Master Chief Petty officer

[covan]

39,

"That is a video from the Forestall" Yes, it was. Where else would the video come from? Another ship? A satellite? A phone cam? Please provide your evidence the film has been altered.

Why would the fire and explosions happen on the port side first. You can see a portion of the starboard side and there is no fire before the first sign of fire or explosion. I hope the individual provided his insight to the Department of the Navy. To not have done so would be a dereliction of his duty.

Did you ever consider that every document in existence is not on the Internet. Sorry that your research skills and limitations are bound to the Internet.

Showing any corroboration for what? I'm sure it was covered in 7500 pages. Let us know what you find.

I would suggest you contact the Department of the Navy or NARA. Or maybe pay a visit to you local library.


Not my drawing, 39. I had nothing to do with it. It came from the investigation.

Just because you have a jag on for McCain doesn't mean you have to spread unsubstantiated stories from some anonymous individual.

If you want my bonefides PM me anytime. I could say on this site that I was the Chief of Staff or I could have talked to you and said I was a Master Chief in the Navy. Could care less what you think of me.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by 39mto39g


..."I could care less about Johnny. Or if the boat had sunk, The families need to know what happened, Not just some story you say came from some place.
..."Im really done with this, I don't care what happened to the people on the boat or John or who did what, means nothing to me. Ron

"

Fairly sad commentary on what happen to those Shipmates and a fine Fighting Ship.

Most of the footage that is commonly seen was filmed by a Camera on the O-8 Level, it sits just below Primary Flight Control (The Tower) This camera and the man behind it are subjected to the heat (,weather) and noise from the flight deck with out any protection.
I'm sure in the confusion and possible danger to his own life, this camera man did the best damed job he could.
The camera wasn't pointed aft because it is pointed on the catapults launching the planes, like it was meant to be.
The other camera is embedded in the flight deck, it's purpose is to film incoming planes on final approach and landing. It's not movable, it's lens is fixed except for focus.
Yes, the film is of poor quality, this could be due to a number of factors. I'm sure the intense heat played a role. PMS wasn't in place as we know it today. (It became very important after the fire and the book was re-written on PMS.) Shock waves from the bombs going off violently shook the flight deck, this shaking may have been amplified on a piece of equipment that requires it be kept still in order to get a good picture. How many tines was this film copied, and since the original was poor you can't expect subsequent copies to be better!
A cover up? Neither McCain was cut from the cloth of a lier, these are men of integrity and truth.
If McCain fired his Zuni(s) I'm sure it was to jettison them, to get this miserable excuse of a weapon away from the source of fire.
The families know what happened, it was one huge accident after accident after accident. Old WW2 ammunition that couldn't stand up to the heat on the flight deck. The vulnerable Zuni rocket that wasn't heat, or electric shock proof. Crew members who weren't trained in fire fighting or the proper methods of fire fighting. (The Navy re-wote the book on fire fighting, and insured that every crew member has fire fighting instructions and training!)

John McCain goes down in my book as one hell of a man. The effort to save his own life is amazing to watch. The time he served as a POW, refusing to use his father's influence to either gain better treatment or release. Having read "Sailors to the End" and both of McCain's books, I have a better understanding of the man and his politics.

[covan]

SH62,

Thanks for sharing the insight. Did not know those facts about the cameras.

John McCain is one hell of a man. The men of the Forrestal did not deserve to die or be injured in such a tragedy.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by 39mto39g "... And your OPINION on what camera was were and what happened to the focus is just that, Your opinion. ...Deck level film is more for night operations, (or blurry cover up) ."

No, I know where the camera's are located. I spent some time on a flight deck in the three and half years I was stationed on a Aircraft Carrier. I knew the IC (Interior Communications) men in flight deck lighting who took care of the embedded deck camera. The VLA (Visual Landing Aids) crew who took care of the flight deck camera under the tower. The Deck Level film is for both day and night time operations. The Squadrons review these films to grade the pilots approaches and landings. Along with the audio from the Landing Signal Officers (LSO's). The "deck level" camera is subjected to all kinds of abuse. Burned fuel, unburned fuel, the over all grime of the deck, planes taxing and landing on it, salt water intrusion... It's a wonder it worked at all! Yes, this lens cover was cleaned from time to time, when some one could get out on deck to do it, or when there was a complaint about the picture.
Yes, it's speculation on my part why the pictures are blurry. But this doesn't discount the knowledge I have of these systems and some of the causes of the poor picture(s).

You don't have to morn the deaths of anyone. And far be it for me to give you permission one way or the other. What I don't understand is the emphasis you put on having the families know what happened. If it not for the deaths of these men (in the case of the Forrestal) what difference does it make? Will the families knowing bring these men back or change the fact that there was a fire? Are we seeking to punish someone for what might be a cover up?

To the 134 Shipmates who lost their lives on July 29, 1967, may you find eternal peace on your final cruise.
To Tommy Foley, Danny Marshall, and the Fischer Brothers who lost their lives on 9-11, may heaven rest easy knowing the likes of you are on watch!
Some of us will never forget the sacrifices of those who have gone before us or the bravery of others to do what had to be done.

[SparrowHawk62]

"Flight deck operation film that I have seen come from several locations, Like one level up to get a good view, where is that view?
Deck level film is more for night operations, (or blurry cover up) ."

You may very well have seen Flight Deck Operation Film that came from several locations. However the official film is from the camera located under the Tower. Forrestal's was located on the O-8 level, some four decks above the flight deck. There is no observation area on the Forrestal's O-5 level which is one deck above the flight deck. The flight deck being the O-4 Level. So I am confused as to your statement: "Where is the film from one deck up, where is footage before the accident,..."
There are no cameras on the flight deck, they are actually IN the flight deck. Unless there was or could be a PH (photographers mate) taking photos.
What footage there would be before the accident or incident (depended on your view point) would be of the forward or waist catapults that were launching aircraft. The camera is not filming unless flight operations are in progress, during the start up of aircraft the camera may not even be manned.
"And, You said "I was stationed on a Aircraft Carrier" what was your job? "I spent some time on a flight deck " That could mean getting on and off the boat. And unless you have first hand knowledge of the flight operation cameras of the Forestall, then your experience on a different Carrier is just an opinion when it comes to the Forestall."
I had a few jobs on the Carrier. I was in Air Administration, pushed papers while in port. I was a Master at Arms, worked with the ship's police force, NIS, and the ships drug intervention dog. But my Rated Job, the Job I was trained for was as an ABH-2, Aviation Bosun Mate-Handler. We're the guys who chock and chain, move the birds either with tow tractors or direct the Pilot when the plane is running on it's own power. A majority of my time was spent in Primary Flight Control, Pri-Fly or as many called it the "Tower". I am very well versed in Air Craft Operations on an Air Craft Carrier. I had to know various communications systems, how to call for arresting gear settings, set the Lens or the "Ball", how to operate the flight deck fire fighting and wash down system, the flight deck lighting controls, keep the NATOPS (Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization)
up to date on every aircraft that could land on a carrier, let helo's land and take off in the event of the Air or Mini Boss not being in the tower. The tower crew also kept written records of aircraft launches and recoveries. Oh, and I have a lot of paperwork with USN, OFFICIAL RECORD, stamped all over it to say I've done those things.
We normally didn't get off the boat via the flight deck, there were brows set up from the hanger bay via an aircraft elevator (the zero's used the Quarter Deck) or fan tail (Mainly in Liberty Ports) for us to depart from, or return to the ship. I did however fly off the ship on my last day with her, to Rosie Rhodes P.R. Only time I left the ship via air and didn't return to her.
Camera systems were standardized, so I would argue there isn't much difference between the FID's and INDY's systems.

Here's some light reading for anyone wishing to catch up...
REFERENCES.

NAVSEAINST 4790.8/OPNAVINST 4790.4 - Ship's Maintenance and Material Management (3-M) Manual

OPNAVINST 4790.15 - Aircraft Launch and Recovery Equipment Maintenance Program (ALREMP)

COMNAVAIRLANTINST 4790.40/COMNAVAIRPACINST 4790.39 - Aircraft Launch and Recovery Equipment Maintenance Program (ALREMP) Management Teams

OPNAVINST 3120.28 - Certification of the Aviation Capability of Naval Ships Operating Aircraft

COMLANTFLTINST 3500.18 - Certification and Readiness of Aviation Facilities in Naval Ships Operating Aircraft

(NAVAIRINST 3120.1 - Lead Systems Command Procedures and Responsibilities for Certification of Aviation Facilities and Equipment in Naval Ships Operating Aircraft

Oh, as of yet I have not found anything in the way of "Offical Reports" on the web. Guess you'd have to FOIA them from either the Navy or DOD.

[covan]

39,

And your proof that these are official US Navy videos and not those taken by some gob is . . .?

[SparrowHawk62]

Ron, that last film/video is taken from at least the O-9 level, as Pri -Fly can be seen in the final few frames. That's five levels up from the flight deck! Other two could be from on top of the Bridge, that would be the O-10 Level, six decks above the Flight Deck.
This is amateur footage!!!
Show me some OFFICAL NAVY STUFF!!

So what job did you do in your time in the Army? Only fair to ask since you questioned me about my service time.

[covan]

39,

Amateur vs. official film was not the question. The question was, as SH, has pointed out at what level official videos are taken. You stated that these were "one level up flight operations" and SH, who has experience on carriers says they were much higher.

During an investigation film from any source in invaluable. I think, too, you have to take into consideration 40 years of technological advances in equipment.

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by covan 39,

Amateur vs. official film was not the question. The question was, as SH, has pointed out at what level official videos are taken. You stated that these were "one level up flight operations" and SH, who has experience on carriers says they were much higher.

During an investigation film from any source in invaluable. I think, too, you have to take into consideration 40 years of technological advances in equipment.

Thank you Covan.
Your statement about there being years of technological advances is an excellent point!
There were no F-14 or F/A-18's on the Forrestal!

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by 39mto39g You guys are something else. You win. I care even less now then before.
Ron

Now come on! If you think there should be a Congressional Hearing then start a petition! I'll sign my name to it.

One reason there may be no Official Record is because this was an embarrassment to the Navy. The FID was off the Coast of Viet Nam, one of America's finest Aircraft Carrier, Battle Ready. What happened? Due to some nit-wit wanting to save a buck, the Navy was forced to use WW-2 Bombs! These things were unstable at best and never should have been transported, let alone stored on a carrier and when used subjected to intense heat. The Fire then showed the world that the Navy was not trained to combat huge fires on it's Aircraft Carriers. How much of this damage was caused by the Viet Cong; none, zero, zilch, nada! Yet one of the greatest defense platforms was taken out of action, at a cost of millions. Yeah, those WW-2 Bombs sure save money, alright!
Another reason could be that the incident was written off as a catastrophic ACCIDENT.
If there was any question of McCain being negligent and firing a Zuni Rocket, there would have been a hearing shortly after the accident. All Pilot mishaps are investigated, to what level depends on what is found through the investigation.
IE: The USS Liberty attack. (Close to the same time frame.)
Why weren't McCain's actions, questioned, and now some forty years later they are? By whom?

I don't know, and I don't have the answers. All I know is I repeatedly saw "Trial By Fire" while I was in the Navy. It would put the fear of fire into anyone who was going to be stationed on a ship! Am I defending the Navy or our Aircraft Carriers, maybe.
Am I defending John McCain, no, but I don't think he did anything wrong in this case.