Russian Gas at theater?

[Boats]

I heard that hostages were taken (700) and that many are dead and so are the hostages? I also heard that this would be in violation of the UN accords if it were a special nerve agent. But the Russian's are not telling their Doctor's what they used! Makes me wonder whats going on?

[Seascamp]

Not a lot is being said but from what I gather contemporary Russia does not have a paramilitary force that is trained or equipped to deal with terrorists so the Russian Army did the clearing operation. The speculation is that they didn?t have the gas concentration/ mix right so it was fatal as opposed to being of the concentration to knock people out. Bad news for sure but I don?t know if the news had a chance of getting any better, regardless. We?ll see what develops but I?m betting the Russians get together a group that can deal with the terrorists and leave the Army in the barracks to wait for other jobs to be done. In the bad old days, the Soviet Army (and Navy) had the philosophy of ?quantity has a quality all it?s own? so maybe the Moscow clearing operation followed those old philosophies and was a lot more aggressive than need be, but I won?t speculate, given the magnitude of the tragedy.

Scamp

[Boats]

Scamp,

More and more of this stuff is going to occur. Unless we all come together and iron out these differences. Russia doesn't have too many friends after all they've been pounding the "iron fist" for decades and now they don't even have money to pay their troops. Think how long our guys would stay in with no money!

It's going to be dfficult the next 10 years or so for all parties. Those who've been dealt the bad hand will be looking for revenge. If they see an opening they will strike.

I'm sure our buddy Hardcore would have much to say about this subject but he's most likely previewing his next byline.

[Seascamp]

The levels down in the Russian Army are in a state of flux and shambles and their bosses probably aren?t in much better shape. So nothing is ever simple and there is always a risk inside a risk, inside a risk, etc., it seams. Great book of some time back called ?The Threat? and deals with the reality of the then Soviet Army. Real interesting reading if it is still in print.

I don?t read Hardcore a lot simply because I get lost in the monolog all to often, and can?t figure out the argument or position, or don?t take the time too. But he does have some interesting positions from time-to-time. Who dat man in da bag, who dat?

Scamp

[Boats]

Scamp,

The Russian Navy (old nukes) are a large threat to their people and their technology is such that they don't know how to get rid of the waste.

Half of their Northern areas are contaminated and that's all the way down to their drinking water and lakes. We should talk with all that waste at the Hanford sites.

Here's two super-power's dealing with their cold war hardware and now you've got 3rd world countries wanting to generate nukes and you know they won't have a problem dumping their waste into their backyards.

The way its going the world won't have to nuke themselves the waste will take us out - a little slower and we may begin to deform here and there but its happening.

I don't like the scenario thats buidling up!

[Seascamp]

When out doing plane guard for the strike Carriers during the VN war one of the things we had to do was keep tabs on the Soviet subs, as they dearly loved to come snooping around and looking for trouble and/or just being a pain in the butt. A joke at the time was ?forget about the hydro phones and just trail a Geiger counter?. The Soviet boats didn?t have biological shields around the reactor so I suppose those Bear Sailors glowed green, at least for a short time. And none of those Bear Sailors had to worry about career paths either as I doubt they lived much beyond a year, at best. So yes, the Soviets were mighty sloppy about rad hazards and that price will be paid for a long time, a very long time. One of the crummy things NI wanted was samples of Soviet sub sewage, sooooooooo, when they?d flush the holding tank; we could hear that on the hydro for sure, we?d go looking for dumps to come floating up. And sure enough, they were RAD hot. Uck and double uck, real 007 stuff, huh. Aarrgg!!

Scamp

[Boats]

Scamp,

Being a sailor I respect anyone whose been at sea for any length of time. I used to party with the Aussey's and the Korean's and the Japanese. I've even run into a few Russian's. And every time I did we always had good times together.

I've never met a really bad sailor in any branch that I didn't relate to. The Russian's though they were our enemy in the Cold War erra I really hate to see such a waste of good sailors.

You would think their government would have taken better care of their sailors/soldiers - what a waste.

Sure I would take up arms against them if push came to shove and it came close during the Bay of Pig's but now that we are all sorta having better relations I look back and see just how bad they were treated.

Like I tell others if you were born and raised under those circumstances you know nothing else until someone tells you or you leard for yourself. I wonder how many of them are bitter now because of the issues now at hand. Look at their Space Program - shoe string budgets and borderlined safety.

Makes you glad you were in our Navy rather than theirs.

[Keith_Hixson]

Again its mix emotion time.

If they hadn't used some form of gas and didn't adhere to the demands of the terrorists, the terrorists would have certainly blown themselves up along with the everyone else and the building.

Using the gas probably saved lots of lives. But who knows, it may have been resolved peaceably, I personally doubt it.

But, the use of gas of anykind seems so barbarious to me and most folks. Yet when dealing with radical Muslims you must take extreme measures.

I would also think that a simple blood test could have told you what the agent was they use. (Probably don't have that type of sophisticated equipment in Russia.)

This will be debated for years to come.

Keith

[Boats]

Keith,

I'm not against the actions the Russian's took rather the planning aspects of what happen after the fact. If they knew this gas was going to be so affective they should have made plans for casualities and had the Doctor's ready with the antidotes.

Prices have to be paid to maintain the peace. I know that and yes it always isn't pretty. The poor civy caught in the middle and having little if any training can't really protect themselves against terror like that.

The gas being oderless and tasteless is what took them all out. It had to be quick or they would have surely taken out the building and the people in the process.

It saved lives yes I agree but many more could have been saved had they made better plans. For every action there is a reaction this is what we saw. Those in power and those who authorize these practices must be held accountable to a point.

I'm sure someone will be out looking for a job when all this is finally ironed out.

[Seascamp]

Here is a story from the book ?The Threat? and a statement as just how poorly the Russian Soldiers were treated. This saga takes place during the early 80?s in northwestern Soviet Union at one of the AA missile installations. The Solders went on strike because of a horrid meal and refused to budge until a proper meal was served. The issue was live worms in the fish being served. The Officer in charge had a look at things, orders a new meal prepared and then promptly pulls his pistol and shoots the leader of the strike. As a matter of course, Officers pilfered the solders foodstuffs and replaced worthy things with spoiled food items and this was a well-known racket in the Red Army. New conscripts expected to be horribly treated, cruelly deprived and stolen from as it was an institutional mind-set and presumably part of ?serving?. But some Ivan was hungry, called a strike and was killed for the effort. Somehow, that just figures, it just figures.

Scamp