Seperating The Facts From The Fiction

[frisco-kid]

- Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.

- Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.

- Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.

- As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.

- Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Another very interesting article, by Dr. K.G. Sears, sheds even more light on the debt of gratitude we owe to our Vietnam veterans. They served with honor and distinction, and rarely received the recognition they were due. Thank you for your service.

Found here.

? 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
? 2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam
? Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.
? 240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War
? The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.
? 58,148 were killed in Vietnam
? 75,000 were severely disabled
? 23,214 were 100% disabled
? 5,283 lost limbs
? 1,081 sustained multiple amputations
? Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21
? 11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old
? Of those killed, 17,539 were married
? Average age of men killed: 23.1 years
? Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
? The oldest man killed was 62 years old.
? As of January 15, 2 004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War
? 97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged
? 91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served
? 74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome

? Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.
? Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.
? 87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.
? There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study)
? Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
? 85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian life.

Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:
? 1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).
? During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
? As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE who claim to be Vietnam vets are not. The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this errored index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).

? Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - Nixon Presidential Papers Common Myths Dispelled: Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted. Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

? Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.
? Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.

? Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.
? Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia  a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."

? Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.
? Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better. Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action)
Deaths Average Age
Total: 58,148 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years
E1 525 20.34 years
11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years

? Myth: The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.
? Fact: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20. The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.

? Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
? Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.

? Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
? Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ....75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border).

? Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972.....shown a million times on American television....was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
? Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

? Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
? Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. Read on........

The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States. As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington, Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.

Please give all credit and research to:

Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.)
Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source

http://op-for.com/2007/04/vietnam_fact_vs_fiction.html

[Arrow]

Thanks Tom,

I have read some of these stats before but the following was one I've not seen:

"As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day."

711,000 men some in their early 50's the majority of them not yet 60 dead in five years time. All of them Vietnam Veterans. Is it stupid of me to ask how and why? If we take the same age group from those that did not serve in Vietnam is it reasonable to expect that there would be a loss of 711,000 men that died within the same 5 year time period. Someone smarter than me explain why I shouldn't be alarmed by so many deaths in the Vietnam Veteran community between 1995 and 2000. I noticed also that there is no mention of service connected deaths due to service in Vietnam. I've got three I can call out as I write this. My husband, my bro and Andy. And I know there are others on this site that can do the same. These words from Andy echo in my mind from time to time and reading this post brought them back to me.

"Another

There is another good reason why the number of disabled is so low. Starting in '99 I began looking for people I served with. Found 14 guys Co "C" 4/23 Mech Infantry, six had died. Four of them died after being told they had, "Fevers of an unknown origin." That's exactly what I was told in '98. The government probably isn't paying dead veterans.

Stay healthy,
Andy"

"Speaking my mind

The VA does spend millions on Research and Development. Let me tell you a story.

By the beginning of 1998 I had been feeling sick and lethargic all the time for quite a while. I?d not been to see a doctor in about 7 or 8 years. By the summer I was really feeling bad and my wife took me to see a doctor. When my blood results came back my GP called and demanded that I go to the local hospital at once. There is something called a SED rate for your blood. A score of about 12 is average, if the score is around 20 your sick and need some help right away. My score was 132.

Went to one hospital where they kept me for about 10 days, gave me all kinds of tests and sent me home saying I had fevers of an unknown origin. My wife got our GP to send me to a first rate hospital and see a real pro. He determined I had lymphoma but the cancer had moved to a place it shouldn?t have, into the bone marrow. At that time I was one of only about 10 people in the state who were diagnosed with this form of cancer. The doctors I was seeing didn?t make me any better with 3 different form of chemotherapy but did keep me alive.

In December of 1999 I was asked to use a new and experimental drug called Rytuxan. I agreed and it was my Silver Bullet. It took over 16 hours to pump the stuff in but when it was over I was able to drive a car, first time in over 15 months. I did have a relapse in ?02, they can?t cure my cancer, only put it in remission. However with the new drugs developed in cooperation between Harvard and Johns Hopkins the relapse only lasted 3 months and the period of time it now takes to inject this medicine is only 3 hours or so.

Any of you who know Doc Fred and his darling wife Shirley know what wonderful people they are. Until recently Shirley worked at a VA Hospital in the oncology department, giving chemo treatment to vets with cancer. When we first met Fred and his wife during the summer of ?01 I told them about my experience with cancer and the drug Rytuxan. Shirley said that she had heard of the drug and thought that her hospital would begin using it by the end of the year. That means the VA was a full 2 years behind the curve. How many vets died during that period? Lymphoma is the second most common cancer caused by exposure to Agent Orange. We spend 100s of millions on the VA?s R&D and for What?

Note: after getting on the internet I tried to find several friends I was with in Vietnam. Several of their families told me they died. Several said they died of fevers of an unknown origin. Several died in VA hospitals. Sorry if I sound a bit hostile but if the VA would just can their R&D and ask one of several research institution for advise we would save some money and much more importantly several old friends would still be alive.

Please stay healthy,
Andy"

[MORTARDUDE]

? 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

- As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511.

If the above is true, it is horrific. I believe there is a list on the VA web site that shows veterans by wars for each state. I will try to find it.

Larry

[SuperScout]

Originally posted by MORTARDUDE ? 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

- As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511.

If the above is true, it is horrific. I believe there is a list on the VA web site that shows veterans by wars for each state. I will try to find it.

Larry

Careful with your reading, Larry. 9 million + served during the Vietnam era, but that doesn't mean that they were in-country. They could have been serving in Germany for that matter.

[Arrow]

From the above stats there were 2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam.

In August of 1995 according to census figures 1,713, 823 of those that served in Vietnam were still alive.

But the wacko's are still wavin' there false colors:

? 1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).

? During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.

And again in August of 2000 only the number had increased.


By the 2000 Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027.

By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE who claim to be Vietnam vets are not. The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).

It may be possible to access this information from the Department of Defense Vietnam War Index provided by the War Library on line, not sure if that 24/7/365 means digital access.

[SuperScout]

Well, that certainly 'splains the vast difference in numbers! Thanks, Sis! The further I get away - time-wise - from my service in Vietnam, the more I despise wannabees. We few, we happy few, we band of brothers....

[Tamaroa]

I wasn't there. I'm no freakin' hero, but I served 6 years, 4 active and two reserve from 67-73. I spent my time chasing Russians and smugglers and pulling people out of sinking boats. When it was over, I had two ribbons, a good conduct medal and a NDSM AND satisfaction of duty faithfully performed. Had I been ordered to go to VN, I would have gone without a second thought, but I was fortunate.

I don't understand the need to pretend what you are not. We all took the oath and that oath pretty much meant that you served at the pleasure of the President and the country's needs. As long as you gave your country honorable service when it was asked of you,what more can be asked?

Bill

[MontanaKid]

Some of these stats are pretty hard to believe. Afterall, how does anyone get a count on people who falsely claim to be Vietnam veterans? Does someone stand around to record each single claim of service and someone else look it up to see if it's legitimate? It's impossible. That figure is bogus.

Secondly the supposed 700,000 vets that died beteeen 1995 and 2000. I have been in contact with several of the vets from my unit, 1/46th Infantry, Americal. Since first beginning contact in 1986 not a one of us has died. Do we live charmed lives? One would think if some 40 percent of vets died off in five years time, that we would record some among my group. This is another bogus figure.

Some stats look at the wrong data. In an effort to show that the draft played a lesser role some use the "volunteers" vs draft ratio. But the fact was that a great number of volunteers were two-year enlistees who went in because they're eventual selection by the draft was inevitable and they wanted to get their service obligation over with. Other volunteers took a three-year RA option because the draft was also inevitable and they wanted to guarantee a job. If there had been no draft, one presumes many of these "volunteers" would not have signed up.

I have been really skeptical about many of those numbers. I think they get thrown about way too liberally by someone trying to bolster an argument.

[exlrrp]

I have to disagree with some of the stats MK does and more.

But most of all, to claim the US didn't lose the war--that South Vietnam did--is the most complete sophistry.

We created the government of South Vietnam on a legal fiction based on our own interpretation of the geneva Convention (which we had refused to sign.) We created it, equipped it, financed it, led it, installed its leaders and had them assassinated when we didn't like them any more, we established its aims, restricted it in negotiating with the North and pursued our own national aims at the expense of the Vietnamese people.

Throughout the 21 years we supported it, the government of South Vietnam only had one presidential election--and the Strongman in charge, Thieu ran unopposed. it was illegal to be in the Parties that might have run against him.

Not only did we create South Vietnam we said we would support it forever, that it was, despite having canceled the mandated elections in 1956, a "bastion of Democracy" (Dulles.)
It was nothing of the kind, it was a corrupt dictatorship throughout and the Vietnamese kneew it, even though we didn't.

To shove off the loss on the SOuth Vietnamese is chickenshit of the worst caliber. For one thing, they lost 5 times as many men as we did fighting our mutual enemy.

The US lost 58000 men and uncounted billions of dollars over 21 years of fighting a war we should never have gotten into. I don't know how anybody in their right mind could say that wasn't aa hell of a loss, but there's people doing it. Could they answer just one question? what did we gain by it?

Anybody who's been back since the war knows that the Vietnamese are better off now that they were at ANY time while we controlled the country.
Although they live under Communist rule, ther Vietnamese have a hgher standard of living than ever before. There's no whorehouses there any more, no kids begggin in the streets, families living in the streets and refugee camps, like when it was a "democracy"--right Tom?

the Vietnamese are living a better life than ever before and that would definitely not be so if the war was still going on. Theyve gotten by the "American War" and now only want us back as friends and trading partners---Now THATS a win!! and all we had to do was pack up, get out and let the Vietnamese decide their own destiny, instead of us doing it for them. Which they did and its history now.

Intersting enough, though all the dead in Cambodia are decried here, its not said that the Vietbnamese Army was the ones who threw out Pol Pot and ended the killing fields, for all we stoood back and wrung our hands abot it. The government they installled, after a transition, is now considerd a demeocracy. So it can truly be said, in one of the most ironic twists to that war, that the Vietnamese brought Democracy to that region even though we couldn't.

the Vietnamese won when we packed up and left---and so did we.

[exlrrp]

"...? Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
? Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism...."

The Domino Theory WAS false. It was predicated on the belief that the Communists, embodied in the Vietnamese, were going to march through Asia and turn it into an Asian East Europe. This never happened and never came close to happening. the one country that was taken over by the Communists after America left was Cambodia and its never said that the Communist Vietnamese were the ones who ended the brutal reign of Pol Pot. So the one other country they invaded WERE communists already. The US did nothing at all about the Pol Pot regime, even--incredibly---supporting it in the UN when the Vietnamese invaded it. (Carter's worst error, IMHO)

The Vietnamese Communists never had plans to invade their neighbors (Laos and Cambodia excepted) and never did.

"...Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world...."

This is a specious statement, based on old assumptions that have long been proven false. Its based on no historical fact at all--its just somethig to make Americans feel good.

"....If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media..."

this is an entirely subjective statement, I hope no one confuses it with an actual fact--can we see the polls this is based upon?