The Separation Of Fools, Church & State

[BLUEHAWK]

Kmetz -
There's truth in what you are saying, so we'll have to see how the Christian Right would respond when a passage from the Koran or Talmud or Bhagavad Gita or Tao Te Ching or Upanishads someday appears in stone somewhere public. We know of course that numerous Greek Gods and Goddesses are already peering out at us from courthouses and public schools... but of course, they are pagan.

I do not see, inferred or explicitly, anywhere in the first amendment anything whatsoever that states we have a SEPARATION between church and State. It just is not there. I realize that lots and lots of people keep saying it's there, but it is not. All is says is that Congress may not enact anything which establishes a religion, nor may it prevent the exercise of religion. I cannot see how the monument ESTABLISHES a religion which has been with us since the very first day of our Republic.

One positive course of action would be for Jews, Muslims and others to propose equivalent works of art for display, so that others may learn the foundations of every secular law. There is, after all, much commonality in sacred writings.

Scout showed us that the first amendment most noticeably plainly states, among other things, that congress shall make no law "...PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF...", that means NO law, none, nada, zip, zilch.

Placing that beautiful monument where it is, was a free exercise of religion, against which congress shall make NO law. Of course, the amendment did not take into account that a COURT might make such a law, nor that secular rights advocates would regard their freedom from religion and unlimited free speech far more important than that of the huge vast overwhelming majority of us.

It isn't harming anyone where it is. It could actually be a big help to normal people, some of whom may not even know who Moses was nor where the commandments come from, nor that many of our founding documents specify recognition of a higher power. And, since our own laws are openly based upon the commandments, their presence is a kind of history lesson at worst.

America sometimes seems to be a Right wing and a Left wing, each flapping furiously in different directions at different times... while the eagle in the middle keeps waiting for the wings to operate in harmony so that forward motion or peaceful rest might be realized. Let us all pray it does not perish of frustration.

Mike

[BLUEHAWK]

Keith -
The Chief Justice of Alabama (who put the monument there two years ago) has filed a writ with the US Supreme Court ro reverse his own State court's decision, and Alabama is being fined $5000 for each day the sculpture remains inside the rotunda.

[SuperScout]

So what if they erect a monument, tablet or engraved whatever honoring those of the Muslim faith? That doesn't/couldn't make me believe in their religion any more than the placement of the current monument in question forces anybody to embrace any religion. Just because somebody sings "I Saw Mommie Kissing Santa Claus" doesn't make Santa Claus real to everybody else.

And yes, BLUE, I consider myself part of the Christian Right, a pragmatic Chrisitian, and could give a royal flip about others' religious monuments, temples, rites and practices; they too have their freedom of religion, and we all should not have freedom FROM religion rammed down our throats by ill-informed judges with asinine agendas. Folks just might be pleasantly surprised how tolerant a Christian is when it comes to allowing others to practice their respective faiths. My Go-By is simply this: What Would Jesus Do?

[BLUEHAWK]

My guess is that Jesus would likely be mighty happy to see that the commandments, very gently, had a place in the house of human laws.

It isn't being forced on anyone, and that judge ran on a ten commandments paltform, was put in office by the people of Alabama. He was their choice, and he is carrying out a campaign promise. I agree, however, to do so IS very much a unique concept in America these days. In one sense, the voters of Alabama had their chance to keep him and his platform out of office, and did the opposite.

One's freedom FROM religion is not encumbered by the free exercise others make of their own, which is a specifically protected constitutional right.

The true issue in Alabama is that Judge Moore placed the monument two years ago in a public place of government business without, apparently, first getting permission to do so. On that grounds it was wrong, if it was in fact done on the sly. If so, then that is what willbe the deciding factor. If untrue or irrelevant, then the piece ought to be left were it is.

Mike

[SuperScout]

On the sly or off, ain't the question! Some secular bigot filed this lawsuit, not on the "did he get permission from some bureaucrat" argument, but on the so-called separation of church and state deal. Ask 100 people, and I'll bet they can't cite where this doctrine appears in print. HINT, Little Warriors, it ain't in the US Constitution!

This sad scenario reminds me of a T-Shirt I once saw, and although I don't usually think T-shirts messages are prone to good philosophy, this one said on the front, "Jesus is Coming!" and on the back, "... and Boy, is HE Pissed!" I hardly think that My Lord would object to the monument where it is; He might ask an occasional passerby, "How do you like what My Daddy wrote?"

[BLUEHAWK]

Emperor Scout -
Dunno as I'd call 'em bigots, hypocrites is a word that comes to mind, however.

It DOES matter, my anything-goes law-abiding bigger-than-life Texas friend, if the Judge did not go through channels to place the monument two years ago. Not that I myself give a darn, I like it and I like where it is right now... I'd even like to see something similar in EVERY american courthouse, if for no reason other than to remind the JUDGES about certain truths!

I know, I know, there IS NO place in the Constitution where a word is said about SEPARATION between church and state. So, this would be another reason to insist upon English being the national language, then people could then read the words before them and not see words that are not there. But (you'll love this!) I'd say the same about the second amendment, where in no place does it say that every single human in America has a constitutional right to own and carry a gun or as many guns as will fit through the door of any calibre and type. I happen to favor the concept of an armed "home guard" type militia, but have not noticed the NRA making their usual endless stink about the weapons being taken from Iraqis... you know the ones, them that's gonna receive the gift of democracy from our government which is gonna spread throughout all of Mesopotamia and the Ottoman Empire and bring peace and prosperity to the region.

Back to your post, though... what amazes me about the debate over Alabama is that the ones who brought the lawsuit simply will not address the question continuously being asked of them about what they think should happen to prayers before Congress, God on our currency, God in our pledge, hands on bibles when being sworn in, God in oaths taken etc.

If my read of things is accurate, Ten Commandments imagery has been banned in public schools since 1980...and I would say that is just about coincident with when the snotty brat coefficient started to rise in classrooms.

Maybe it's all about selFISHness vs selfLESSness?

[MORTARDUDE]

Excellent points :

You cannot have it both ways, but the federal government does in many matters. If what they are saying about "separation of church and state" ( it isn't a law ...it was mentioned in a "letter" by Thomas Jefferson ), God should be erased from everything pertaining to the federal government. It is not going to happen. What they are doing is circumventing state and county rights and asserting a "religion of atheism"...which is a religion.....the worship of "no god"...

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry -
Yeah! AND, they surely did not have any problem at all defending to the hysterical hilt (on first amendment grounds, no less!) that Andres Serrano "PISS CHRIST" work of "art", and Mapplethorpe's photos of men with bullwhip handles up their butts in Cincinnati, which the National Endowment for the Arts helped fund with tax dollars a few years back!

Talk about OFFENSIVE free speech! Cripes, when did they ever give a crap about that which is REALLY disgusting?

Man oh man, it just makes me wanna shake 'em silly.

Mike

[MORTARDUDE]

Here is one for you :
When is the ACLU going to sue A.A. for saying the Lords Prayer at the end of their meetings and it being mandatory that you profess a belief in a higher power. As many A.A. meetings are held in public buildings, this should also be against the law. In addition, as many people are mandated by the courts to attend A.A. meetings (and therefore pray), the courts in effect are establishing religion. THIS is a more blatant violation of any so-called "wall of separation" than what Judge Moore is doing.

Judges at all levels practice hypocrisy on a daily basis from their "latitude in sentencing", this religious claptrap, and on to many other stupid actions. The guilty should be punished and kept in jail. If this was done uniformly across the country, recidivism would disappear, and the younger generation would see that if you commit crimes, you would be dealt with and locked up. What a wonderful world it would be...But no..instead we have the situation where I live...where when criminals commit heinous crimes their rap sheet is printed in the paper and every possible crime you can imagine is listed and sometimes the folks in question are just in their 20s and out of prison. If I had commited only one of the crimes listed I would would expect 30+ years in the slammer...Go figure.

off my soapbox.

Larry

[BLUEHAWK]

Larry,
Back on my soapbox...

AA is THE ONLY damn thing that ever had a prayer of helping a single alcoholic get right with life... and never once do they ever demand or require ANYBODY to say a Lord's Prayer, believe in God or anything else. What they do say is that since some people have proven that they are incapable of managing their own lives, maybe it'd be wise to start thinking of something or someone other than themselves. And it don't cost anybody one thin dime, not a dime; AA accepts NO money from any government, foundation, or donor.

I had never heard your story about this Larry... now I am more ticked off at those spineless selfish cretins than ever before.

Mike