Loosing my driver and one back seat guy

[39mto39g]

I have a rule of thumb that I go by when pulling up to a structure fire, If the flames are less than 20 feet through the roof, we are going in.
Well the other day we had a structure fire and when we pulled up the flames were around 30 feet through the roof and comming out of every window and door also. I told the guys we were going in. We did and about 30 min latter had the fire under control.
My driver told me I was nuts and asked for a shift transfer, I gave it to him, One back seat guy told me this was way to dangerous and enrolled in sugens assistant school, he gave his two week notice .
My other back seat guy said he was never leaving me and would stay with me until I retired.
I have had several people wanting to come drive for me and to sit behind me. I have been thinking though. Maybe I don't really need to go into a burning building that the fire is 20 feet through the roof.
Its just, My crew has always been the strongest, fastes, most brave, willing to do anything I told them kind of group of guys.
Hears an example, we were on our way to a 30 passenger jet plan on fire comming into our airport, I told the driver to pull out right behind the plane whe it was touching down, I told one guy in the back when we got there to dive through the fire into the airplane to protect the people and me and the other firefighter would be 10 seconds behind him with a hose line. All I heard was,, OK.
I guess what Im asking is when is it a good time to S L O W down? Im getting a wee might old now.

Ron

[sn-e3]

Answer to your question Ron if you question your actions from the shift before its time to hand over the reins to a new cowboy before someone gets hurt. I'm not knocking your judgement but you are in no position to doubt yourself. because that is when you can get hurt or hurt someone else. your friend chris

[DMZ-LT]

What Cris said. Only you can answer that question Ron.

[39mto39g]

I constantly question my dissisions. That don't mean I make good or bad dissisions. I can make instant dissisions based on what I see at that particuler time. Its all just a judement and a knollege of what you and your crew can actually do.
Everyone has good and bad points as to there physical and mental abilities. I have to know each person that is with me that day and adjust my dissision making according to there abilities.
Thats why I don't work with most girls in the fire service. They are to quick to say "I can't" Thats the easyest way to get off my crew, just say those words.

[Keith_Hixson]

The fire had been burning for a few hours and the chief said take a crew in and look around. I stepped through the door and went about ten feet, a big timber 6 x 6 came down and just missed me by about six inches. We backed out real quick and waited until morning to assess the damage. Of course this was a fire that had been burning for several hours. When the CPT or Chief said go, I went. Never felt anyone gave me a bad order. I'd drive for you.

Keith

[Boats]

I've read you comment three times and each time I read it I just felt I had to reply. I've had several fire fighting schools while in the service.

I've got great respect for those who fight fires. My uncle fought them for 25 years in Chicago before he retired. Brave men some too brave and some get hurt and some died.

Making a call with others lives at stake is very hard to do and must be done instaneously many times. You can only hope their training was the best you could give them and that they are men you can count on and hope they will not freeze up.

Risking ones life on a daily basis can sometimes lead to invincible feeling. You may be taking things a little less serious at times based on your own experience. But the new guys may be really frightened and/or they are not just ready for that type of service. It's a special breed to do what you do.

I had to take fire fighting in the Navy it was mandatory in order to save the ship - should it catch fire - or to learn how to save a life if it became necessary. Or just maybe just save my own life.

I've been in some hairy positions in my life - some make me wonder what hell am I doing here! Besides being lucky on two more occassions I've been somewhere that I could do some good for others. Sometimes I just was just too late and there was nothing I could do - but felt if I could've been there I could have made a difference. You know the shoulda - coulda and woulda stuff.

Ron these guys have given you good advice and I won't pretent to tell anyone when the time has come for others to do something else. You and they have to make that call.

It's a gut wrenching thing when we have to make that call each of us will know when the time is right. I've learned that usually your first instinct is the correct one but when you stop and think about it - its usually too late - your history or someone else is.

In closing I want to say I thank you for your public service to our fellow men and women and to just be safe. You have my respect and my gratitude- Thank you and your men from me.

[Seascamp]

My suggestion is that if you haven?t already done so, that you get some fire science backup for the 20 ft. rule. If that is a judgment call you make, I?d sure as heck have a solid and verifiable reason for making the call or you are open to all kinds second-guessing and possible criticism. Fire fighting is by definition a calculated risk and the better the calculations the lower the risk in my opinion and sometimes experience, knowledge and gut feel need some backup and vocalized reasons why. Just a thought.

Scamp

[39mto39g]

Kieth-- sorry but , your way to old and out of shape, You need a chiefs job.
My driver has to be able to drag 5inch hose at least 200 feet. help pull hand lines, disscuss with me tactical operations that are to take place NOW, rescue a firefighter that the roof fell in on, direct incomming engine companies cause I'll be inside, Be incharge of the station when I take off, Be able to do everything like I would and not get paid for it.

Boats-- I do understand that the new guys may be frightened of some of the places I go and I don't take it lightly.
One structure fire I had a Newbe and I could tell he was scared. I went into the burning area with him, I told him to wait before he put water on the fire, I told him to look around and find his exit cause he wouldn't be able to see after he flowed water. We were in the living room of some huge house, I told him to wait one second. I went to the couch and sat down and put my feet on the coffee table, then I told him ok go ahead, He started to laugh and that made him less afraid. (it wasn't as easy as it sounds) there was fire all around us. Anyway he made it . the fire went out and no one got hurt.

Ron

[39mto39g]

The 20 foot rule is just a thing for my back seat guys, If we pull up to a house and there is fire comming of a couple windows, they don't have to wait to ask me what to do Tactically. I can change directions in a heartbeat, from attack to defence and back to attack, it all depends on what I see in front of me. I have never been questioned about a tactical dissision I made on a fire scene. When it comes to making life or death dissisions with my back seat guys lifes I don't make misstakes ---ever. Ive got enough firefighting experience for 5 officers, 120 college hours, Lots of Fire science, Ive stood in front of a Natural gas fire with explodeing tanks and 300 foot flames. and on and on and on.

Ron

[Seascamp]

Thanks for the feedback Ron and I already assumed you have all the credentials and experience anyone could ask for plus make excellent spot calls. My point was that making a technical fire science argument when your tactical judgments are questioned might help. You most likely don?t have anything to change or back off from aside from perhaps giving the whys and wherefores of tactical decisions whilst in a de brief or training situation. If you are already doing that, then you have the basses totally covered and just carry on doing your normal and excellent job of leadership. Attrition and disagreements happen as it is the way of things and I doubt firemen are exempt from this and you shouldn?t take it personal at all unless YOU see something you need to do differently. But that?s your call and I?m certain you?ll make the right call, as always.

Scamp

P.S. In my VFD days I was only qualified on the small brush fire rigs and not structural fires or the big pumpers. One lesson that scared the pee out of me is that when facing a brush fire and the wind starts is at yer back all of a sudden, haul buns right now as its coming and consuming real fast and it?s the boss. I was told that in class but until I experienced it and felt it, I?m not sure I really understood the fire science and had to have the experience and told about the fire science aspect again. So that is the basis of my comments. Some of us don't get it the first time around and need to couple experience with class to really get a grip on things.