The Face of My Enemy

[frisco-kid]

What a long, strange trip this thread has been. More twists and turns in it than a mountain road. Interesting how it went from talking about a book to a pissing contest about AA. I'm gonna talk about the book.

James, being the generous friend that he is, gave me the book to read. I don't think it gave me anymore of a respect for the enemy than I already had. Already knew how ingenius and industrious they could be. The pictures of them in combat wasn't anymore impressive than the ones that I can conjure up in my mind's eye of us in combat.

That's not to say that the book isn't an impressive one, though. It's an excellent showcase of the photographers that took the pictures. Hell, I never even thought of them having their own combat photographers. The book is pretty much in sections by photographer, each section showing that photographers work. The book in no way glorifies Communist doctorine in it's text, but many of the photos are definately posed propoganda pictures. Like the Lenin-esque photo of the girl with the M-16 looking beyond the horizon that Andy commented on. Or the picture that James posted of the two VC setting up a Claymore.

The book has no pictures of dead GIs. Unlike ALL of the American coffee table picture books of the war that I've seen that show alot of pictures of dead VC/NVA. I don't doubt that they had them, though. Their absence probably is because the book was edited by Americans and published by National Geographic. There are several photos of ARVN casualties, though. Personally, I liked the photos that showed me things that I didn't know about them. Like a dance troupe that entertained their troops in the field. The equivelent of Bob Hope's show.

I think this would be a good addition to anybody's Vietnam War book collection. Personally, I don't have such a collection but I enjoyed reading/looking at this one.

[SEATJERKER]

...I looked at the pictures, and the same thought of posing propoganda struck me, but Andy/ Frisco called it with the "lenin-esque" posture, so I can again learn, and put two, and two together,...

.... James, Look forward to meeting you in Georgia, I hope you can talk as much as you type, Man, you can swing some letters, I'm a "finger picker" on this thing, and I do personaly want to tell you that you would make my mother proud, she was a very good typest in her day on a manual, something like 90 wpm, but you seem to have it down pat, I know you gotta be fast, cause if I was to type as much as you, I'd be on this thing 24 /7,...

...just tryin' to kick it down a notch, everybody doin' 78's, and I'm still on 45's, and I can't keep up,...

...I'll bring the lozenges,... Halse, smith brothers, any body have a preference,...

...

[frisco-kid]

I've already expressed my stand on my hate, and eventual lack of, of the Vietnamese on another thread that I started. Like anybody else, I don't like being painted with a broad brush. But taking an honest look back at my 19yr. old self, I probably did have some predjudice against the Vietnamese. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I dehumanized them, though. I didn't need to to kill them. Just knowing that they were the enemy was all I needed. I did use the derroguetory terms GOOK, DINK, ZIP, etc. at times. I don't know that this was out of predjudice as much as it being the common vernacular at the time which, I now realize, is no excuse. I have moved beyond this many years ago. A couple of weeks ago I went to the swearing-in of a Vietnamese friend, and co-worker, when he became an American Citizen. This was at his request, and I was proud of the invite.

I, too, took part in the relocation and destruction of the villes in the Song Ve, but just for the first couple of weeks of Operation Malheur II because of my DEROS. Like James, and most everyone else, I found this very distasteful, but it was something that I had no control over. I did see a couple guys doing this with a bit of pleasure, but they were definately the minority. I lose no sleep over my personal conduct then, which is all that counts to me.

Most of you who have known me on here for a few years have heard the stories of my adventures during the 2 weeks I spent in Saigon while seeing a dermotologist for jungle rot. It was in OCT66 and I was 19. I DID NOT use any of my free time, of which I had plenty, teaching English to the Vietnamese or visiting orphanages. I DID spend alot of my time bar crawling on Tu Do St, in Cholon, etc., and getting laid as often as possible, never knowing when it was going to end and I was going to go back to humping the boonies. This was, BY FAR, my best time in Nam. It was better than my R&R because it was twice as long. Hope this doesn't ruin my image for anyone . Brice, I respect you alot for trying to give something positive back to the Vietnamese people, and I mean that.

I don't agree that Communism was the saviour of Vietnam. I think it was PEACE in general. Any country is going to be better off in peacetime than in war, no matter who's in charge. I think that they would be even BETTER off if the Communists had packed up and moved back across the DMZ and lived and let live. Also, the peace that we observed on our trip didn't start the day Saigon fell. There was many years of re-education camps, prison camps, people being outright killed, and people disappearing in the night. The conditions there today has only stabilized in the last 10yrs, or so, and there are still cracks in the system that I've pointed out before. I believe that it will only continue to get better, for reasons that James and I have stated in the past. I think you're mistaken in thinking that James embraced the ideals of Communism during his visit. It's the ideals of Peace. I, too, plan on returning next year to explore more that I missed this last time around.

I don't know or care who Ann Coulter is, but if she really made some of the statements attributed to her here, she's not anyone that I would care to learn about any way. I don't care if she makes broad statements about me and millions of others. It only shows her ignorance and spitefulness. I know that she's not the voice of all Republicans any more than Brice is, or than James or Gimpy are for all Democrats. If this point is going to be argued anymore, please take it to the proper forum.

[Arrow]

Brice,

Forget it and drive on brother, don't mean nothin'.Those that know you know. Thank you for your service to this country and "Welcome Home"

Arrow>>>>>>

[exlrrp]

[i]I don't agree that Communism was the saviour of Vietnam. I think it was PEACE in general. Any country is going to be better off in peacetime than in war, no matter who's in charge. I think that they would be even BETTER off if the Communists had packed up and moved back across the DMZ and lived and let live. Also, the peace that we observed on our trip didn't start the day Saigon fell. There was many years of re-education camps, prison camps, people being outright killed, and people disappearing in the night. The conditions there today has only stabilized in the last 10yrs, or so, and there are still cracks in the system that I've pointed out before. I believe that it will only continue to get better, for reasons that James and I have stated in the past. I think you're mistaken in thinking that James embraced the ideals of Communism during his visit. It's the ideals of Peace. I, too, plan on returning next year to explore more that I missed this last time around.

.

Re James and Communism
I am in no way a Communist--I am actually a true capitalist which means I resent all the corporate welfare happening and I have run my own contracting business since 1981 (havent done much last couple years) I believ in our system but it has some huge holes in it. If there's a label to me it might be Cosmic Libertarianism. I believe everybody in our country (and ultimately the world should have ennough resources to suit his needs. If that means jacking rich people to feed poor people, well, Robin Hood was a good guy, wasn't he? The rich people aren't going to give it voluntarily--just look at Cheney for instance
I put enough holes in Communists to know real well how I feel about em. And they were some tough sonsabitches, no doubt, really motivated people, not at all ;like the ones on our side. I always wondered why--I think they thought they had a better stake in that than what we were offering and unfortunately they may have been right. What we put in place was a corrupt autocratic dictatorship and kept calling it democracy--we thought the Vietnamese were too dumb and unsophisticated to know the difference but they were not. I think now that most of the Vietnamese had a lot better understanding of the political situation than we did, which in my case was not much.

There's Communism and there's Communism. N Korea, while nominally a Communist government is actuially an oligarchy.
The Vietnamese brand of Communism seems at least home grown and they have group leadership which is at least a start. I think the Vietnamese are the worlds greatest people at taking stuff and adapting it to their needs and that is what they did with Communism.
It seems to be filling their needs adequately now--94% literacy, the 3d biggest rice exporter in Asia. Everybody looked healthy, tere was plenty of leisure type objects around, like waterslides and such that you could tell they had leisure time to spend. Look at the kidsThe streets were bustling, the stores cranned with goods. This is a natiion of small shopkeepers, I think they'll evolve out of Communism.
I think the worst thing we can do is fear them and threaten them. Look how much the system has improved with a few years of benign neglect. This is a country that has never actually considered launching an attack against the United States proper in its existence and they wouild have no earthly reason to do it now--theyre anxious for us as a trading partner. We can influence them bigtime now and they want us in--why should we fear them any more.
If you want to subvert Communism the best thing you can do is promote free and open exchange and thats whats going on now and thats what I'm suggesting. Sure doesn't look like the Vietnamese want to create trouble, they swept the Tiger Force thing under the rug--Whoa, faults on both sides, we guess, now sign this contract--they don't want old memories around clogging things up

My trip to Vietnam last year was eyeopening to me because I saw how racist I had been, really came in touch with it. When I was there before, it was easy to dehumanize them because they alk looked so foreign--black PJs, cone hats. But when they looked just like people I see every day at the gym or on the streets, I know for sure we could not treat them like we treated them last time. I realized h0w disrespectful I had been before and I vowed to chgange my ways
It was a big cathartic trip for me . I get choked up looking at the pictures yet.
Communists are human--no doubt about it. Just look at the pictures

James

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SEATJERKER ...I looked at the pictures, and the same thought of posing propoganda struck me, but Andy/ Frisco called it with the "lenin-esque" posture, so I can again learn, and put two, and two together,...

.... James, Look forward to meeting you in Georgia, I hope you can talk as much as you type, Man, you can swing some letters, I'm a "finger picker" on this thing, and I do personaly want to tell you that you would make my mother proud, she was a very good typest in her day on a manual, something like 90 wpm, but you seem to have it down pat, I know you gotta be fast, cause if I was to type as much as you, I'd be on this thing 24 /7,...

...just tryin' to kick it down a notch, everybody doin' 78's, and I'm still on 45's, and I can't keep up,...

...I'll bring the lozenges,... Halse, smith brothers, any body have a preference,...

...

Thanks--James

[exlrrp]

[i]Originally posted by SEATJERKER [/i...I'm a simple man, heartfelt, and true, and have never heard a "quote" from Anne whoever, and don't give a shi+ post one, and I'll look at it, but your attacks of Brice seems to have gone a bit too far,...

...From one who is supposed to be so "compasionate", you sure do a job of whacking on the man, a man who might have a different party affiliation then you, but shared the same mud you did,...


...

Someone who endorses the view that I and everybody like me are liars cowards and traitors I owe no respect or loyalty at all to and they wiill get none out of me. I want them out of my life, they add nothing positive to it. I had to stand there and put up with crap in the army but I am not in the army any more
I do not intend to put up with that in any aspect of my life and will drop anyone out of life that appears to be holding those views.
If you share those views in any aspect or want this person for your friend more than me, than feel free to make those choices. We have a whole different idea about what good is

James

[BLUEHAWK]

'Member when, back on the school yard, when we was pickin' up sides for to make the best team?

Well, we here patriots all, we are the BESTEST team... and we HAVE a common enemy which ain't any of us (cept' fer the provocateurs, who know their own names even if none of us do)

I would gladly serve on ANY field of battle with you, bretheren and sisteren.

The enemy is not among US, and THE enemy hopes like hell they can keep us arguing long enough for us to destroy ourselves, eh?

The War of Rebellion fictively ended in 1865. A side "won". So now we go with the side that "won", and stick with the CINC.

Lessons learned from VN, beloved and trusted friends... lessons learned because the definition of insanity is to keep doing things the same way and expecting a different result, no?

[ArtySgt]

James, There you go with another ultimatum, can't we all just get along ?

[SEATJERKER]

"If you share those views in any aspect or want this person for your friend more than me, than feel free to make those choices. We have a whole different idea about what good is"

...James,...

...I don't pick, and choose friends, or want one more then another, that sounds pretty childish to me,...

...I admire, and respect ALL of the people that I have come across here on the boards, and will not split hairs determining down to "one phrase" what makes up a friendship,...

...I've told you before that I hold a very special bond with you as you are the only other person I know that has held his/her ground while being pissed on, sick as it may sound to some, There was a time when neither of us could move, or let go due to potential lives being lost,... yours, and mine, or others,...

...I don't "heap" you into a catagory of my way, or the highway over your expressed feelings of who is right, or who is wrong involving a political front, you state you are a Liberal, "OK" fine with me, I'm registered Democrat, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything all Democrats say, or do, that's the American way, but I put those feelings aside when it comes to brotherhood/sisterhood,... like it, or not, you, and all Veterans are equal to me, and I hold none above, or below the other as we have all served this Nation in one way , or another,...

...I consider you to be my friend,...
...I consider SuperScout to be my friend,...
...I consider Gimpy to be my friend,...
...I consider Fred to be my friend,...
...I consider Andy to be my friend,...
...I consider Larry to be my friend,...
...I consider Sis to be my friend,...
...I consider Paco to be my friend,...
...I consider John to be my friend,...
...I consider Sid to be my friend,...
...I consider David to be my friend,...
...I consider Bern to be my friend,...
...I consider Frisco to be my friend,...
...I consider Scamp to be my friend,...
...I consider Chris to be my friend,...
...I consider Griz to be my friend,...
...I consider Keith to be my friend,...
...I consider Catman to be my friend,...
...I consider Rigger to be my friend,...
...I consider Bits to be my friend,...
...I consider reeb to be my friend,...
...I consider Tropo to be my friend,...
...I consider all of you to be my friends as I don't have that many around here that are that close to me, and if I left anyone out, I apoligize, but my point is, friendship don't come cheap, and I hold those dearest to me in very high regards, and I for one will not take my keyboard, and go home because someone doesn't agree with me, and I will not allow any other to cheapen, or delute what i consider to be a friendship with any others another due to a difference of political opinion,...

...We all swore to live, or die protecting the rights of all here in this Nation, different times, different places,, and I for one am proud that I was allowed to live after my experience, you lived also,...

...so let's live,...

...Love ya,...

...Curtis,...