A different view

[Andy]

Picnic?s were the order of the day over the weekend. We went to one which included several college professors. One of the guys there was a Chinese fellow named Yanle (Yohn?-le). The guy had a degree in agriculture in China, came to the US for his PHD in Aggie and sort of defected. Now he is a professor.
Someone of the liberal persuasion pointed me out and said, ?He (me) killed people in Vietnam?. Yanle immediately walked over, shook my hand, smiled that Asian smile and said you killed Vietnamese? Told him that was very probable. He thanked me?
I told him his government didn?t want the US to take over Vietnam. He said his government wanted the war to last forever, US controlling all of south east Asia would be bad, Vietnam controlling that area would be and is just as bad. He thought that was very sad and wished we had keep Hanoi in the box called North Vietnam.
The guy is very prejudice. The Japanese are the worst people in the world, a flawed race. But the Vietnamese are just a half step below the Japanese on the bad guy list. I asked if this was an opinion he developed in the US. He said no, that all Chinese students are taught much more history than Americans and his people know all about the terrible behavior of other countries. They also are taught about how the US helped China in WWII but that we hated Chairman Mao so we had bad relations for many years.
We had fun talking about the Rape of Nanking (WWII). Also talked about the Opium Wars. But he kept going back to Vietnam and smiling about the 2 million that we killed. Some of the other professor?s had never seen this side of Yanle and there freaking out. Damn I enjoyed that!
Sometimes I really believe we are already forgotten, in our school systems, the Vietnam war is either talked about in a negative way or not at all. It?s nice to know we are remembered somewhere. There are a billion Chinese who think we?re cool but arrogant. He may have been confused when I agreed, ?Hell yes we?re arrogant!?

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Seascamp]

That is a bit different. I do a lot of work with the PRC these days as they are refurbishing a lot of their power plants but I don?t get into political discussions unless they initiate the discussion and thus far, they haven?t had much to say about all that. As time presses forth I think they are growing further away from Communism to their own version of free market capitalism but will do things at their own pace. Currently I have a project going for the Vietnamese Gaoan power plant. The PRC is the main contractor and PRC?s Harbin Turbine works will be supplying the main turbo generator. Anyway, I can tell there isn?t a lot of love lost and a few times I have gotten e-mails from Vietnam requesting that I tell something to Harbin or ask Harbin for some data to send to the Vietnamese. Sort of a ringmaster role I suppose and it feels weird at times. Kind of like ?what?s wrong with this picture.?
Sound like you had a productive and interesting conversation. Thanks for sharing. `

Scamp

[Packo]

Only white southern males are prejudiced. I think you made this story up!

How interesting but if you remember, the minute the Vietnam war was over, China invaded Vietnam. Ancient enemies. The Vietnamese looked down their noses at Bodians, Laotians and Thais also. They feared Koreans.

I am not prejudiced against anybody cause' I can't stand anybody! I hate all equally.



Packo

[Seascamp]

If memory serves, I believe China occupied the area of contemporary Vietnam for around a thousand years and were fairly brutal in terms of maintaining control. There is a Cambodian family that lives in our town and I know that they just go ballistic when they see a Vietnamese person. So I?d guess that everyone in that area has an axe to grind and heads to chop off. In Singapore they go at each other with hammer and tongs over speaking Mandarin or Cantonese. Not a big problem for me as I listen to both languages fluently and don?t understand a damn word either one of them say. That makes things go a lot easier for sure.

Scamp

[exlrrp]

I think one of the most amazing things Ive discovered about the Vietnam War was that at the start the Chinese WANTED a divided Vietnam, maybe more than we did. That is the way China has dominated it's neighbors for centuries, divide and conquer.The Chinese have little love for the Vietnamese and their leaders, Chou Enlai in particular, considered Ho to be a yahoo and loose cannon that was dragging them into another war with the US. They were not ready for this in the early 50s, especially after taking a million casualties in Korea.
That is why Chou Enlai sat Ho down and busted his balls to take the deal cut at th Geneva Convention in 1954. Ho did not want to take the deal, his radical elements were telling him to shove it. The VietMinh wanted Hue and the 15th parallell as the dividing line in the deal which it was not--the 17th parallell was what they got, althogh they were the batttlefield winner, holding 10s of thousands of French prisoners.
Ho took this, grinding his teeth because with the deal came unifying elections in 1956, where he would be the clear winner and he would regain control of the whole country, which he'd had in 1945 and 46.
This should have been the end of the story--a united Vietnam with internationally supervised elections but Our ultra conservaftive government, (especially the Dulles Brothers) so narrowminded they were unable to see nuances and differences in different Communist governments, absolutely would not recognize any Communist government to deal with them. I mean is that one of the hugest examples of conservatives sticking their heads uptheir....--well in the sand anyway-- or what???
Dulles refused to meet with Chou Enlai, absolutely glared the man down with hand extended because just to say howdy to the man would have been too much for him. Another fine example of Mau Mau Conservative political tactics no doubt.
(Do you think Dulles thought Chou was just a dumbass g**k? I mean Dulles was one of those extremely tightass Ivy League politicians, and a bigot, no doubt--he didn't come from the South, either, surprise, surprise. But our country, inspite of all its' bullsht, has never supported independence of colonised people if they were not white and the colonizers were. Is that a huge coincidence or what?)
So Dulles just mumped around in Geneva, rattling sabers, hardly leaving the luxury hotel while Bedell Smith did the watercarrying--Smith even helped draft the Geneva Accords which Dulles knew we were going to violate allready. Is that some more conservative humor or what? Oh you guys!!!! gosh you guys are twisted.
So although "we"--I mean Dulles--agreed in writing not to overturn the Geneva Agreements by force, "we"--I mean the Ike administration-- started violating them literally as the ink was drying--whheeeee more conservative governance here, some real wacky funsters. How do these people get into office, anyway? (ans: very wealthy)

Meanwhile, Chou meets Ho and tells him to take the deal or no more rice balls coming down the pike for him. Ho took it because the north needed the respite after fighting a long war with the French and was sure that all he had to do to win the election was light a Camel cigarette (his favorite) and wait for the returns to roll in.
When Dulles told Diem to completely blow off the Geneva Agreements that a long hard war had been fought for--those zany conservatives again-- and cancel the elections Chou again counseled Ho to wait and try and negotiate (Diem would not negotiate) This was the main reason that the North did not start supporting the NLF in the South untill 1961, China kept the lid on them and wanted them to keep negotiating. It was the US ramping up the war that brought China in out of self preservation--they feared a US invasion of the DRV and were getting ready for it--it would have been a bloodbath.

About prejudice and the Chinese. I was once engaged to a Chinese girl, about a year after I ETSed. Her parents could not stand the idea of her marying a nonCHinese, it helped to brak up the relationship.
I don't think racial prejudice was so much of a Southern thing as a conservative thing--you can't believe in it and be a liberal (supposedly--theres a lot of notable exceptions here, starting with Jefferson and Lincoln).Strom Thurmond in the early 50s we're talking about here would be the poster boy for racial prejudice and white supremacy--it's what he called himself, what he ran for president on.--, but he wasn't the only one by far and white supremacy ruled throughout the land--I'm ashamed to say one of Thurmond's mainest supporters in th fight against integration was Sen Knowland of CA (surprise!! conservative).I notice that theyre not runing lifestory tributes to old Strom on FoX (or any other channel) Gee, I wonder why not, he was such a great representative of consrvatism, I'lll almost miss him. They sure like to spend ,more time on Sharpton, don't they? They say old Strom changed his ways but he denied it to the day he died.

At any rate with people like Dulles, MAcarthy, Thurmond and J Edgar Hoover running the country, our leaders completely missed the chance to have China as our ally in the fight to divide Vietnam, largely through pigheaded stupidity and racial prejudice.
I'd like to say End of Story here but unfortunately not.
We're all responsible for this--the part that the liberals fcked up comes in later

James

Happy just to be alive

[SuperScout]

Great story, and glad to read about how some of the liberals got their pucker factor all wadded. But what you did about opening up the gates of historical revisionism may not be so laudable. Having a free an open election when communists are involved is about as plausible and possible as having Jeffrey Dahlmer as the Guest of Honor in the Tenderloin district in San Francisco. And calling Ike conservative is akin to calling Madonna a virgin. Ah, but the paintbrushes of liberals are noted for their paucity of discernment. That fact shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, as most liberals are pseudo-compassionate, and phonier than a 3-dollar bill, toting around more bigotry than ever imagined in a small Southern town.

[sn-e3]

Now S.S. don't go a pokin a branding Iron on all Liberals. Not that I concider myself a liberal I concider myself a thinker but I do have my qualms about both partys. Since out friend Clinton got NAFTA and the WTO going all I've seen is our jobs going overseas. But don't get me wrong since Bush got to be president I've noticed that corporate corruption is everywhere the corpations are using any excuse to shread our jobs and make a huge profit. The standard of living is dropping at an alarming rate. sure a few still live high on the hog but way too many people are using plastic to try and keep up. Whoa get a grip america using plastic is leading us right back to the days of the company store after paying 3 to 4 times the value of your purchases after intrest. a 25 dollor shirt would cost you about 80 dollars by the time you paid it off. the only way to win is pay cash or pay off the card every month. Both party's take HUGE money from corperate america so guess who's side they are on Surprise its not yours

[Andy]

Ike was a conservative? He appointed two of the most liberal judges in the history of the Supreme Court. Remember back in the 60s it changed so cops most always needed a search warrant even when it made no sense? Remember, ?You have the right to remain silent? and all that? Ike?s judges were responsible for those things and lots more. During his term in office the 82nd Airborne was sent into Little Rock to protect black kids so they could go to school with whites. Conservative???

As far as diplomacy, he was Euro-centric. A place like Indo-China he could have given a damn about it. What he was concerned with was France and keeping what was left of Europe free from communism. We helped the French in south east Asia, then took on a larger role but don?t you remember that the entire world viewed the U.S.A. Vs. U.S.S.R as the center piece of all foreign affairs? Communism, it turns out, was not a monolith, neither were the democracies and dictators who opposed it. Looking back 50 years we can Monday morning quarterback but that?s a lot different from being in that time and place. Do you remember how Ike got lambasted by the true conservatives for not doing something about Castro? Yes the Dulles boys were responsible for the Bay of Pigs and several other bad ideas. Kennedy was responsible for okaying that plan then pulling back the air and naval support they were supposed to get. Was that Kennedy being liberal, conservative or dumb?

Now let?s talk about the ??tight ass Ivy League?. All the Kennedy?s, Clintons, Al Gore, etc. are Ivy League people. LBJ?s Great Society was based on the sociological writing of two guys named Cloward and Owland. Ideas that JFK proposed and LBJ was able to get through congress after the assassination. (The Ivy League gave us AFDC, Food Stamps, welfare for teenaged girls, legal abortion, etc.) JFK and LBJ also gave us the Vietnam War, they were Democrats right, so was that a liberal or conservative thing? Is this some sort of California thing, to think the Ivy League is tight assed = conservative? Several years ago Mikhail Gorbachov visited Boston and did a symposium at the Kennedy Center, part of Harvard. After listening to him for a week a large number of professors from Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. came to the opinion he was a reactionary and was a sell out who damaged the socialist movement. Would that be the opinion of a tight ass?

I?d suggest that the anti-Vietnam war movement didn?t start in California, it started in the Ivy League schools. Black studies departments, Woman?s studies departments, the call for Nixon?s impeachment, in large part, where did they start? Are gay marriages legal in California or are Ivy League alumni making those decisions here in the northeast? My state is managed by the Ivy League. We are sometimes called Taxachusetts, why? It?s all about the re-distribution of wealth, a conservative idea? To state that the Ivy League is anything but leaning to the far left, Very Liberal, is way out of line.

Have other issues with some of your other comments but this is too long and I?d like to hear your reply.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Keith_Hixson]

Prejudice,

It is an ugly animal, but bigotry is worse.

Tribalism as seen around the world is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry put together.

Asian hating various other tribes and nationalities of Asians. Tribalism is Africa is the greatest source war in Africa and the source of most Africa's problems. This tribe hates that tribe, etc and war for control.

It seems we need this form of prejudice to get our self-worth. So in America we do the same thing politically. Liberals believe they are intellectually superior to Conservatives. Conservatives believe that Liberals are half-wits that allow emotional idealism rule their lives rather than the facts and spin everything with rose colored glasses.

But, it seems we enjoy putting others down and therefore building up our own self-esteem. Sad way of getting self-esteem by hating others. But it seems to be a human epidemic world-wide. And we write it off has CULTURAL differences when in reality it is a form of bigotry that we all participate in once in awhile.

___

Paco,

At least your honest. Anyway if I can like and enjoy my friends gimpy and exlrrp you might be able show a little love.


Keith

P.S. I still love ya James!

[MORTARDUDE]

The hatred, prejudice, and racism between the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Laotians, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Thais, Tibetans, Pakistanis, Indians, and others, not to mention religious persecution among Hindus, Muslims and don't forget the caste system, is as brutal and much more pervasive than slavery ever was in our country......

It is fascinating to watch all of the documentaries on the Discovery channel and others about the "superiority" of the Greeks, Romans, and European civilization, when the achievements of the Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, and the Indian sub-continent were as important and in many cases before the
European civilized world....

Just rambling...

Larry