Are these Federal Documents?

[exlrrp]

Are these federal documents?
http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardmay4.pdf
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/bushang.html
The rest can be found at : http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...09bushdocs.pdf and I will discuss these and their relevance later?they?re real important.

Curiously, these documents have never been proven or disproven in any official investigation. CBS had its own internal investigation but they never solved the most important question: are these papers real or not. (For verification of this see: http://www.onlinejournal.com/bush/01...05conover.html ??the bottom line is that they could reach not any ?definitive conclusion as to whether the Killian documents are authentic . . . it may never be possible for anyone to authenticate or discredit the documents??)
This is extremely curious, because, if these are forged, they libel George Bush in the extreme, showing that his service was not honorable as he has tried to characterize it all his life. If he was not ordered to take his physical or was not suspended by Col Killian, then these documents were forged out of thin air?what could be easier to disprove than forged papers about an event that never happened? They also libel other USAF officers (Staudt, Hodges, Killian and Harris) by implying that they were involved in a conspiracy to alter Bush?s records (??I will backdate but not rate??)
America needs to know if these are real or not. And as of this date (8/11/05) George W Bush has never denied that they are real, nor has any of his staff. Is that a surprise?
Its surprising to me?if you were confronted by papers that you knew?or suspected?to be false, papers that your commander had been allegedly keeping in a secret file about you, what would you do? I?m real sure that the normal reaction for anybody reading this would be to call the appropriate authorities and demand an investigation and prosecution of the forgers. This George Bush, nor any Republican has ever done! Why not? Who has more resources than the President of the United States?. Yet Bush has never expressed any interst to know who created these, if there was more or where they really came from (Lucy Ramirez is an obvious fiction).
And the obvious fact is that George Bush must have known from the very beginning whether these were false or not. How could he not? Theyre about him! How could he not know?Either the events haoppened and the papers are real or they didn't and theyre false!! There's also the possiblity that the events happened but the papers are false--in ANY case who would know better than George Bush--these things either happoned or didn't happen--and he knows it but declines to tell us about it. Theyre about events that he was intimately involved in. How could someone forge documents about Bush about events that never happened and expect that he wouldn?t have them investigated? If these are forged, then someone must have had the supreme confidence that he could forge documents that would confound all the investigative agencies of the federal government?he wouldn?t know that Bush would never have them investigated.
Or would he?

These documents have been declared ?private documents? by CBS and the Bush Administration?is that their reason for not investigating them? Theyre still libelous if forged. Why wouldn?t they investigate them?
Take a look at the first document cited, the alleged order to take his physical?
Is this a federal document or not? And if its a federal document, why is the BUsh Administration calling them private documents and not investigating them?
It sure is a federal document: It?s a copy, real or not, of a written direct order for George Bush to take his physical. It has letterhead of a USAF unit (the 111th FIS), official content and is signed full signature by the commander of the 111th in performance of his duty as commander. Its a copy of a USAF order and if forged, or even suspected to be forged, then the USAF should have investigated it and prosecuted any wrongdoing.
Its either real or a blatant forgery, there?s no other choice. If this is forged, someone typed the letterhead of a federal USAF unit on a piece of paper, falsified information about a USAF officer (now President!) and then forged the signature of the 111th FIS commander on it.
This is s serious federal crime!! An outrageous federal crime!! If this is forged a serious federal crime has been committed: forgery of federal documents. And the same goes for any of the other documents: if theyre forged, it?s a serious federal crime!
This is why its important to establish right away whether these are federal documents or not: If these are forged federal documents then why hasn?t the federal government?specifically the USAF?investigated these and prosecuted the forgers? They KNOW where these came from: Bill Burkett. Why hasn?t Burkett been placed under oath and questioned where he got these if theyre forged?
Someone else who knows right now if these are forged or not is the USAF, they are copies, forged or not, of USAF documents. Why are they shirking their duty to investigate these papers and prosecute any wrong doing? These documents purport to be USAF orders and communications. Who else should investigate these besides USAF IG and OSI (Office of Special Investigations) It is their job to maintain the integrity of USAF documents?which they noticeably avoided. Bush was one of their officers! Aren?t they going to disprove a forged order that libels him and several other USAF officers?
Think the USAF doesn?t believe that these are federal documents? How can that be so? They purport to be USAF documents, its their only significance. Its not like crib notes at a Yale exam, these are federal documents, forged or not and the federal government is required to maintain the integreity of its documents. Up until now, anyway.

So I?m going to start this discussion at this point.
Should the documents above be considered as federal documents? Should the US government investigate them and prosecute any wrong doing? (My answer: Yes and Yes)

[Gimpy]

also................'Yes' and 'Yes'!

[exlrrp]

Gimpy, if what we say is true--that these are federal documents, and theyre alleged to be forged by the Party in charge of the government then we got a real problem here
We got a federal government that is refusing to investigate forged federal documents and prosecute any wrongdoing. What is up with that??
These documents purport to be USAF documents, official orders to G Bush concerning his military service.
The right wingers were all over this to prove it on the intenet but after the election it all dies out!!
Hey waitamminnnit!! If these are federal documents, and theyre alleged to be forged by the Republicans, who are in complete control of the federal government and all its investigative agencies, then why are they shirking their duty to investigate them and prosecute any wrongdoing?? I mean forgeing federal documents is a serious federal crime!! I?m onl;y suggesting the legal, moral thing to do!!
If these papers are forged, then George Bush and several other USAF officers have been libeled! There?s also the issue of forged federal documents?isn?t that a crime?? If I?d knowed they?d take such a liberal view of forging letterhead, official content and the commanders signature, I?d have had a pass every night, written in crayon!
Gimp, the way they got around the federal investigation of these papers is to call them ?private papers? of Col Killian like he was writing orders to G Bush to himself. Seems ridiculous.
What also seems ridiculous is their notion that these papers can?t be verified easily. They are?or purport to be?USAF documents concerning specific events. Did these events happen? There?s lots of evidence to prove they did.
Look at the order to take his physical. Now Look at this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in646621.shtml
The 2d to bottom line: ??The White House did not answer whether Bush disobeyed a direct order to take the exam. ..? That tell you about placement of bad news in this administration?
Whattaya think, Gimp? Think Dear Leader didn?t know or couldn?t remember if he was ordered to take his physical or not?? Why didn?t they just answer that with a simple no if that was what it was? The answer was that they couldn?t?or they would have.
Well that takes a whole fresh look at things, doesn?t it? George Bush refused to answer whether he?d been ordered to take his physical or not. And they buried this information. What do you think that means?
And what do you think about the fact that neither G Bush or his aides have ever denied that they were real? They stood above the fray, letting their internet MauMaus and Peasants With Pitchforks do all their fighting for them, like they usually do, they only returned the papers to the media ?uncommented on.?
?Uncommented On?? If you thought someone was circulating forged federal papers about YOU, supposedly kept in a secret file, what would you do? I?d bet $$ to dogturds you?d be down the Pentagon and the FBI with your lawyer so fast it?d make your head spin, gat an injunction and then demand an investigation and prosecution of the criminals.
But George Bush only said that he ?didn?t remember seeing the papers before? That sure is not a denial
The most amazing thing is that they pretend like Bush doesn?t know if they are real or not. He HAS to?theyre about him! Who else would know the intimate details of his own career better than Bush? He WAS suspended by his CO jerry Killian and the orders for that are missing from his records as his mandatory acknowledgement of them. http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/grounded.gif ??Verbal orders of the commander on 1 August 72 suspending 1st Lt George Bush?.are confirmed?? This means that Bush?s commander, Col Killian, verbally ordered that Bush be suspended on August 1st, 1972. Its unequivocal! Bush and Killian were face to face on August 1st discussing his suspension. Killian HAD to write a memo about this and forward it up the chain of command?its what these 2 confirmation documents are confirming!! There is no original Killian order for Bush?s suspension in his files?where is it and what does it say? And why is it not in Bush?s files?? That?s one of the most important questions here?it HAD to be there?but was removed.
Look at: http://www.glcq.com/regs/35-13_1971.pdf AFM 35-13 para 2-10: ??Particular care must be taken to insure that the individual receives flying status orders on or before the effective date.? Para 2-10b: ?CBPOSA will insure that the unit personnel record copy of an aeronautical order which?.imposes or rescinds a suspension?will be acknowledged by the person concerned, to indicate time and receipt of orders?.?
So according to this, Hodges order I give here is a confirmation order by the date?it?s a month after the event happened and para 2-10 says they must be done ?on or before the effective date??
Why do you think the conservatives deny these regs even exist?? (see: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213508/posts Point #50)
The regs cited prove that Killian HAD to suspend him on August 1st, HAD to have him sign for receipt and then forwarded his actions up the chain of command, as the 2 confirmation documents prove DID happen!
So where is Killian?s suspension order and where is Bush?s confirmation that he received it?? This HAD to be in Bush?s files but is suspiciously missing.
Sorta makes you want to take a whole new look at this one: http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/bushang.html doesn?t it?
Why didn?t Bush just come right out and give a clear coherent account of this incident that DID happen instead of letting his ?surrogates? do all the work for him?
C?mon George?tell us what the REAL suspension order written by Killian said, if its innocent as is claimed. We know it HAD to be written!

I think its really very suspicious that the man most libeled by these papers if theyre false, who is also the most powerful man in the world with complete control of all the federal investigative agencies doesn?t want to see where they really came from (Lucy Ramirez is an obvious fiction) who created them and if there are any more. Its really strange in that they know where they came from?Bill Burkett, but to the best of my knowledge, Burkett has ever been interviewed by anyone official concerning these documents that the Republicans allege are forged
Times awasting!! These ?forgers? are getting away with the forgery crime of the century!!Heck they might have got to Mexico by now! Better start investigating this stuff, Republicans, and prosecuting any wrongdoing?There?s a lot, just on the face of it.

I did?nt know this would get dumped into Political Debate, I thought it was better in Conspiracy Theories but I see they done away with it. There?s a lot more to say about this and I?ll be back to give you more
Stay good, Gimp
James

PS Watch, Gimp, they?ll say theyre not investigating these papers to save the taxpayers money ROTFLMAO

[exlrrp]

I meant to post this with the above
Its Hodges confirmation of Kiliians suspension orders of 8/1/72. Its not the original suspension because the dates over a month later and regs cited rquired Killian to have them ready for Bush on or before the effective date. (AFM35-13 para2-10)
It also doesn't say anything about "verbal orders" like the 9/22/72 one does
It can't be the original suspension orders, it gives no reason for the suspension. There's no legitimate reason given for Bush's suspension in any of his documents.
So we know that Killian did suspend Bush on Aug 1st, 1972--where's the order and what does it say? and where is Bush's acknowledgment that was required? (AFM35-13 para 2-10b)
If this is false, why didn't Bush just show us the real one? Or just tell us what it said?
Stay good, Gimp
James

[exlrrp]

An intersting part of this story is that it goes forwards, backwards and sideways and then goes off on weird angles after that.
Lets summarize the points made so far.
from:
http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardmay4.pdf
http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

A) These are federal documents, specifically purporting to be copies of US Air Force orders and communications. They have letterhead of a USAF unit (TXANG: 111th FIS), they purport to be official USAF business (orders and communications) and theyre signed by the commander of the USAF unit in performance of his duty as commander.
B) Therefore, if these are in any way alleged to be false, its the duty of the USAF IG and Office of Special Investigations to investigate and prosecute the forgers according to their own websites. As of ths date, almost a year later , they have had no investigation nor even talked about it. And no Repuiblican has even suggested it. This despite the fact that this must be the most highly publicized case of forged USAF documents ever.
C) George Bush knew as soon as he looked at these if they were real or not. George Bush saw his own suspension order: his CO had them ready for him to sign on Aig 1, 1972, the day he suspended Bush according to the document posted above and: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/grounded.gif Its impossible to believe that Bush didn't see his own suspension orders and woldn't know a fake one if he saw it.
D) Neither George Bush or his aides have ever denied that these were real. Bush, according to Bartlett, only said Mr. Bartlett said he had showed the documents ? broadcast last week by CBS News and questioned by many analysts ? to Mr. Bush "and he did not remember them." (according to: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3012-3759r.htm ""Even if you take the documents at face value and said that they were authentic, you can tell by one of the memos where it said that he talked to Bush about his flight exam. We obviously interpret that as he was working with his commanders on the very issue as to whether he needed to take it or not. He obviously ended up not taking it because he was not flying," Mr. Bartlett said." thats the enswer to the yes or no question)
E) Two other people who obviously know every detail of the suspension are then-Col Bobby Hodges and then-Maj Rufus Martin according to the document posted above--theyre signing onto confirming the original suspension. Hodges was Killian's boss (and Bush's) Of course Killian woud have talked to Hodges about it, Martin too.
F) Other people who obviously know if these are real or not and have the capacity to investigate and prosecute are the USAF. They must have looked these papers over and decided if they were real or not--or they shirked their duty tremendously. Its time for them to let us al, in on the secret.

So then when we consider the allegations of falsity as alleged on http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213508/posts we have more questions:
"53. Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he WROTE them that's what he felt." Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud". "
Well now, isn't that special? did CBS tell him that the documents in question were allegedly George Bush's suspension orders and an order to take his physcial? Hodges would have known right away that these wouldn't have been hand written.
As the document posted above proves, Hodges saw the original Killian orders and most certainly talked to him and Bush about them. So how can he say: "...he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents...." Of course he can--he saw the originals and kinows ever detail of the suspension--which is notably left out on all these points.
Hodges should be the very fist after Bush to be able to authenticate or dicprove these documents, he's got his signature on a confrimation document of Bush's suspension.
This is also real curious: "...His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".
If Bush's CO has concluded that these are a fraud then why isn't he demanding a USAF investigation?? Hodges is implicated in the last CBS document as conspiring to alter Bush's Documents ("...I will backdate but not rate..." Col Jerry Killian.
Backdating but not rating means that Killian knowingly entered false information on an official form--thats a military crime! This is the document in question:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif (posted here)
"Lt Bush has not been observed during the time of this report..."
But thats a completely false statement--and Harris and Killian knew it! Thats why they didn't sign it like theyd so eagerly and unctuously signed his previous 2 OETRs
Bush was most certainly in their unit untill Sep 15th, 1972, thats when his "orders" for Alabama came: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc11.gif
There's over 10 other documents that put Bush in the 111th from May 15th, when they say he left, to 9/15 when he actually did leave--just check the dates on the suspension orders given: 9/5/72 and 9/22/72
See also:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/grounded.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc7.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc6.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc25.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardaugust1.pdf
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc17.gif
All these documents put BUsh in the 111th untill 9/5/72--Killan and Hodges were talkiing to him, approving his transfer requests, suspending him and confirming his suspension all in this time.
So why are they saying he wasn't in their unit at the time? This is a false statement--and they knew it--its why they didn't sign it.
Here's something else important--diring the over 6 mon ths from 4/16/72 to 10/28/72, there's nothing in Bush's pay records for him at all. Pay records: http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...milpay-p1.html
So there's an over 6 month gap during this exact same time when Bush wasn't getting paid at all! Or showing up either!!(according to 111th records)
And his superiors say he wasn't there, when he obviously was!
What is SO up with THAT?

What Killian and HArris did on the OETR was BAckdate Bush's exit from their unit by 4 months and they diud not rate him>
Now fast forward to: http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardaugust18.pdf
"I will backdate but not rate..." Col Jerry Killian
Thats why he called this a CYA--it was to cover his ass incase all these irregularitiews were to surface. It could have cost him his career.
Killian in this statement is admitting a crime--he altered Bush's documents by backdating and not rating. He falsified the date of Bush's exit and did not enter important information about Bush that he knew for sure: that Bush had been suspended for failing to take his physical. (see 1st page: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif )
There's a whole lot more to be gleaned from this document. If, as he says, Bush was not there the whole year then how did Bush get paid for 6 days in Jan73 and 2 days in Apr 73, within this "non-rating" period? As a PILOT? These days are reflected only--repeat--ONLY-- in Bush's pay records, there is NO record of attendance in EITHER of the 2 units he was allegedly attending and NO ONE has come forward to say he was. Besides Bush.
The eveidence starts to become very clear that Bush was paid fraudulently for service he did not perform, COULD NOT have performed because he wsa suspneded from doing so!
George Bush got pilot pay for pilot duty he did not perform. This is FRAUD!!
And his superiors colluded with him every step of the way
Thats why there's no investigationo of these important USAF documents that the Republicans want you to think are forged--but won't prove

I'll be back Monday
Stay good
James

[BLUEHAWK]

No, and no.

Worth discussing, to be sure... but likely to draw a certain kind of fire that has been heard before and which drew blanks.

[catman]

James...what's your point?

Trav