America was "conned" into this war!

[Gimpy]

The Chicken Hawk Factor

By Jim Lobe, AP Wire Services


"There's more combat experience on the 7th floor of the State Department than in the entire Office of the Secretary of Defense," quipped the high-ranking State Department official to a room filled with senior military officers last month. The statement "generated riotous applause," according to an eyewitness quoted in the Nelson Report, a private newsletter subscribed to by foreign-policy heavyweights and embassies in Washington.


The incident revealed the growing importance of the "Chicken Hawk" factor in the increasingly rancorous debate over the Bush administration's war on Iraq and beyond. At the moment, the military brass is leading the opposition. It includes both the folks who will have to fight this war and those who have retired from the service. The list of former generals includes Secretary of State and former Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell and his deputy, U.S. Naval Academy grad and Vietnam veteran Richard Armitage; as well as veterans of the Gulf War, including most famously Bush Sr.'s national security adviser, ret. Gen. Brent Scowcroft; the Gulf War commander, ret. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf; and his logistics chief and later successor at Central Command, ret. Gen. Anthony Zinni.


"It is interesting to me that many of those who want to rush this country into war and think it would be so quick and easy don't know anything about war," said Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), one of the most outspoken skeptics of the war with Baghdad. "They come at it from an intellectual perspective versus having sat in jungles or foxholes and watched their friends get their heads blown off," the Vietnam veteran added. Hagel is not alone. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), a highly decorated fellow Vietnam veteran who turned against the war, is also openly skeptical.


At the moment, the vast majority of the men pushing for war in Washington are what The New Hampshire Gazette defines as "Chicken Hawks": "public persons ? generally male ? who (1) tend to advocate military solutions to political problems, and who have personally (2) declined to take advantage of significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime."


That "significant opportunity" for most of Bush's war party faced was, of course, the Vietnam War. Dubya famously avoided the draft by getting a posting with the Texas National Guard, the kind of dodge that Powell referred to in his memoirs as being reserved for "the sons of the powerful." Cheney, however, avoided the uniform altogether, mumbling to one reporter that he "had other priorities in the Sixties than military service." Rumsfeld, the other leading Cabinet hawk, flew jets for the Navy between the Korean and Vietnam wars but never saw combat.


In fact, the only cabinet member with combat experience is Powell.


The sub-cabinet level also suffers from a distinct deficit in war-time experience. Cheney's hawkish and powerful chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, scooted through the sixties at Yale University and Columbia Law School, while Rumsfeld's top deputies, Paul Wolfowitz and Peter Rodman, completed graduate degrees before entering the national-security bureaucracy. The number three at the Pentagon, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith, the administration's most avid champion of the Iraq war and its staunchest supporter of Israel's right-wing government, turned 18 only after the draft ended and, like Libby, went to law school.


Other major administration hawks, such as Elliott Abrams ? of Iran-Contra fame and now a member of the National Security Council in charge of democratizing the Middle East ? and Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Strategy John Bolton also avoided military service during the height of the Vietnam War, reportedly for medical reasons. They, too, were law school-bound.


As for the ''axis of incitement'' ? those beating the war drums loudest outside the administration ? members of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), the Center for Security Policy (CSP), and the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) also appear to have done what they could to avoid the uniform during the Vietnam War. The chairman of Rumfeld's Defense Policy Board (DPB) and one of the most visible advocates of military action to oust Saddam, Richard Perle, spent Vietnam at the University of Chicago (along with Wolfowitz) before joining the staff of Sen. Henry "Scoop" Jackson, who at the time was among the last remaining Democrats to support the Vietnam war.


"Maybe Mr. Perle would like to be in the first wave of those who go into Baghdad," Hagel quipped recently, earning him an outraged rebuke by the editors at the Wall Street Journal who called the crack "particularly shabby." Another highly visible super-hawk and Perle prot?g?, CSP founder-director Frank Gaffney, also avoided military service during Vietnam.


Here's a startling fact: only four of the 32 prominent right-wingers who authored the now-famous Sept. 20 PNAC letter to Bush urging him to extend the war on terrorism to Iraq ? as well as Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority ? have any military experience. And three of those four were in the reserves like Bush. Among the signatories who have become fixtures on TV talk shows and op-ed pages arguing why the U.S. must invade Iraq, stand by Sharon, or "remake the face of the Arab world" are: Weekly Standard editor William Kristol, his sidekick Robert Kagan, the Canadian-bred columnist Charles Krauthammer, Christian Right leader Gary Bauer, moralist William Bennett, former Commentary editor Norman Podhoretz, former New Republic editor Martin Peretz, and former UN ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick, alongwith Perle and Gaffney.


Other armchair hawks include Michael Ledeen ? yet another omnipresent Iran-contra alum who says that the word "stability" gives him the "heebie-jeebies" ? who spent Vietnam curled up comfortably at a university library carrel reading Machiavelli. Rumsfeld intimate and DPB member Kenneth Adelman, who claims that a military campaign against Baghdad would be a "cakewalk," also avoided service.


This glaring disparity between experience and rhetoric has not been lost on the military brass. "It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war see it another," noted Zinni, who as chief of the U.S. Central Command in the late 1990s was responsible for U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf region. The main concern of ex-generals like Zinni and Schwarzkopf is that an invasion will burden the military with an impossible and perhaps interminable political task. "Do we really want to occupy Iraq for the next 30 years?" asked former Navy Secretary and Vietnam veteran James Webb in a Washington Post column last week.


But the Chicken Hawks have not been shy about counterattacking Zinni and Co., arguing, like Clemenceau, that "war is too important to be left to the generals." The New Republic editor Peter Beinert claimed in a recent column.

*****************************


I think I'll put my "cards" with U.S. Naval Academy grad and Vietnam veteran Richard Armitage; as well as veterans of the Gulf War, including Bush Sr.'s national security adviser, ret. Gen. Brent Scowcroft; the Gulf War commander, ret. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf; and his logistics chief and later successor at Central Command, ret. Gen. Anthony Zinni.

[MORTARDUDE]

{...}

Here's a startling fact: only four of the 32 prominent right-wingers who authored the now-famous Sept. 20 PNAC letter to Bush urging him to extend the war on terrorism to Iraq ? as well as Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority ? have any military experience.

{..}

Pretty damn f*cking sorry when morons like this put our sons and daughters in harm's way, with no WMDs, without the proper equipment, with NO exit strategy, and with little regard for their pay and benefits...

Oh well, on to the next oil-rich country to pillage and loot !!!!

Larry

P.S.: I am damned proud of my tin-foil hat, don't you know !!

[SuperScout]

Mass murders have been going on for a long time, correct, and the UN said stop stop stop for about 14 mandates and mass murders kept happening so why bring up the President's name and do you really think, I mean do you really think that if the President said stop stop stop that Saddam really would have stopped stopped stopped? And please think think think, the GOP is a political party, welcoming all who can at least fog a mirror, but that medical condition serves as a deselector for those proudly wearing tight-fitting tinfoil helmets. You're in good company. Not the right company, but good company.

And golly gee, I didn't know that I was in such fabulous company!
You see, I too joined the Texas National Guard, so that must make me one of the "sons of the powerful." All the more reason to wish that my Pappy was still alive, so he could enjoy this canard as well! And oh so inconvenient, that Rumsfeld didn't get to see combat! Those events of history that precluded him friom firing a shot were probably controlled by all of us powerful people, a historical event designed just to get liberals' panties wadded up their cracks. If they weren't so pitiable, they'd be pathetic!

[blues clues]

My helmet dosen't fit to tight thank you but I'm just find with the company I'm in tinfoil and medal buttons and all.you should try it sometimes mite clear your head and let out some of that hot air that you are full of. got to go now I've got to get in my tinfoil tent to stop all these radio waves.
razz

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by MORTARDUDE {...}

Pretty damn f*cking sorry when morons like this put our sons and daughters in harm's way, with no WMDs, without the proper equipment, with NO exit strategy, and with little regard for their pay and benefits...

Oh well, on to the next oil-rich country to pillage and loot !!!!

Larry

P.S.: I am damned proud of my tin-foil hat, don't you know !!

******************

Yes........it IS pretty damn f**king sorry!

And, damned if I ain't JUST as proud as you and my friend RAZZ are of my tin-foil "hat"!

[SuperScout]

Let's see, the war most of us fought in was CinC'ed by a phoney-baloney who was presented (didn't earn it, was presented) the Silver Star, for riding in a B-25 that didn't even complete its mission. Ain't it amazing that nobody else onboard was given any award for that same flight. Let's see, how many campaign stars are on Robert McNamara's resume? And let's not forget about ol' William Cohen, Sec. of DoD under Clinton - what an outstanding war record he brought to the table, and the marvelous record of mighty military achievements as evidenced in Haiti, Somalia, and Rwanda. Wasn't McNamara that genius that tried to use a "pencil-whipping" process to help us win the war in Vietnam? Or are you mental midgets thinking that every cabinet should be staffed by nothing but Airborne, Ranger, CIB veterans? It would be nice, but it ain't reality, something that seems to evade you on a continuing and frequent basis.

And are you ready for me to email you several recipes for crow, once the evidence of WMD is found in sufficent quantity to convince even you tinhat tinhorns? And apparently the news didn't get to certain parts of the nation, as some are still befuddled, a condition caused by too tight tinfoil helmets, about the exit strategy for Iraq. Or is it that the exit strategy as presented does not conform with your ideas? Like we enjoy telling the whiners in Florida about 2000, get over it!

And are you tinhat tinkerbelles enjoying those reduced gasoline prices for all that oil we stole from Iraq, or did those Wascally Wepublicans just import it here to Texas? Oh, that's right, I forgot about all that swamp gas in Florida, and how it must be a marvelous substitute for propane, butane, ethanol and methane. That must explain the H2S odor so prevalent there.

BTW, which one of the prancing pretenders you geniuses planning on voting for Dean, Clark, Edwards, Kuchinici or whatever or hoping that Algore comes back?

[Seascamp]

Conned is the right expression and I?ll go with that. But my view of who is conning whom is in discord and polar opposite from the cited author. This kill Bush at any cost obsession from the left will yield a significant and horrid cost and I for one will not place my family at risk for the sake of political hatred and Liberal posturing/levering. Sure, roll on, knock yourself out, bring forth any contrived digits and stats ya care to or any be-speckled or be-stared talking head that wants to whore themselves for a few pieces of silver. Fact is, that isn?t going to change reality one iota and if anything, puts us all at greater risk.

No one is going to tell me about the inherent risks coming out of the Middle East or talk me out of those things I have seen, witnessed and lived, and I mean no one. And I might add I have 36 years of North Africa-Middle East experience on the plate and am not exactly a retard in terms of observation and drawing conclusions. So as I see it, as the darling of the Liberals, Howard Dean, suggests such idiotic-shit things as fair play for Osama bin Laden and equal treatment for known global terrorists and murderers/butchers, then it becomes very clear to me that the bet on the table is millions of American lives and that appears to be OK so long as Bush is skinned and his carcass is kicked in the binjo ditch. Big reality: US security will not be found in Saturday morning remedial studies of US foreign policy, especially if the student learns nothing and just presses forth with dangerous verbal dysentery. That folks is where the con job is these days and a very dangerous one at that.

I assert that the only difference between what has gone on for the last 1400 years and now is mobility, communication ability and the availability of mass murder weaponry. Beyond that, it?s business as usual except that the hydra has externalized and is spreading like a virulent cancer on a global scale.
And no, I didn?t have Reds under my bed during the VN War and there aren?t terrorists hiding out in my shrubbery these days, forget that notion. I just see a country that places political hatred and skullduggery at a higher value than the lives of our citizens, that?s all. And that is exactly why I had and have a lot of trepidation about the Iraq invasion and current occupation. As a country we can?t even so much as agree on the threat, let alone a remedy and the now stakes are beyond calculation while in the mean time the rhetoric and stupid skullduggery just keep getting more dangerous by the moment.

Scamp

[Gimpy]

Ineffective counterattacks!

Can't you folks see what the "professionals" are saying about this crap and realiize that they just MAY know what in the hell they're talking about??

Evidently not.

The folks mentioned below seem to me to be a "bit" more qualified and able to defend THEIR 'position(s)" than they so-called "hawks" around here.......or anywhere for that matter!

U.S. Naval Academy grad and Vietnam veteran Richard Armitage; veterans of the Gulf War, including most famously Bush Sr.'s national security adviser, ret. Gen. Brent Scowcroft; the Gulf War commander, ret. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf; and his logistics chief and later successor at Central Command, ret. Gen. Anthony Zinni.

This glaring disparity between experience and rhetoric has not been lost on the military brass. "It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war see it another," noted Zinni, who as chief of the U.S. Central Command in the late 1990s was responsible for U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf region. The main concern of ex-generals like Zinni and Schwarzkopf is that an invasion will burden the military with an impossible and perhaps interminable political task. "Do we really want to occupy Iraq for the next 30 years?" asked former Navy Secretary and Vietnam veteran James Webb in a Washington Post column last week.


But the Chicken Hawks have not been shy about counterattacking Zinni and Co., arguing, like Clemenceau, that "war is too important to be left to the generals."

Looks like we got more "counterattackers" that think the same way, huh??

Well, I'l STILL go with "Stormin Norman" and General Zinni thank you very much!

[Sgt_Tropo]

The war with Iraq was NOT a con-job, just simply long overdue. everyone agrees that Saddam was murdering his people by the hundreds and thousands for many years. The WMD used was Saddam's word to his henchmen. Yes, we know Saddam had SCUD missles and yes, even the UN inspectors found evidence of developed warheads for carrying various nerve agents. Our men HAVE found several sites where these agents were being developed. I guess we're just lucky that these agents weren't deployed and used against us. Nuclear weapons ? No, we haven't found any - luckily ! If Saddam had posessed these he most assuredly would have used them.
We all know what happened in Rwanda, with an estimated 3 million killed. Why didn't we go in there ? Because Clinton, Reagan and the elder Bush were convinced that the UN would act. Of course, this would have been the first time in history for such to happen, but we, the USA, held back, waiting and waiting for the "mighty UN" to act and save the people of Rwanda and other countries. Unfortunately, the UN never even reached a concensus on the simple matter of censoring these countries, let alone acting to protect their citizens.
President George W. Bush also tried to play" within the guidelines of the UN, but to no avail. The mighty UN was too busy posturing and making a cool 2.8 Billion dollars off of the "Oil-for-Food" program they pushed off on the world, along with France's help. BTW - France pocketed an estimated $6 Billion dollars on this, according to written documents found in Iraq just within the last couple of months. Where did this get reported to the public ? On the back pages of only a few of the "major" newspapers, like the Wall Street Journal. Why not on the front pages ? Because the UN was whinning about how badly the US has been treating them. Hence, the majority of the liberal press papers simply refused to print the story.

We went to war to stop a mad-man and we have succeeded. Even the one-time supporters of Saddam are now calling on the rebel forces to lay down their arms and co-operate in the rebuilding of Iraq. In the last week, there has been a significant reduction in the number of attacks on coalition forces in Iraq. Hopefully, the next few weeks will see an even more significant response to those pleas.

"There's more combat experience on the 7th floor of the State Department than in the entire Office of the Secretary of Defense," quipped the high-ranking State Department official to a room filled with senior military officers last month.

Isn't this an interesting statement !? In the last 30 years, the vast majority of the men holding the Secratary of Defense position have had little or no military combat experience. This was by design, so that the military would not have or be perceived as having absolute sway with the President or the Congress.

What I find really amazing is the fact that virtually all of the whinning and complaining about the Iraqi war is coming from people who have not been active participants, either it its planning or its execution.
Wesley Clark couldn't handle the assignment in Bosnia, and none of the other Democratic contenders have a clue as to how the war is going, being run, or the results, other than what they read in the daily liberal press.
The only ones being "conned" are those who buy into the concept of, "We should have left Saddam alone." syndrone.

[MORTARDUDE]

Funny you mention the last 30 years...we have had a lot of sh*tty military experiences during that time...

Vietnam ( war fought backwards...a total fu*kup )
Mayaguez
The Cambodian "incursion" ( 2 months and things back as they were )
Laotian "incursion" ( when left back as were )
defeat in Vietnam
Lebanon
Desert Storm ( job not finished )
Somalia




Victories ?

Haiti
Grenada
Panama

Ongoing..

Iraq
Afghanistan

The folks doing the killing and dying on the ground are the only ones that know what the f*ck is going on, and usually the only ones who really care. Not some jerk in an office 12,000 miles away.

Larry