Anarchist Bomb?

[sfga6970]

Today the Army uses a 40mm grenade. During Vietnam, it was more like a large shotgun (M79) with several types of rounds. They were effective but the grenadier had to carry another weapon for close combat. Today the grenade tube is under the barrel of the M-16 (M203?) which cuts down on the equipment carried.

Before the M79, there was a grenade launched by the M-1. You had to attach an extension to the barrel, insert the grenade on the end of the extension and use specially designed rounds to launch it. The recoil was such that you had to put the butt of the weapon on the ground and aim it and gauge your distance by changing the angle of the weapon. If you shoulder fired it, you would probably dislocate your shoulder. The new system is much more efficient.

[revwardoc]

There were even grenade launchers during the American Revolution. They hooked onto the musket using the bayonet lug and had an elongated bell shapedtube for firing the grenade. The musket was loaded with a blank charge, then the launcher with grenadewas fitted onto the bayonet lug, the musket was cocked, "aimed", the grenade fuse was lit, and the musket was fired. The launcher itself weighed about 2-4 pounds depending on if it was made of brass or iron. Either way it drastically affected the balance of the musket. In most cases the grenadier used a monopod with a U-shaped top to hold up the weighted muzzle. We sometimes use ours to fire tennis balls just for fun and can shoot them 75-100 yards. We've even used old billiard and croquet balls though they don't go as far, but its still fun! Once, after a "battle", wefired a black-painted tennis ball fillid with talcum powder. You should've seen it as it arched through the air with the powder coming out of it. It looked like a real grenade with a smoldering fuse...a great visual!

I love the smell of talcum powder in the morning. Smell like...a diaper. (Sorry Bob Duval)

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -

Well, so what is the difference between a grenade and a mortar? Sounds like they are basically the same? Or is it just a matter of explosive power?

[colmurph]

The grenade is the Projectile, the Mortar is the Projector.
The old "Pineapple" grenades have been superceeded twice that I know of. The original Pineapple (grid shell) was loaded with black powder but that did ot give a very good fragmentation effect. Sometimes the grenade would only split up into three or four parts. They then started using TNT as a filler which gave better results but still not very good as the body was of cast iron. They next went to a grenade with the same general egg shape but with a smooth outer casing of thin steel. Inside was a coiled square wire that was grooved every 4 mm. The filler was TNT and this gave a much better fragmentation effect. The last was the "Baseball" grenade which has a thin steel case which is filled with a triple layer of BB's in an epoxy coating on the inside which is then scattered by C-4, a much more powerful explosive than TNT. The "Baseball" once came with two types of fuzes. One was a regular delay and the other was a delay with an impact feature. Lots of guys got killed because they didn't understand how to use them. When you let the spoon fly the delay (5 1/2 second) would start but if it impacted something before the 5 1/2 seconds were up it would detonate. Some guys thought they could let the spoon fly and hold the thing all day without it going off.......last mistake they ever made. Needless to say, these were taken out of the supply system.

[BLUEHAWK]

Colonel Murph -

Thank you guys for your patience on this...

- So, is EVERY projectile in EVERY mortar called a grenade?

- I looked at that amazing old Coehorn mortar photograph, and now it occurs to me I still cannot reason out HOW the grenade gets blown out of the cylinder? I've seen our guys just drop a grenade into a mortar, and then in a few second it blasts out of there. How? Why the delay, or does it actually fly out right away?

- Did the grenades in a Coehorn type mortar come out the same way they do in today's mortars?

- In what part of the U.S. service do grenadiers have their duty? Artillery? Cavalry? Or are they assigned to units separately?

- Is there such a thing as a Grenadiers unit anymore?

- Do Grenadiers have their own distinctive shoulder patches or unit insignia?

- In the Civil War weren't there really gigantic mortars and grenades? What calibre were those?

- How in the world did they manage to get grenades INTO those mortars?

- I saw a brief TV program during the invasion period in Iraq, of one of our guys demonstrating several steps he had to take in aiming a mortar. It looked like it took him five minutes. Does it?

- Does a mortar-fired grenade, vs. a hand-thrown one, also fragment on impact?

[sfga6970]

A mortar and a grenade are two different weapons. A grenade is usually thrown or launched by a hand held grenade launcher. You could say that a mortar is "small artillery" used by infantry units. The mortar round looks similar to a rocket, such as that in the bazooka and has an impact fuse. There are several different sizes used, but the most common are the 81mm and 4.2in mortars. SOF still use the 60mm but only in special circumstances.

Set up time depends on the training and ability of the crew. The 4.2 is the toughest to set up, wth aiming circles, charges etc. but it can reach out farther than the others and is quite effective.

[BLUEHAWK]

Guys -
Thank you all...

Today PF has a gallery photo of the M-79 grenade launcher on the home page, and it shows the shoulder piece of the stock turning UPwards, opposite of the usual long gun (I believe). Why would that be?

[sfga6970]

The angle of the stock is different because the angle of aim is not the same as it would be for a rifle. The Muzzle velocity of the M79 is much less than that of a rifle so you have to aim higher than horizontal. If you look at pictures of the sight, you will see that it is much higher than the sight for a high velocity weapon. It is more like a shoulder fired mortar than a rifle.

It might be similar to comparing an artillery round to a tank round - different trajectories. An experienced M79 gunner can put an HE round through a window at 200 yds or more -- You can't throw a grenade that far.

[BLUEHAWK]

sfga (I don't know yet a better way to address you)

- So then, would a M-79 gunner be allowed sufficient opportunity for practise in order to actually PUT an HE round (what does HE mean?) through a window at 200 yards! Cripes... or do they have to get that on their own? If so, how do they manage! 200 yards is quite a long way, two football fields!

- What you are saying is that a rifle-fired round goes more or less straight (hopefully) to a target , whereas a grenade launcher gunner must account far more for trajectory and windage and such as that?

- How IS windage (my best professional terminology) accounted for in the firing of such a weapon under the duress of battle!

- Assuming one gunner can only carry so many rounds upon themselves, how in the world do they obtain additional ones in time of need? What should happen if they run out!!!

- What relationship does size (calibre or mm) of the bore, with length of casing and therefore quantity of charge, have to do with how far a projectile will accurately (taking into account good aiming) travel?

I am rather proud to state, if you will allow this, that I, having never before fired a rifle in my life, came within 6 points of Expert on the range first time out! I know this must sound juvenile, but it was an achievement for one such as me. That was 1963. And, what is more, in 1990, a friend took me to a pistol range for the experience of firing his personal sidearms. I put nearly all shots (45, 357,9,&38) well within the important target locations, at 50 yards. Today, my eyes are not quite so capable.

I so admire infantry soldiers, who under fire must aim if they are able. And, who in firing thus, serve to protect freedom.

Had I to do it over, I should like to have been considered for a Marine. I believe I would have had a fair chance to become one.

Thank you guys for tolerating my queries... it really does mean a lot.

[colmurph]

The Coehorn Mortar has a sub-chamber in the bottom of the barrel to hold the powder. The bomb is placed in the tube (bore) from the front and when the fuse of the mortar is lit the powder in the chamber explodes and propels the bomb upward and outward at a 45 degree angle. Range is determined by the powder charge and not elevation in these old mortars. The elevation is fixed at 45 degrees. The range of one of these old things was around 600 yards max. All mortars are front loaded. The 60mm, 81mm and 4.2" mortar that you have probably seen in war pictures have a propellant charge at the base of the projectile that looks something like a shotgun cartrige and also attached pieces of nitro cellulose. Range is controlled by elevation and powder charge (the nitrocellulose pieces are the propellant) There is a firing pin fixed to the bottom of the tube in the case of the 81mm and the 4.2" mortar and when the round slides down the tube the base charge primer hits this pin and the round if fired. The 60mm mortar has a selector type firing pin. You can either set it for "Drop Fire" or you can manually fire the mortar after the round has been dropped in the tube.

Old or new, the round comes out the same way it went into the tube. In the case of the coehorn, it had a powder charge in the bottom of the tube that was lit off the same way you would fire an old cannon. If you look at both pictures of the coehorn you will see the touch hole under the GR crown in top of the tube.