fraternization policy

[nataliemarie]

I understand the rank structure. I understand the chain of command. I understand why all are put into place and what the reasoning is for it.. but sometimes I think it's taken too far...

How is an E3 who's been in the army for under two years supposed to learn anything about the army, about growing up in the military, about being a leader both in and out of uniform, if I am only "allowed" to hang out with other lower enlisted who are as FNG as me?

I am lucky to fly with top heavy warrants who have, for the most part, been enlisted longer than I've been alive.. and have learned so much from their stories, from the experience.. and their advice.

And here, I have only been here a short while and know that I will take away many learned ideas from you all as well.

... how can they expect lower enlisted to mature into future leaders without the influence of our superiors.. I'm not talking an E3 and a full bird going out for a beer. But when a spec4 gets his stripes and has to "cut off" any frienships he has with lower enlisted.. isn't that taking the policy a bit far?

Work hard.. play hard!

Thanks.

Respectfully,
PFC Natalie Hughes

[1IDVET]

Leaders lead by example.

That is how you learn from them.

Asking them questions is not fraternization.
Being friendly with lower enlisted is counter to good order and discipline.

You can be buds with the other PFCs, but your NCOs are there to teach you by their example and experience, and to give orders as necessary to accomplish the mission.

If he/she was your buddy, then it is that much harder for them to do.

[Keith_Hixson]

I was in a headquarters company. I socialized with just about anyone I wanted to. I had very close friends who were Majors and friends who were E-3s and E-4s. They didn't enforce the fraternization rules. However, E-4s and E-3's were always allowed to hang out together and be friends. E-5s and above were considered true NCO's. I know that E-4s are supposedly NCO's but were never treated as such when I was in the Army. E - 3s and E-4s were considered basically equals.

From the time I got out of Basic I was filling an E-5 slot or higher. Most of the time I was filling an E - 7 slot so I got treated differently even though I was only a private. Being in a headquarters company is a different experience also.

Now getting back to issue. The military feels that if higher ranking men get too close to lower ranking personal it is more difficult for them to give orders without questioning. Friendships with officers wasn't suppose to happen but it does when working with officers on a daily basis. Mature people can be friends and understand seperation. With immature folks it won't work. So to protect the integrity of the military they put in those rules. For the most part they are there for a purpose.

The worst chewing out I ever got while in the Army was for having a discussion with a Colonel and expressing my opinion. A Major over heard the conversation and told me I was out of line, etc. The Colonel had asked for my opinion but the Major didn't think I had that right to "tell him how to run his operation." I politely listened and didn't argue but thought to myself, he was out of line because I had been asked for my opinion.

I wrote all that to say. The rule does have a purpose so don't fight it but float along with it. But, good officers and NCO's will allow you to learn by observation and asking questions, which isn't fraternization.

Good Luck.

Keith

[nataliemarie]

I can understand that.. and I respect the policy, I mean its worked pretty damn well so far... we do have the best army in the world

I have been surrounded by top heavies since I got out of AIT.. and working with them everyday, they respect my opinion and like my BC said.. "If it's broke.. tell me it's broke." I respect my superiors and they all know it.. but I think too many times things don't get done properly because subordinates fail to realize that we all put our pants on the same way in the morning, and they're afraid to tell the truth.

Thanks for your input guys

Respectfully,
PFC Natalie Hughes

[Dragon Lady]

Natalie,
My AF experience is pretty much in line with Keith's. Those rules are there for a reason. Think of it this way... Your mom and dad are your superiors and not your friends. You can have a friendship with them, but only so far as you understand the rules. If they tell you to do something, then you should follow their "orders" and not talk back. Sometimes the hardest part is learning when the time to give an opinion and when to keep the mouth shut, do the job, and discuss it later.
By being "friends" with your supervisors, you may be more apt to second guess their intentions and that can cost lives.

My exhusband and I were enlisted mechanics together in the AF, shortly after we married he got a commision as an active duty pilot while I was still on the flightline. I looked at him and said, I hope you dont expect me to ever salute you or put up with any outrageous orders. (had one pilot during a flight over the Atlantic that wanted me to change the wingtip Nav light on a C5, yeah slow down a few hundred mph and I crawl out and change it!). That was when I decided that if our marriage was to work I needed to get separate from the service.

I hope my experiences have helped to clarify your question. It doesnt seem "fair", but it is the safest course of action for everyone.
DL

[thebrad]

It is a topic that has no black or white but only shades of gray...

It is left up to your judgement to decide what is and is not appropriate - but know that in the end it's the judegement of others that will make the call.

If mentorship is what you are after than you will have no problems - if you are around NCO's who are worth their salt than they will be available as mentors... without any sort of fraternization.

As for the issue with the promotion from lower enlisted to NCO there is no easy answer but by policy only one correct answer: keep your relationship on a professional level.

[BLUEHAWK]

a) A top once told me he had no friends and no enemies, and intended to keep it that way.

b) Could be, I notice, one major difference between civilians and vets/actives is that we do respect (or damn well should) chain of command... stuff just works better that way.

c) When it comes to gender-based fraternization, problems arise... but maybe exceptions could be made for true love... probably not. It bothered me some when the female AF pilot got drummed out, rules are rules, but ...dunno, hard question, no answer except the one we've got.

[nataliemarie]

Thanks guys! I haven't had a problem with the policy.. I guess its because I have no problem taking orders (reason being.. when I get to the point where I'm giving the orders.. you best believe others better be taking them ... my time will come when I have to make the decisions and others will be on the receiving end.)

But, I have seen so many problems errupt from this policy within my company. I can't say I agree with all the "corrective" punishment either. If an E5 is friends with an E4 whom he has no control over, is not in his NCO support channel, and shows no favoritism.. whats the problem? Somebody wanted to do some paperwork...

I agree with Brad (Lt brad?) its a grey area.. it'll always be a grey area. In some units, they all go out together and work is seperated from play. In other units, we work together and thats it...

Thank you again for all your comments.. I appreciate the time

Respectfully,
PFC Natalie Hughes

[revwardoc]

For the most part, we didn't fraternize with officers mainly because they thought that the brass or silver on their shoulders meant their collective shit didn't stink. However, there were a couple of memorable officers. We had this one captain who was very cool. He listened to us and if he thought we had a good idea, he acted on it and gave us the credit. He'd joke with us, bust our balls,and get his hands dirty with us on the flightline. With that kind of rapport, when he gave us an order, we'd jump, because it was he giving the order and not some faceless brass. Once, after working a over 12 hours in 105 degree heat on a C-141 getting it ready for a mission to SEA, we were in line in the terminal caf getting a coke whena transient "spit'n'polish" CMSgt started to give us a heavy ration because our unis were dirty. The Captain came over and proceeded to chew that asshole a new asshole and reminded him that he had no authority on that base (of course, I did push it a bit when I asked him, since he was so red in the face and sweating, if he'd like a coke). I can be such a jerk!

So here's to you, Cap'n Gordon. You were the best officer I ever knew.

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -
I got busted by one of those "spit n polish" CMsgt types, the closest officer was a bird sitting too far away to notice, and the rest of our O ranks were in the air that day performing T&Gs for checkout... but I know what you mean about an O or an NCO (for that matter) who will do the work with you, makes a helluva difference come squeeze time.

This is one reason I get along with Scout as well as any man can... he WILL do the work with ya (if not FOR ya in a pinch).