Just a question about the state on the left side

[BLUEHAWK]

Scout -
As Scamp might say, "Exacraly!"

Recall is a form of direct democracy, and it cuts both ways. Which is why so few states allow it... preferring instead gerrymandering, closed primaries and the electoral college

[blues clues]

Scout,one thing I've got to say about the right when they finely finish this recall the people of the golden state will have been sold a bag of crap by the right but at least they will have a new governor talk about a power grab.
razz

[Seascamp]

I recognize that its to early to tell, but I?m curious as to what the platforms for solving the California financial issues are going to be all about. Thus far it all looks like the usual political, partisan Brownian motion of all heat and no light. I just caught the end of the jet blast, but it seems that the California Attorney General got all over Gray Davis about the ?Pukey? conduct of his political campaigns and states wanting nothing more to do with that stuff. So it appears that fraternity has seen better times or there is fratricidal dog piling going on, who knows. Meanwhile back at the ranch, Arne is catching all kinds of flack from California?s conservative Repo wing, so that seems to be another fraternal struggle playing out.

But hey wait a sec folks, I thought the financial ship of state has taken a full torpedo spread, is down by the bow and listing heavily to starboard. It seems to me that if that isn?t addressed, then all this stupid political maneuvering is nothing but an expensive exercise in whacking off mud turtles.

Now I see that the ACLU is trying to postpone the recall process citing obsolete voting machinery. I just wonder how many bucking broncos can be in the arena at the same time before the whole thing goes unstable and flies around like a released balloon.

Scamp

[SuperScout]

You keep bringing up those dastardly things like gerrymandering, closed primaries, and the electoral college like some tired, stale mantra. What on earth does a provision in the US Constitution, e.g., the electoral college, have to do with the sorry state of affairs in California? And what is so evil about closed primaries? Do non-stockholders of IBM, for example, get to vote on the new board of directors? Or do the Board of Directors of IBM get to vote on the CEO of Exxon? It's called closed societies, organizations, companies, and political parties for a very good reason. Your continual citing of this red herring is akin to the judical ruling the ACLU tried to obtain concerning the Boy Scouts of America, when the BSA stated that they didn't want to have homosexuals as leaders. It's a private organization, and no court, no law, no judical thug should be allowed to coerce them to change.

And razz, a careful and quick review of the news from CA will reveal to you that there are lots of Independents, Democrats, and yes, gasp, Republicans, who have voted to have this recall election. For you to try to paint it simply as a GOP power grab is naive, ill-informed, or worse.

[BLUEHAWK]

No offense intended Scout, and none taken.

Those three things I keep mentioning, keep being mentioned because they keep coming to mind in these forums. Everyone always complains that complainers never offer solutions, so those three things would be my first suggestion for a better American way of government; following several decades of serious and informed consideration, love of country and frustration.

What they have to do with California today is that a Recall election is a form of direct democracy. The people believe we live in a democracy, and we do, of sorts. But it is also a constitutional Republic, and that is how one candidate can receive more votes of the people and another candidate be put into office, as you know. Citizens whose desire it was to replace a governor have now expressed the better part of that dissatisfaction.

Likewise with closed primaries. The people want to vote for the best person for the job, regardless of the party they are registered with. We do not appreciate having our votes channeled for party purposes, especially when the parties are so very effective in excluding other voices (unless they have as much money as Ross Perot, or as many bodies as Ralph Nader), and we REALLY really really do not appreciate that during debates so many candidates are excluded by the two-party system (which does NOT appear anywhere in our constitution), and we have really really really gotten very very tired of sham national conventions and unfulfilled platforms every four years. One person, one vote... and we'd like the vote to count fair and square. Also, many americans stay away from the polls because there is a justifiable sense among people that the fix is in before the votes are counted, and that the fix depends on who has the most money and where they got it from. So, most of us are not pleased with choosing amongst the lesser-of-two-evils either, and having people in office who earned tiny percentages of eligible votes (all of whom thereafter claim to have been given a "mandate"). Some of us believe that one way to increase the numbers voting would be to reform the voting systems, and a good place to begin would be with those three stale and very tired mantras... none of which has yet to be tried in the modern era, and all of which most politicians fear worse than the devil. Many a time in my adult life I would have much preferred voting for a democrat in the primary, or for an independent of some kind, and was prevented.

The difference between IBM and the american election process is that IBM can go out of business tomorrow and only a few thousand people will suffer. If america goes out of business, tens of millions will suffer, all over the world. The american government is not a private organization nor a closed society... or is it.

Some of us believe quite sincerely that america HAS become a private organization. Eliminating the electoral college, closed primaries and gerrymandering would put an end to that, the playing field would be leveler, and a chance for justice would exist. It is preferable to anarchy, or to the intractable status quo which is described in livid detail from all standpoints on these many pages every day.

Those who are well off and in power today would not be much inconvenienced by such a useful reform, and indeed might be relieved of the constant harangues of an extremely disenfranchised majority.

[blues clues]

Scout,naive I'm not, maybe ill-informed I might be from what I've read in the news papers it was a Republican who put 2 million dollars of his own money to get this recall started.Scout you are a little ill-informed the people of California have not voted for the recall yet that takes place oct.7. All I'm saying is it's a joke out there, and heard something last night that california's credit rating is at junk bond level don't know about you but that ant good,and all these people in calif. hear from arney is that he's going to pump them up, That's why I said that it was a GOP power grab. A republican started it.
razz

[BLUEHAWK]

Go on ahead Blues, go right on ahead... but then, you did not need me to encourage you.

The other Blue

[SuperScout]

I do believe that you missed the point of my methaphor of IBM and Exxon: stockholders of one corporation do not get to vote for directors of the other, and I personally can find little value in changing the rules that allow for open primaries. If I'm acting in an informed manner for my political party, I'm helping to select the most qualified candidates; why should I give aid and comfort to the other political party? Are they not capable of doing the same thing, for their political persuasion? Laudy yes, I think so. To try to form us into one large homogenous mass is too revolting to contemplate. Your rather cavalier regard for the US Constitution seems more akin to the anarchy you fear; men of renowned genius formed that glorious body of words, and the results of 2000, for some people, is still a gauling lump they can't seem to swallow.

razz: are you resentful of the fact that somebody has the money (the sum keeps growing with each news report about how Issa spent his own (gasp!!) $$ to fund the petition process? Are you aware of the fact that the California legislature passed a law to let this sort of process occur? Where is your condemnation of them? And who's to blame that CA's bond rating is in the toilet? Your Democrat party buddies who spent the state into financial oblivion is the answer, in case you can't think of the proper response. The good folks of CA haven't voted yet, duh, but guess what: ol' Grey-out may be out of work shortly. You still haven't made your point.

[blues clues]

Scout as far as being resentful of people with money BOY did you miss the mark on that one, you see when I look at people I don't look at their bank account or the kind of car they drive, what I look at is the kind of person they are what are their idae's on life in general. I could care a big rat ass what their political views are evidently that's what you look at. AS far as ol Gray could care less I don't live in Calif. thank God it's just more ways of wasting the tax payers money. I hope you have a nice day col.

razz

[BLUEHAWK]

Hi Scout -

- You COULD give aid an comfort to the other party if you believed it were in the best interest of America.
- Those men of reknown genius who created the Constitution, they made several major errors.
- Almost nobody I know gives a damn about who is President or how they got into office.
- The one large homogeneous lump we are is Americans.
- Better the "anarchy" we know than the "anarchy" we don't know.


What we care most about is our people and our country.