Deja Vu

[xgrunt]

In the early 60's a confused encounter between US navel vessals that "might" have been fired upon by NV Navy gunboats was used as grounds to pass an unprecendented[sp] resolution. The Tonkin Gulf resolution that gave the President unlimited war-making powers. Ten years and 58,000 plusdead and more dying every day we can see the result of not utilizing the system of checks and balences inherent in the Constitution. Now, we have another resolution being offered up, not because of any active condition but under the guise of this is a bad man ans he's trying to get weapons of mass destruction. All this in time to take the Country's mind off the fact that the economy is tanking in large part by the actions of those "entrusted" to oversee our corperations and companies. With less than a month to go to mid-term elections I feel that an old term could be brought back to use"JINGOISM"That's the ability to say with a straight face that if you don't support the ruling party and their wishs you're unamerican. Doesn't matter if the person making that charge ever spent a day in combat-he By God knows whats right for the country. I find it ironic to say the least that those loudest with cries for war never served and those saying wait let's look at this clearly and not emotionaly earned their spurs in combat. :cd:

[xgrunt]

Maybe it's misplaced pride but I always felt that we The Vets of Nam who did our best even if the Political masters and The Overall Generalship didn't have clue to what was going on. When truth was stretched until it broke[one blood trail would become 10 bodies by the time Saigon was thru with it] I always felt that we would speak the words the country needed to hear NEVER AGAIN would our youth be squandered for minimal political gain. If we invade Iraq what then How long do we occupy it? 20 30 years? If you don't count the Indian wars America has always prided ourselves on not striking first. Are we going to change that attitude and become the bullies of the world so many claim we are already? I don't know and have no true answer for all these points but I do have the word that a 23 year vet of the Army,who was a POW in Germany fought in Korea and was still on active duty during the Oct Missle Crisis in 62 told me recently he said" Our State Department was resonsible for killing more Americans that any of our enymies[sp] Besides Saddam tried to kill his Daddy.xgrunt

[Arrow]

but have all of the above questions plus one. Once we are in will we ever get out? Ten years on the ground maybe more keeping peace...surrounded by millions of Arabs...shades of Mogadishu...

[phuloi]

I n December,1941 the Japanese made an unprescidented surprise attack within the shores of our homeland.The United States responded swiftly with the emergence of a military might unheard of in the history of global conflict. In September,2001...60 years later,our homeland once again came under attack,brutally killing more than the Japs did at Pearl Harbor.As terrible and decietful as the attack on Pearl was.the fact remains that it was on a military installation.Not so with the cowards that flew commercial(loaded,mind you)airliners into the heart of America!WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED!To suggest that GW is trying to overcome a political deficiency by retaliating is absurd.

[xgrunt]

15 of the 19 pilots who flew the planes were Saudis why then are we not targeting the House Of Saud? Saddam has been in place for the years ever since the 1st Gulf War. Why the Hue and cry now? N Korea has admitted have nuke devices and they are part of the Axis of evil why aren't we full tilt boogie after them? Iran has sponsered more state supported terrorism that we can prove,why no hue and cry over them. Jingoism was a term used during the Spanish-American crisis of 1897-98. The publisher William Randolph Hearst said"Send me the pictures and I'll give you the War" now it's a matter of Making enough Public Statements on the evils of Saddam and The Republican right will get their war. Yes we were attacked by an underground group of terrorists and there are those who need to see a physical response as in many dead enemies on the ground. But I admit I am very very cnyical about the hidden agendas being promoted under the guise of patriotism. Keep in mind LBJ in the election of 64 was seen as the "Peace" canidate and Goldwater the war "crazie". He trashed the Great Society just so he would not lose in his words to some pissy little country. All this war rhetoric right before the mid-term elections I feel is just being done to push the "ins" agendas and not serve as useful dialogue for we as a people to reflect on debate and decide our future course as a nation. :cl:

[DMZ-LT]

Just got back from Boston , where talk and debate seem to have given rise to our country ( plus a little gun fire ) As a good friend of mine would say - play well with the others, today

[Arrow]

although I hate to disagree with my sweet Brother Griz (and everyone knows I loveth him with all my heart) I just don't get why we are going after Iraq now instead of the Saudi's. Some bubble headed bleached blonde said in a news commentary today that Iraq was a much bigger fish to fry than North Korea. I think not. We're in pretty good company though. Colin Powell feels the weight of the wrong decisions made regard Vietnam and was not hawkish on Iraq. I will take his experience in Vietnam over Rumsfields rhetoric any day. I never have got the saying up to my ass in alligators. Have no idea where it came from. But I now have a vision of our troops scattered all over the world from Bagdad to the PI and up to their ass in alligators. Nite you guys Love you all. sis

[blues clues]

sis you asked why Iraq not North Konea one word OIL OIL OIL sorry three words.
razz

[SuperScout]

As xgrunt pointed out, the Tonkin Gulf Resolution was predicated on a lie, as justification by a lying President to keep sending us into the meatgrinder. Neither he nor his cabintet members, nor the senior military had the cajones to do the right thing, either commit to a counterinsurgency instead of piece-meal WWII.3 tactics, or simply pull out and completely abrograte our treaty commitments with the South Vietnamese. And please, don't anybody try to argue this patented BS about a so-called civil war - there always were and always will be at least 3 different Vietnams, all peopled by different folks.

To say it's simply about oil, is to profess membership in the Flat Earth Society, the MoonWalk Never Happened Club, and the I Can't See Daylight Because of Rectal Defolade Committee.

Perhaps one of the reasons we haven't targeted the Saudis, yet, is because they don't possess single-stage rockets capable of launching a warhead 600+ miles. Another might be that the Saudis don't pose a threat to anyone by themselves; their military is too inept (I've trained with them), the House of Saud is too afraid of internal revolt, so they keep the military close at hand, and finally, their eyeballs are too closely linked to their bank accounts. Their very existence is predicated on oil; without us and Europe, Saudi would be a third-world country with oil as their major staple, not export item.

Kindly refer back to your history books: during the occupation of both Germany and Japan, were we not surrounded by millions of our former enemy? Did we not pull these occupations off with great skill, compassion, and success, with minimal loss of life? To compare the occupation of Germany with our performance in Somalia is so beyond apples-and-oranges.

And finally, yes I served, earned not only my spurs, but several pounds of scar tissue, and am still advocating agressive action against Iraq. With two sons on active duty, I have a great deal at risk, but fully understand the consequences of inaction.

[blues clues]

some of what you say is true but even you will have to admit North Korea would have to be the biggest threat because they do have missiles that can reach our home land Iraq dosen't.
razz