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Old 04-28-2002, 11:42 AM
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Default Was The American Revolution England's First Vietnam?

Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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From :Ellensburg, Washington
Posted 17-10-2001 at 01:05
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It certainly was the beginning of the decline of the British Empire. However, I don't believe the war was fought wisely. I have always believed if the War had been more of a hit and run until you destroyed the will and desire of the British troops it would have ended much earlier. Take advantage of your knowledge of the land, keep your losses to a mininum and be more guerilla type warfare in your concept. Of course there where some great examples of guerilla warfare but I always felt that they fought too much European style.

Keith


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chilidog

Registered to :Aug 22, 2001
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Posted 17-10-2001 at 23:11
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That's a good point Keith. Why didn't we learn guerilla tactics from the Indians anyway?

chilidog


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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Posted 18-10-2001 at 00:22
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Hind Sight is great! Isn't it.

Keith


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Paula

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Posted 16-12-2001 at 23:18
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I do know some of the battles were quite hit and run. Col. Jonathan Eddy and Cpt Zebulon Rowe attacked the fort in Nova Scotia and just missed having won...rather interesting reading.

Have you heard of it?


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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Posted 16-12-2001 at 23:55
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I must admit that other than the some of the major battles I am woefully ignorant of the Revolutionary War. I know much more about the Civil War. If I remember correctly there were some skirmishes and attacks in the remote areas that certainly weren't conventional warfare but most of the major battles were conventional. Maybe Trenton on Christmas would have the exception.

Keith


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Paula

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Posted 18-12-2001 at 17:31
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Well, I have a copy of some material about Col. Eddy. Some of it was recorded by Congress and his diary as well. Interesting. Col. Eddy's son Lt. William Eddy was killed under a flag of truce. The British stopped the sacking of the city to let his wife and children leave. That too is interesting. Of course Col. Eddy had a price on his head of 200 lbs. and his second in command Capt Zebulon Rowe had only a 100...rather a lot in those days...nobody turned them in.


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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Posted 19-12-2001 at 01:34
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Paula,

Is there an e-mail site about the Eddy's? It sounds interesting.

Keith


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Paula

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Posted 19-12-2001 at 04:58
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Not sure. He founded the town of Eddington, Maine. I have a few copies of this and that about him if you like. I don't have his records yet from the NATIONAL ARCHIVES. I do know he was given about a thousand acres in ohio, but never left Eddington. He died in Aug 1804. Was postmaster of his neck of the woods. Plus...he was one of the settelers of Nova Scotia....Arcadians. I'm sorry to say he and a few others were responsible for them being thrown out. He was in His Majesties Army....French and Indian Wars...

Anyway I can give you some of it from one of the Eddington town historical society's book for 1976 celebration....his diary has been published as well as his orders etc. Plus I have a copy of Congressional records...and I believe GEN. WASHINGTON mentioned him in his diary as well.

Let me know and I can copy what I have here....


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Paula

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Posted 20-12-2001 at 15:30
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I've posted an "article". I doubt it will be heard. It's about Col, Eddy. I'm just not wanted. Too out of the party line it seems.

Hope you enjoy the NO FREEDOM that's on it's way in....

I'm not wrong I'm sorry to say. End of Land of the FREE and home of the BRAVE...it's all YES men......now.




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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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From :Ellensburg, Washington
Posted 20-12-2001 at 16:04
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Thanks will check it out.

Keith


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Paula

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Posted 21-12-2001 at 15:02
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Just read your posted bio....nice to know you're a minister.

Hope you like the articule....if it's posted. Also put a picture up but, it's alsways "lost" by the reciever....I guess they don't like it...can't say I do either! Long story. But, I've bored everyone with it long enough....shut up pretty much the attitude...

11 Sep 1977...said the same thing sorta...said it again for 11 sep 2001 too...not a problem...for ANYONE...I guess that's a hint I'm NOBODY they need to concern themselves with...anyway...IF IT'S ALLOWED you might enjoy it.


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Paula

Registered to ec 16, 2001
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Posted 25-12-2001 at 11:04
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Johnathan Eddy 1726-1804

From History Of Eddington by Carolyn A. Wood for Eddington Bicentential Committee 1976-Reflections From Eddington:

The history of Eddington really begins with an account of the life and adventures of the Revolutionary hero, Col. Johnathan Eddy. This exceptional man was born in Norton, Massachusetts, 1726. There he lived until 1755 where he was spoken of as "gentleman." He served in the "French War" and following that he helped erect Fort Halifax and other fortifications along the Kennebec River in the year 1754.

Before going furthur with this account it would be well to recall that this area was still part of the crown colony of Massachusetts. The Eastern lands beyond the east banks of the Penobscot River to Machias was an area prctically untouched by human settlement. This teritory had never been formally claimed by either the French or English.

In 1758 Govenor Pownal of the Massachusetts Colony came to the Penobscot River to locate sites for the erection of forts. He came up the river to a point near the mouth of the Kenuskeag Stream and, as he relates to his diary:

"landed on the east side of the river with 136 men and proceded to the head of the first falls' about four and a quarter from the first ledge. Clear land on the left for about four miles - At the head of the falls - buried a Leaden Plate with the following inscription: May 23, 1758, Province of Massachusetts Bay - Dominion of Great Britain, - Possession confirmed by T. Pownal, Gov. Erected a flagstaff, - hoisted the King's Colors and saluted them."

In consequence of this act of Gov. Pownal the territory between the Penobscot and the St. Croix was saved to the United States by the treaty of 1783.

The precise spot where Gov. Pownal buried the leaden plate and took possession was without doubt upon the land of Col. Eddy which he recieved under this grant and where he afterwards settled. Many have been interested in the present whereabouts of this leaden plate. Searching has been fruitless because of flowage caused bu construction of a dam lower down the river and by subsequent erosion. There seems to be no indication of distance from the water's edge in Gov. Pownal's account.

In this same year {1758} Gov. Pownal authorized Johnathan Eddy to "beat drums within this province, for enlisting volunteers for His Majesty's service," referring to him as Capt. In 1758 he {Capt. Eddy} raised a company for the Reduction of Canada in a regiment under the command of Thomas Dety, Esquire.

During 1759 he kept a daybook which these excerpt are taken:

"Whereas the itch increases among the soldiers of this garrison, the officers are earnestly recommended to procure brimstone and what else may be needed to cure it and put a stop to it. June 30. Divine service to be attended once every Sunday by all garrison not on duty. July 3. Rum will not defend the soldier from inclemency of the weather nor the attacks of stinging insects, with which this country very plentifully abounds, as clothes would, and besides too much strong water intoxicates the brain."

"July 21. Men shall not eat their molasses with their victuals but brew it into beer. Sept. 30. Officers and private soldiers having been accustomed to gaming at cards in the barraks, such gameing is forbidden and to be suppressed."

He was discharged in 1760 and returned to Norton, Mass. where he remained until 1763 when he bought land in Fort Cumberland, Nova Scotia."


"It seems that after the fall of the famous French fortress at Louisburg, the Acadians, or French neutrals, were driven out of Nova Scotia, leaving a great deal of rich farmlands vacant. Many of these unfortunate Acadians wandered south to the area around Louisiana and Alabama. Their story is made memerable by the poem "Evangeline," written by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Gov. Charles Lawrence made seductive offers of these rich lands to emigrants from the Massachusetts province. Many shiploads from Boston, Plymouth, Rhode Island, and New London emigrated to the promised land in Nova Scotia. Johnathan Eddy and his family were among these.

Johnathan Eddy lived for ten years at Chignecto Bay where he aquired a great deal of influence and prominence, becoming sheriff of the county.

Upon the outbreak of the Revolutionary War he went to Gen. Washington to see if troops might be raised to bring Nova Scotia into the United States; the Commonwealth of Massachusetts helped him somewhat in his project, but it is doubtful if he got any significant aid from the Continental Congress.

On the twelfth of November, 1776, he led a detachment of 72 men including some St. Johns' Indians in an attack on Fort Cumberland. Wiliamson, Maine historian, tells the story thus:

"To ascertain the true condition of the fort he sent Captain Zebulon Rowe, who visited and thoroughly examined it without exciting suspicion. Eddy next persuaded by threat and promises of rewards about 150 men; and with a number of them porceded to Chepody Hill in the nightimt and took a captain, a sergeant, and fourteen men prisoner. The third night afterwards, he and a party of twenty-five men attacked a vessel of 100 tons as she lay aground, and made prize of her. She had on board six hundred barrels of pork and beef, a ton of candles, fifty firkins of butter, seven hundred new blankets, and two hogsheads of rum, all intended for the garrison - a part of which was retaken.

The fort embraced about an acre of ground. Its entrenchments were fifty feet in width - the slope twenty-five, and the embankment within eight feet in height - and the breadth on top four feet. On the outside were logs and pickets stretched along the slope, which might be rolled down with utmost ease and with great violence upon any assailants. Collecting his whole force, he approached the fort in a cloudy night. Sept 27 by three parties; one attempted to scale the banks by using ladders while others made a furious assault. But Col. Grham, commander of the fort, having been apprised of the attack and reinforced, made a brave defense, killed several of the invaders and completely repulsed the rest."


"Seldom is defeat accmpanied with such painful circumstances. Those who had houses in the vicinity soon saw them in flames and their families in the depths of distress. No other alternatives remained to the assailants than to surrender or flee the province. If caught, their fate might be that of traitors or rebels; therefore they left their families and took their route along the north shore, across the river St. John at Frederickton, and thence to Machias. Here they sucessfully arrived, half naked, and famished, having been in the woods twenty-five days. Their families who remained through a winter of extreme suffering were brought away in the spring under a flag of truce. Eddy and his associates dared not return to Nova Scotia for at the Council held at Halifax on the 17 of Nov. 1776 certain intelligence was presented to the effect that, "Johnathan Eddy, William Howe and Samuel Rogers have been to the utmost of their ability exciting and stirring up rebellion among the people of the County of Cumberland and are actually before the fort at Cumberland with a considerable number of rebels from New England and some Acadians and Indians."

It was therefore resolved to offer 200 pounds as a reward for apprehension of Johnathan Eddy, and 100 pounds for taking each of the others so that they be brought to justice.

Eddy then entered the Continental Army. He was at Machias on Aug. 12, 1777 when it was attacked by the British; some historians claim that it was Col. Eddy who led the {counter} attack"..."and is so stated on the official reports of the incident."

At the close of the war Col. Eddy and nineteen of his associates were awarded a grant of something over 9,000 acres of land on the east bank of the Penobscot in appreciation of their services during the American Revolution.

In August, 1784 Col. Eddy and his family removed from their Mass. home to township No. 10, east side of the Penobscot River, at the head of the tide. The township was later known as Eddytown Plantation and still later incorporated as the Town of Eddington, 1811 - in honor of Col. Eddy.

...In 1785 he bought the first vessel ever owned on the Penobscot River, the Schooner Blackbird. Her register signed by John Hancock, Gov. of Mass., says she was built at Beverly, 1780 and sold by Peter Coffin, Jr. of Gloucester, later bought by Col. Eddy....

He was the first magistrate on the Penobscot River. He was appointed by Gov. Hancock "A Special Justice of the Court of Common Pleas, A Register of Probate and Wills and a Justice of the Peace and Quorum for the County of Penobscot" ....."In Feb 1792 he issued a warrant to Capt. James Budge, calling a meeting of the inhabitants to organize the town of Bangor. In the year 1800 he was appointed postmaster at Eddyton Plantation, a post route having been established there...

After a long and eventful life Col. Eddy died Aug 1804, aged 78."


P.S. I have some excerpts from congressional records....as well as a few stories about his son and his son's wife....plus gossip about his sons wifes family....her mother (or grandmother) was widowed married a patriot and her late husbands estate was confiscated even though he was loyal to the crown...plus a few tales of treason etc....(her mama's maiden name was Arnold)


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desrvedaCMH

Registered to :Nov 22, 2001
Messages :5
From :right over here
Posted 25-12-2001 at 12:07
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keith
it was the beginning of the end to allimperialism.
you have to understand the tactics of the flintlock riflr. the thing wasn't accurate more than about 50 yds and the main tactic was to march yr troops up to range, let fire and charge with the bayonet. The defending side would only have one shot within range and if you had enough attackers you could overwhelm the position without too many causalties. With the advent of the rifled musket and its range of several hundred yards, this became suicidal as the CW proved.

but a few men can never beat massed troops--the mass may lose some but they'll take and hold their objectives. I don't think we could ever have beaten down the British troops will to resist--just wait them out untill the british realised they were fighting a war of diminishing returns, which they ultimately did
gotta go
Merry Christmas
James









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Paula

Registered to ec 16, 2001
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Posted 25-12-2001 at 20:18
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interesting. But, I don't think Col. Eddy did that very often.....French and Indian wars....weren't that many stand up and fight face to face....new ballgame.

Still, when you get BRITISH and COLONIAL face to face they play somewhat by the "rules" However a few must have figured "all's fair in love and war" and went for the nearest wall, rock, bush, tree....we learned a bit over the century or two before the Revolution. I have quite a few ancestors whose date of death have a notation ...Killed by indians...generally specific tribe mentioned as well...early of course...all NEW ENGLAND...we didn't head WEST until the mid 20th century.


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
Messages :445
From :Ellensburg, Washington
Posted 25-12-2001 at 23:07
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Thanks!
I'm enjoying your comments. The Hixson's came to the New World in the 1640's or 50's in the New Jersery Area. Spread through out the United States after the Revolutionary War. The paper trail before 1790 is sparse and after 1790 is very complete for us as Hixson. My great .............. grandfather supposed fought with the Continental Army but is hard to document. Oh well I am enjoying your comments. Thank you!
Keith

Andy

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
Messages :197
From :Massachusetts
Posted 26-12-2001 at 01:38
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Keith: thought about the question and have an idea or two.

The VC wanted everyone from other countries to get off their turf. Us American's wanted the Brits out of here.

The battle of Saratoga was an American victory but not a really large battle and the Brits lost mostly because of a few generals were pretty poor. The US did not loose Tet but because of a few pretty poor news reporters it seemed to a lot of people like we did.

Saratoga made others, like the French, believe America could win, the world changed the way they dealt with us. Tet made Americans believe we could loose and really took the VC (and NVA) seriously.

America could not have held their own against the Brits without foreign aid. VC needed lots of foreign aid to fight the US.

Very few battles were actually won by Washington against the British Army. The VC didn't really win any battles against us.

The English people lost the desire for war and were more interested with their problems with France. The US people lost the desire for war in Vietnam and were more concerned with the USSR.

England actually lost America not on the battle field but in the halls of Parliment. The US did not loose Vietnam on the battle field but actually lost Vietnam in the halls of Congress and the White House.

Seems like there are some things the two wars had in common. However, don't think that was the begining of the end for the Brits. After Napoleon was defeated in 1815, seemed like Great Britan was The super power until WWI.

DESRVEDACMH: Hi, nice meeting you. Don't mean to throw stones but I really don't agree with the first sentance of your post. You said, our revolution was the begining of the end for Imperialism. Maybe in someway but:

The US didn't begin to really get into being an imperialist country until the 1800s. After our revolution some countries of Europe cut up almost all of Africa. After the end of our revolution, several European countries and Japan obtained "Spheres of Influence" in China. I think I read once that the 1800s were called the age of Imperialism. But I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the issue.

Stay healthy,
Andy


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Paula

Registered to ec 16, 2001
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Posted 26-12-2001 at 01:51
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Well, it's hard to find that sort of thing...before 1790....well try the US CENSUS of 1790....may help a bit. At least you'd get some names....sometimes a brother or Uncle lived in the household....also if He was a soldier you might try checking with NARA also many books on who's who in the soldier sailors...check out DAR (Daughters of the American revolution) They may have some Hixson's listed...it's a start! Many people came over with relatives and what they call allied families....most of us can find the first one to get here....check out passenger lists for ships that came over in that time frame....I have one who came over in 1650 or so IN CHAINS....he fought on the wrong side against the British...Bonnie Prince Charlie, etc. Interesting fellow....John MacBEAN (yep. Right stuff Alan Bean is one of his decendents). As for the rest....tons of them since I follow the FEMALE side as well...you might try it too. Sometimes you can find the male line by checking the WIFES side.

By the way, did I mention that Col. Eddy is on the female side? My Grandmother Hildred I. Bean....her grandmother (her father's mother) was Georgianna Eddy....

She was born in 1842 and died 1927. I look like her, sorta. Her father was George Eddy (1812-1883) and her mother was Elizabeth Colbath (1818-189 and HIS Father was Joseph Eddy (1766-1850) and his mother was Elizabeth ROWE (1783-1867) (daughter of Capt Zebulon Rowe) and HIS father was Lt. William Eddy (1752-1778 killed during Rev. war) his wife was OLIVE MORSE (1754-183(daughter of Joseph Morse and Olive Mason...her mother was Mary ARNOLD and her father Was Thomas Mason) anyway Lt. William was Col Eddy's son...his wife Mary WARE...Col. Eddy's father was Eleazer EDDY (1681-1739) wife Elizabeth Cobb...his father John Eddy (1637-1715) his wife Deliverence Owen (1655-1726) His father , who came here, was Samuel EDDY (1608-1687) wife Elizabeth Savory...his father Rev. William Eddy (1558-1616) his wife Mary FOSTER (1568-1611) his father Thomas Eddy (1542-157 his father's name was Thomas too born around 1519....that's about as far back as I go for the EDDY's.....

Anyway, check out SPELLING differences!

If you like I can see what I can come up with.

Paula


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usmcsgt65

Registered to :Jan 03, 2002
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From :Las Vegas, NV
Posted 04-01-2002 at 20:36
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Andy has a very good grasp on the Revolution. Just keep in mind, Americans, the Continential Army, had to fight European style at some point to defeat a British army to make the British government rethink their position on America. The treaty to end the war came two years after the Yorktown defeat. Vietnam was never a colony of the United States.


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
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Posted 04-01-2002 at 22:14
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Enjoying this line of thought. Welcome back on line Andy. I miss your comments. Hope you are feeling better. I posted this originally so we could have a good active discussion because that is often how we learn.

Keith


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Andy

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
Messages :197
From :Massachusetts
Posted 05-01-2002 at 01:42
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Keith, I thought that post might sturr a person or two to disagree but there doesn't seem to be much of a discussion. I'd say Uncle Ho was their George Washington but I will not. Don't want anyone to hurt me. (Don't want anyone to think Klue is on this site.)

Would you belive I started taking antiboitics on Dec. 5th and I'm still taking them? However, I'm a lot better now. I know that, Annette told me so.

Stay healthy,
Andy


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Keith_Hixson

Registered to :Aug 23, 2001
Messages :445
From :Ellensburg, Washington
Posted 05-01-2002 at 01:51
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Andy,

Nice to hear you are doing better. The one thing I appreciated about WarriorKule (or whatever) was he made us think. I think it was Larry (Mortordude) and I had a good time exchanging our Ideas how Southerners and Northerners view the civil war. I enjoyed the exchange. I wish there was more exploring our history.

Keith
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Old 04-29-2002, 06:43 PM
usmcsgt65 usmcsgt65 is offline
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Angry England's Vietnam

Some many excellent responses. England's Vietnam, I don't think so. The British were still growing after the Revolution. One might even say because of the Revolution, the British Empire grew. England expand to Egypt because of the Revolution. It expanded to Australia because (remember about the convicts). It expanded to South Africa to secure the route to China and Australia.

Also, the Americans would never win using "Indian" warfare. At some point the Continental Army had to "stand up" to the British and win victories or Europe would recognize the new nation. England did not have an anti-war group similar to the 1968 American verision.
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Old 03-17-2003, 09:31 PM
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I think it was more likely that Ireland was England's Vietnam. That war lasted almost a thousand years. The thing was the same, the Irish just never accepted defeat. The clumsy stupidity of the English helped a lot, too. I wonder if Ireland would have ever been free if they had not had the Potato Famine in the 1840's. The actions of the English hardened the Irish position severely.
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Old 03-19-2003, 12:51 PM
usmcsgt65 usmcsgt65 is offline
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I don't think Ireland was England's Vietnam. England conquored the land, but not the spirit of the Irish people. Only twice have the Irish rose up against the Brits. If was a Vietnam, why is England still in the northern counties. I am of Irish background, Harrington's from Munster, grandmother born in Dublin, etc. I am in favor of a united island.
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Old 03-28-2003, 03:26 AM
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How could the Revolutionary War be England's Vietnam?

For one, when the Revolutionary War took place, England was known as Great Britain. I thought yall were war veteran's and shit?

And two, the Revolutionary War was more like the British Civil War because we were declaring our independence from our parent nation. The British didn't go to some foreign country and help it's allies defeat it's enemy.
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Old 09-13-2003, 12:17 AM
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This is a bit of an old thread, but I've just joined. From a Canadian perspective, I would state that the American Revolution was America's first Civil War: father against son, brother against brother.

My ancestors fled New Jersey in 1783, leaving behind all their worldly possessions and a great many family members. I believe that they placed great value on their oath of allegiance (something that George Washington, who swore allegiance to the Crown seemed to have forgotten).

The Revolution is considered the impetus to the creation of modern Canada. Prior to the war, this country was rural in nature, and mainly populated by peasant French Canadian farmers. The influx of thousands of United Empire Loyalists changed all that. We are still a monarchy today, and a modern democracy.

Some historians have estimated that one in six Canadians have a Loyalist ancestor (although with the large numbers arriving in the recent past that is changing).

From my readings, the British lost the war because they had generals who were either incompetent or reluctant to press the issue.
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Old 09-17-2003, 12:57 PM
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You're right about the continental army not using "indian" tactics during the Rev War. Aside from April 19, 1775 and several skirmishes down south, the war was fought in set-piece European style with massed artillery and columns and rows of soldiers. Washington knew that fighting indian style would've meant that any potential allies would've thought twice about coming to the aid of a guerilla army.

While Britain didn't have any organized anti-war protestors like here in the '60's and '70's, they did have their share of detractors, mostly in the form of businessmen who were losing great amounts of money due to the interruption of commerce caused by American privateers and French, Spanish and Dutch naval vessels. Its kind of ironic that the catalyst of the Revolution was taxation of American colonies by Britain to pay for the cost of fighting the 7 Years War (aka; French and Indian War). In the long run it cost them even more to fight a second war in North America. Plus they had systematically shut down American industries to keep them from competing with British interests (we could produce some manufactured goods cheaper here since the source of raw materials was here and didn't have to be imported).
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Old 11-17-2003, 04:18 PM
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Interesting. Why the quotes in the first?
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Old 11-17-2003, 05:14 PM
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Bill Smy: I agree it was the first Civil war in the US and relatives had to pick sides and a lot did pack up and move north because of the War. Good Point Bill
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