females. I think that is a tad more serious than an "inconvenience." I don't for a second believe a fertilized 1-celled egg is a "baby." Do you realize how many fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine wall? It is about 10:1 (not including the use of birth control). Does that mean 10 "babies" die for every one born? When does a fetus become a "person?" I don't think science can answer that. That is a religious/moral question, and everyone will have a different opinion. Obviously, at some point during development the fetus is able to survive outside the womb. How early that is in development keeps getting earlier and earlier due to advances in medical technology. But the critical point is it takes extreme medical procedures to keep that premature baby alive. Where would the cut-off point be without those extreme measures? -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Knox Hntr 4 Point Member # 2484 posted 07-28-2004 09:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: Where would the cut-off point be without those extreme measures? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we were to settle on that as the criterion, somewhere in the 33 week range would be the 'line'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 448 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-28-2004 09:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knox Hntr, I could live with that definition. I could certainly live with severe restrictions on abortion after a given level of development. Added later: ...of course, what I can live with is immaterial. What can women live with? That is the important question. -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-28-2004 10:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CL2, That child may be your own in a few years. Would you feel like a failure as a father if she came to you with that proposition? Maybe you would rather she did it on her own and never told you? Maybe you didn't like the "daddy" to begin with, Is it ok then? All my posts have mentioned the Womans right. Although I don't agree with abortion I think it is ok for her to decide. Maybe we should have a referrendum where only women are allowed to vote...their body their mind don't seem so bad to me. I also think the women's vote should end all this debate and opened again in ten years for the next generation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Jump to new posts ? Hello, Locksley [ log out ] Tennessee Deer Talk ? General Forums ? TnDeer General Forum ? Special Delivery for Hogguide (Page 4) UBBFriend: Email this page to someone! This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 Author Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-28-2004 10:21 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BSK, I don't "condone" murder at any level (smart jab to hogguides jaw). Your premie post is right on target. Take the respirators away and all you have is stem-cell research left. I guess science for the better of all is OK though. Back in biblical times we didn't have all this technology with open-heart-surgery. Maybe we should let those folks die since open-heart surgey wasn't in the bible? You there Hogguide? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-28-2004 11:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question to those "Who say a Man shouldn't tell a women what she can do with her body" What about the Rights of the Father of the Unborn? Do they not have a Say in this matter? -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-28-2004 11:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: Yadda, yadda, yadda. All these MEN deciding for women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It is also MEN in churches that try to tell women whether or not they can use birth control.[quote] For some Churches and Religious beliefs that is saddly true,but not in my church.Your trying to lump them all together again. I don't for a second believe a fertilized 1-celled egg is a "baby." Do you realize how many fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine wall? It is about 10:1 (not including the use of birth control). Does that mean 10 "babies" die for every one born? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought you was smart enough to know that you will never have a baby without the Sperm meeting the Egg. I know about the rest of the above.On that last Question- Yes,if there is an outside reason for it not implanting.No- if God decided not to allow it to implant. -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-28-2004 12:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For some Churches and Religious beliefs that is saddly true,but not in my church. I'm really glad to hear that Tiny. Your trying to lump them all together again. You're right. I should have said ...some MEN in some churches... I thought you was smart enough to know that you will never have a baby without the Sperm meeting the Egg. Tiny, I said fertilized egg. That means the sperm has already gotten there. On that last Question- Yes,if there is an outside reason for it not implanting.No- if God decided not to allow it to implant. Whoa! So every time a fertilized egg does not implant, it is "God's will" and that fertilized egg is not a person? That's a direct contradiction of the "life at conception" idea. Either a fertilized egg is or it isn't a person. Which is it? What about the Rights of the Father of the Unborn? Do they not have a Say in this matter? Honestly, until the child is born, no I don't think the potential father has any rights. Not until he actually is a father. The idea of a man being able to legal force a woman to have a child she doesn't want to have is a terribly frightening idea. Very, very Orwellian. -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged hcahunter 6 Point Member # 2843 posted 07-28-2004 01:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know, I have read this entire thread and can come to only one conclusion. In some way shape or form we all think abortion is wrong. As for the rest of the story we can all agree to disagree. I remain John J Mireles A Father of two anxiously awaiting the birth of his first son who yesterday was 23 weeks in the womb. -------------------- I may grow old but I'll never grow up. HCAHunter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 514 | From: Antioch | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged BSK Blowhard - Jerkasaurus (non-antlered species) Member # 21 posted 07-28-2004 01:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jasonkb4, I'm not sure where you were going with your post. Your point? Modern medice and survival of people that wouldn't have survived otherwise is a question for medical philosophers. In the real-world, you do everything you can to save the life of your loved ones. Before modern medicine, 50% of all children died before they reached 16. Do we want to go back to that? No. -------------------- "Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan www.deermanagement.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 18021 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged J-Dawg Spike Member # 3681 posted 07-28-2004 01:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have several points to make on this subject. 1. How could anybody murder/kill an unborn child? Its just wrong, plain and simple. I pray that this nation will wake up. 2. Some folks have expressed their opinions that it should a womans right to choose. Well at the very least it should be a man & womans right to choose. Both should have a say in the matter since both had a say it how the situation arrived. To be honest I fully beleive that their right to choose was used up when they decided to have sex. Protected or not we all know what the risk are, the pill is not a 100% fool-proof method nor is the fact that you as a man wear a condom. Someone earlier mentioned the only way to fully protect yourself is to not do it unless you are willing to accept the consequences. I see more and more young people that do something without thinking about the consequences and the long term effects. The reason is simply that we as a society are allowing more and more outs for people, they don't have to live with the end result, they have other options. 3. I have a daughter that is 13 months old. She was born with a heart defect, a stomach/intestinal defect, and is down syndrome. She has had 3 surgerys in her short life. Stomach and intestine surgery at 3 days old, 2 heart surgerys at 6 months old, and will almost certainly need more as she gets older for her heart. I thank God everyday for her life. She has taught me more in the last year about faith, love, and priorities in my life than I ever learned in the previous 35. My wife and I could have aborted her early in the pregnacy but it was never even an option in our eyes. I cannot imagine my life without her. When any child is aborted how many people have lost out on this type of feeling? The unborn child is the most discriminated aganist person in our country. -------------------- Don't be stupid, you idiot! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 95 | From: Olive Branch, Ms. | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-28-2004 03:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heart surgery is to save lives not take life duh. What part of that cant you understand there einstein,or you Joey under a false name. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-28-2004 03:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YADDA TADDA YADDA we dont need a biology lesson there DEER SCIENCE MAN, WE HAD 4 YEARS OF IT IN COLLAGE TO. What we need is not the upper crust intellagencecia telling us how to think after all you people stirred up the PIEDA fools with the systemmatic torture of lab animals.Indefference to pain and suffering around you doest make scense in our Chrirtian age or do scientists want to go back to pagan times.I have news for you there, the pagans were more anti experiments on the body than we are. What we need is common scence about life and murder after all it is murder we are talking about here.Abortion is murder there Deer man, and you dont need to be a woman to see murder for what it is. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged J-Dawg Spike Member # 3681 posted 07-28-2004 05:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Locksley: Heart surgery is to save lives not take life duh. What part of that cant you understand there einstein,or you Joey under a false name. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Locksley..........What? Re-read my post , I think you missed something in the message. -------------------- Don't be stupid, you idiot! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 95 | From: Olive Branch, Ms. | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged TNhunter 16 Pointer Member # 294 posted 07-28-2004 05:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To respond to one of BSK's statements above: "Honestly, until the child is born, no I don't think the potential father has any rights. Not until he actually is a father. The idea of a man being able to legal force a woman to have a child she doesn't want to have is a terribly frightening idea. Very, very Orwellian." I disagree with this point of view. "Potential fathers" as you call them should have a legal right to abort any and all responsibilities as the legal father of that child up until it is born if he so chooses - why should the woman have a right to force her wanting to have the child and keeping it on him if he is unwilling to take on his resposibilites. -------------------- TNhunter "You might be a turkey hunter if..." Check it out - see if you are one! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kenny....keyhunter.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1178 | From: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged hogguide Moderator Member # 599 posted 07-28-2004 09:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAson, BSK, Bald and tatted.. You stil lhavent answered my question..You have done a good job of making half truths and Michale Moore type analogies to get your pro murder condoing views across. but answer my question.. Why should a totally innocent child have to pay the ultimate price and be murdered beacuse of the sins of the father or the lackadasical, selfish weants of a wopman not ready to be a mother?? What if YOUR mother said..I dont want this child and little BSK was shredded alive in the womb?? What if little Jason's mommy ahd said...His father raped me...Kill the INNOCENT child and little Jaosn was jerked 3/4ths of the way out of the birth canal, had a set of froceps jammed into the base of his skull and had his brain vaccumed out of his skull?? is that FAIR?? I am all for a woman doing with her body as she fits..but when HER actions resulty in a new human being, LIVING, growing, and ready for IT'S OWN life? Cant you folks see how truly pathetic and sickening you are?? You are CONDONING murdering a child..A helpless baby wh ohas as much right to live and grow and you did. Bald and Tatted...There is NO SUCH THING in the Bible as a woman pastor or preacher. -------------------- "You aint had fun until you grab 200 pounds of bristles and tusks with one hand and a cold steel blade in the other"...."The South's Original Extreme Sport" www.tnboar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 5763 | From: "Jim Town" | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged jasonkb4 8 Point Member # 1757 posted 07-29-2004 02:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hogguide, I do not agree with abortion. I just feel that I lost my right to a say-so when I made that Lady pregnant, that is unless I'm willing to marry her. I really don't understand how you think it is ok for you to impose your will and belief system on every woman in America. I know you are very religious and I respect that. Ever heard of "seperation of church and state"? Our country continues to grow with the times. Your convoluted ways of thinking have not. I feel that is why you are so bitter...you lost again. In my opinion it is not a child until it breathes on its own. If your wife had a mis-carriage would you call her an abortionist? I know you would hold and care for her in her tough time. I'm sure you would say it was the act of God and meant to be. Why can't a lady exercising her right to choose be the act of God? God does work in mysterious ways you know By the way...I was a virgin on my wedding night, were you? I have only ever slept with one woman in my life and she is still the apple of my eye. She is laying there asleep three feet from me -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2348 | From: Nashville | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged AlabamaSwamper Spike Member # 3739 posted 07-29-2004 02:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: Me personaly i am pro choice. it's no one elses bizness what other people do.. See thats whats wrong with todays society. They spend to much time worring about everyone else and not them selfs. And to tell me about religon is a joke. Because how many people Die in the name of religon. I mean if women wants to get an abortion it's her choice. I mean just cause some old fart that sits on his high horse can make decision for people he would never accociate himself with, be making there life choices for the,...... But thats just my 2 cents ......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, in that case, I want to kill one lazy SOB that is living off my tax dollars. That is my decision isn't it. My religion has nothing to do with this issue, murder is murder and if a woman is responsible enough to spread her legs, then she better **** well be responsible enough to have the baby. Same goes for the man that crawls between those legs. -------------------- "No Stronger Bond Exist than that Between A Man and His Dog" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 62 | From: Deer Heaven, Turkey heaven and all points in between. | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged AlabamaSwamper Spike Member # 3739 posted 07-29-2004 02:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: . Lets say your 18 year old daughter is to attend Harvard with a full ride all the way through medical school and comes home pregnant 1 month prior to leaving for Harvard. She came to you and said "daddy I want an abortion" What would you do? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would say; "Well darlin, suck it up because your Harvard days are over, atleast for a while. Where is the father darlin? Why? Because he is going to help you one way or another." It all comes down to being responsible. -------------------- "No Stronger Bond Exist than that Between A Man and His Dog" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 62 | From: Deer Heaven, Turkey heaven and all points in between. | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged AlabamaSwamper Spike Member # 3739 posted 07-29-2004 02:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by baldntatted: ..... if they outlaw abortion they should ban capital punishment...Why cause it's a human... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So now an unborn baby is a criminal? What's next? -------------------- "No Stronger Bond Exist than that Between A Man and His Dog" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 62 | From: Deer Heaven, Turkey heaven and all points in between. | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged AlabamaSwamper Spike Member # 3739 posted 07-29-2004 03:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: Hogguide, I. Ever heard of "seperation of church and state"? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've read that dang ole constitution about 100 times and I still can't find that. Can someone show me where it says that. -------------------- "No Stronger Bond Exist than that Between A Man and His Dog" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 62 | From: Deer Heaven, Turkey heaven and all points in between. | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged hunt smart 4 Point Member # 3093 posted 07-29-2004 03:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pro choice is fine. Let the woman choose anything she wants to do, but don't let her choose to end another life that is not her own. Nobody else gets to choose that, why should she? It's not her life she's playing with, so why should she get to choose? -------------------- They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers !! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 495 | From: knoxville, tennessee | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged AlabamaSwamper Spike Member # 3739 posted 07-29-2004 03:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by hunt smart: Pro choice is fine. Let the woman choose anything she wants to do, but don't let her choose to end another life that is not her own. Nobody else gets to choose that, why should she? It's not her life she's playing with, so why should she get to choose? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good point. As I remember, the state of Michigan put a man in prison for helping people die as their own choice. Now, why is that wrong and abortion right? I'm not defending him, just making a point. -------------------- "No Stronger Bond Exist than that Between A Man and His Dog" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 62 | From: Deer Heaven, Turkey heaven and all points in between. | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged hunt smart 4 Point Member # 3093 posted 07-29-2004 03:11 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good point. I believe abortion to be morally wrong. That is what the down fall of this country is going to be, we have lost the ability to do anything with morals. -------------------- They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers !! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 495 | From: knoxville, tennessee | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-29-2004 03:24 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: On that last Question- Yes,if there is an outside reason for it not implanting.No- if God decided not to allow it to implant. Whoa! So every time a fertilized egg does not implant, it is "God's will" and that fertilized egg is not a person? That's a direct contradiction of the "life at conception" idea. Either a fertilized egg is or it isn't a person. Which is it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life begins at Conception Period.No matter what happens after for good or bad,life cannot happen with out this Gift from God. Gods will dosen't always get done when Man gets His Will in the way of the Fathers like not doing something they were supposed to do,or something they shouldn't be doing in the first place. You should know that with the above in mind,God sometimes changes his mind and will. -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged JRJNBAMA 4 Point Member # 1918 posted 07-29-2004 03:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a losing argument all the way around, it does nothing but pit people who are friends against each other. I dont agree with BSK on the statement that a father has no right till the baby is born. How would you feel BSK if your wife went behind your back and had an abortion without you knowing about it?? You wouldnt have that precious daughter you are always speaking so highly about. I have been in that boat brothers, and let me tell you, it isnt something that just goes away overnight. I had a g'friend, she was on the pill and she came up pregnant. She didnt tell me anything about it, not till it was too late. Can you imagine what could have been, what kind of life that child would have had and what kind of impact that he/she could have made in our society?? Up to that point in my life I didnt care, if a woman wanted to do that it was her choice, the government said it was ok. Well, I think a little differently now after not having a choice whatsoever. I think the whole world is in a state of chaos these days, our founding fathers would be appalled at some of the crap that is going on now. Our laws and even the constitution is so twisted that it isnt even funny. In the future, I'll stay out of these topics, but until you have been on the receiving end, I wouldnt push my opinions on others. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 370 | From: North Ala | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-29-2004 03:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BSK: What about the Rights of the Father of the Unborn? Do they not have a Say in this matter? Honestly, until the child is born, no I don't think the potential father has any rights. Not until he actually is a father. The idea of a man being able to legal force a woman to have a child she doesn't want to have is a terribly frightening idea. Very, very Orwellian. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for this second post I haven't got all this quoteing stuff down pat yet. I see where your coming from and repect your view. However I and at least some Courts don't share it. I have heard of and read several news reports of the father of the Unborn(LIFE) getting court orders to stop Abortions,rare but it does happen. I have also heard of and read news reports where a Father of the Unborn(life) files and wins civil actions for the wrongful and accdentail deaths of both mother and child. -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged Tiny 10 Point Member # 1862 posted 07-29-2004 04:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JRJNBAMA- Good post,sorry to hear about your loss. Your right this agrument does pit friends against friends.Hopefully it will cause us all to have more respect for our freinds on here and thier views. Heck if you can't agrue with your friends and stay friends,must not have been friends to start with. -------------------- Have a Great Day and God Bless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3786 | From: knoxville | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-29-2004 05:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jasonkb4 is who I intended the Einstine comment for not you J-Dawg, I should have put in his handel but forgot. The deer-man comment was for BSK he has at least a masters degree in biology or wildlife manegement dont know which and biologists talk about the facts but dont get into the true meaning of what they do.There needs to be some rules or biologists can run wild with their experiments,the german doctors in WWII are a good example of biology and science running wild without controles. We dont need to let doctors and biology people decide what is right either as they want to experiment, because they are ensationably curreous and can do things in a cold hearted manner sometimes.The experiments on black men at Tuskeegee in WWII shows how doctors can go wrong.They gave them a desease and watched them die without helping them just to see what happened in the finale stages of the disease.Heck any fool could have told them that the men would die as that disease was killing people by the thousands at that time before pennecilin came along everyone knew it was a scentence of death and knew what the disease did in its final stages without torturing those poor black farmers like that. we are not just talking about science here but of what is right and wrong that is the important thing the right and wrong of abortion .There are a lot of wrong minded, get rich at any price doctors out there now. They forget there code to first do no harm real easy these days. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home Jump to new posts ? Hello, Locksley [ log out ] Tennessee Deer Talk ? General Forums ? TnDeer General Forum ? Special Delivery for Hogguide (Page 5) UBBFriend: Email this page to someone! This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 Author Topic: Special Delivery for Hogguide Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-29-2004 05:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JRJUBAMA Sorry to here about your loss I pray that you will see that little child in a better place with our Heavenly Father someday. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged richmanbarbeque 6 Point Member # 2893 posted 07-29-2004 06:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JRBAMA, Great post for me you summed it all up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 656 | From: spring hill,tn | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged hogguide Moderator Member # 599 posted 07-29-2004 06:21 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: In my opinion it is not a child until it breathes on its own. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So your saying a prematurely born child shouldnt be offered care to live..It isnt human..right?? I just attened a funeral for a baby born 20 weeks early....Was that funeral for a human or a bag of DNA and blood?? The parents seem to believe it was a babay..Maybe I should inform them that they just wracked their minds, got way too emotional over something that "really isnt a babay" and wasted a foe 'thou" on a funeral they shouldnt have had. I guess they should have thrown it in a dumpster. I dont have to have the Bible or my religeous views to know that allowing a woman to murder a separate, living, human child in her womb is wrong. People that cant see that that is wrong are morally blinded. They have no heart, and no true sense of right and wrong. -------------------- "You aint had fun until you grab 200 pounds of bristles and tusks with one hand and a cold steel blade in the other"...."The South's Original Extreme Sport" www.tnboar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 5763 | From: "Jim Town" | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged Crappie Luck2 10 Point Member # 2688 posted 07-29-2004 06:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by jasonkb4: CL2, That child may be your own in a few years. Would you feel like a failure as a father if she came to you with that proposition? Maybe you would rather she did it on her own and never told you? Maybe you didn't like the "daddy" to begin with, Is it ok then? All my posts have mentioned the Womans right. Although I don't agree with abortion I think it is ok for her to decide. Maybe we should have a referrendum where only women are allowed to vote...their body their mind don't seem so bad to me. I also think the women's vote should end all this debate and opened again in ten years for the next generation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All I can hope is that if she puts HERSELF in that position, the we have given her the tools to stand and accept the results of her decision. I cetainly hope she doesn't choose to avoid the the resposibility of being a mother simply because it isn't what she "Planned" HOw far will we take this "Kill them if they are in your way" mentality. Perhaps today I'll put a bullet into the back of someones' head at the gas station because I have to pre-pay my gas and they are buying 30 dollars in scratch off tickets. Why not, they are in my way, I didn't PLAN on them changing my daily routine in this way. IT"S MY BODY and my feet are getting sore. murder is murder. and the murder of a child because they are altering the life you imagined for yourself is the apitomy of selfish. And a murder of someone who didn't choose to be here, the mother made that choice when she got pregnant. It's a simple matter of accepting resposibility for your actions. This rape and insest argument is setting a standard for poor behavior based on a rediculous small percentage of pregnancies. CL -------------------- If you ain't doing something to help hunting, your hurting hunting - Fred Bear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4071 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged TX300mag 8 Point Member # 2415 posted 07-29-2004 07:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe in a woman's right to choose; she can choose to keep her legs together or she can choose to get pregnant. Take it how you want. By the way, it's my body. Why can't I snort crack and shoot up with heroine? -------------------- You can't ride home on a bowl of goat...I've always said that. Guns kill people, just like the spoon made Rosie O'Donnel fat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1056 | From: possum holler | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Tennessee Todd Admin - Vous Dude Member # 27 posted 07-29-2004 07:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Instead of kiling innocent babies, why don't we start killing old people once they reach 80 or so? I mean come on, that's who we're having to pay for with our tax dollars in all these rest homes. They've had their life, those little babies haven't. It would make more sense to just kill the old people in my opinion. You people that agree with slamming forceps through the head of a little baby ought to agree with that shouldn't you???? If not, why? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 8068 | From: East Tn | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Tennessee Todd Admin - Vous Dude Member # 27 posted 07-29-2004 07:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And by the way, the father is 100% as responsible (if not more) for that child than the mother is. That's half our problem today is that all these dead beat peckerhead Dad's that won't take responsibility for their actions. Makes me sick when I see a young girl have to go through that alone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 8068 | From: East Tn | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged moondawg 10 Point Member # 2005 posted 07-29-2004 08:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Tennessee Todd: And by the way, the father is 100% as responsible (if not more) for that child than the mother is. That's half our problem today is that all these dead beat peckerhead Dad's that won't take responsibility for their actions. Makes me sick when I see a young girl have to go through that alone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amen!! It takes TWO to tango, so the saying goes. -------------------- Sorry, the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.--moondawg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4390 | From: Millington, TN | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged TX300mag 8 Point Member # 2415 posted 07-29-2004 06:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I bet half the closet liberals on here couldn't tell you about how these abortions are done. They don't want to think about it. Actually seeing (or having) one performed has changed more minds (although a little too late) than civil discussions. Conclusions based upon reason and reality seem to be few and far between for liberals. -------------------- You can't ride home on a bowl of goat...I've always said that. Guns kill people, just like the spoon made Rosie O'Donnel fat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1056 | From: possum holler | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged Whitehorse 10 Point Member # 188 posted 07-29-2004 06:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good posts TT!!! I don't care what they''ve written about you on the bathroom walls around the state, I think you're an OK fellow! I've posted my views on abortion & why I feel that way - OK only if there is indisputable medical evidence that the mother will die. I'm too tired to re-post it & have to go to a city council meeting anyway... Early 90's I went to Washington DC for a pro-life rally, attended by upwards of a real 1 million folks, (the media said there were about 300,000). We got buttons that simply showed parts of an aborted fetus. I got one with a partial head. Talk about pissing a chuckle-headed liberal off, just let them see that & they went sputtering & stammering. -------------------- Some will die in hot pursuit in firey auto crashes. Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes. Some will fall in love with life & drink it from a fountain that is flowing like an avalanche, coming down the mountain! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3299 | From: Pegram TN USA | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Locksley 4 Point Member # 1548 posted 07-30-2004 07:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The truth hurt even hard hearted liberals as it should. -------------------- R H -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 461 | From: Antioch TN | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged TX300mag 8 Point Member # 2415 posted 07-31-2004 01:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I saw the ultra-sound images of my little girl today. At 18 weeks, we counted 10 fingers and 10 toes. She was active the entire time, moving and changing positions. Anybody who would condone waiting a few more weeks and then either sucking her brain out or pulling her apart by the limbs is morally SICK. That's murder, plain and simple. Some things are what they are, no matter what you believe or feel. -------------------- You can't ride home on a bowl of goat...I've always said that. Guns kill people, just like the spoon made Rosie O'Donnel fat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1056 | From: possum holler | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged 
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