700 pages of Military Records?

[Arrow]

Frisco Tom,

I will have to disagree with you in regard to past actions of anyone regardless if they are running for office or not.We could not know our own history or the history of nations if we did not look at the past.

The key to me is while we were living what is now ourhistory as individuals andnationswere there lessons learned? If wecan'tlook back and examine our ownhistory as individuals and nations howcan we judge what lessons we have learned or what progress we have made?

It seems a most unwise thing to me to take any man or woman topreside over us or even to wed without knowing something about their past history and asking if their present conduct shows they have learned from their mistakes.

The above just asmall bit of wisdom learned (the hard way)from my own history....

Arrow>>>>>>>>

[39mto39g]

The president is not a so-called anything, he is your president, He has a honorable discharge, are you questioning honorable discharges, The United Staes of America decided he fulfilled his obligation and was given an Honorable discharge, He dosn't have to show any records at all, just show that peace of paper. If the democrats don't like it tuff shit. Guard and Reserve units are ok by me, so are sea-bees and coast guard, and merchant Marines. You may want to preach to some democrats somewhere.

Ron

[BLUEHAWK]

Skeeter, not to make too fine a point of it, but sayingone does not want to be infantry and would rather fly is not the same as sayingone intends to avoid combat... in fact I believe the President recently acknowledged (as would all Reserve and Guard units) that being called into active combat zones is all but inevitable... or must be regarded that way.

I don't know as I could go as far as to say that he did not want to give his life for our country though... at least based on what information I have now, in fact the opposite. I dunno what a champagne unit is... maybe that's my naiveness. If I recall correctly, flying ANY military aircraft is not exactly the same as sleeping in late.

[BLUEHAWK]

p.s.

Both Bush and Kerry enlisted.

[Gimpy]

One of them for the "right" reasons............and one of them for the "wrong" reasons. History and "common sense" will determine the "facts" of those "reasons". I have all the respect in the world for those individuals who "joined" for the "right" reasons"........absolutely NONE WHATSOEVER for the ones who joined (and went AROUND others who could have joined BTW) for the "wrong" reasons.

Kinda like what THIS fellow had to say!

#######


February 13, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Bush's Duty, and Privilege
By BOB HERBERT

James Moore, an author and former Texas television reporter who has spent many years following the fortunes of George W. Bush, often tells the story of a gifted high school athlete from Flint, Mich., named Roy Dukes.

"I ran track against him," Mr. Moore said. "He went to Flint Southwestern High School, and he was amazing."

That was back in the late 1960's. When Roy Dukes strode onto the track for an event, said Mr. Moore, he drew everyone's attention, especially other athletes'. "They stopped their warm-ups or whatever they were doing to watch him because he was just phenomenal."

Mr. Moore lost track of Mr. Dukes for a couple of years. "And then I come home from college one weekend and I open up the paper and there's Roy's picture. He was killed in Vietnam. I was just flabbergasted."

Mr. Moore explores the murky circumstances surrounding President Bush's service in the National Guard in the late 60's and early 70's in a book that is soon to be published called "Bush's War for Re-election."

This issue remains pertinent because it foreshadowed Mr. Bush's behavior as a politician and officeholder: the lack of engagement, the irresponsibility, and the casual and blatantly unfair exploitation of rank and privilege.

Mr. Bush favored the war in Vietnam, but he had the necessary clout to ensure that he wouldn't have to serve there. He entered the Texas Air National Guard at the height of the war in 1968 by leaping ahead of 500 other applicants who were on a waiting list. Mr. Bush was eventually assigned to the 147th Fighter Group (later to become part of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Group), which Mr. Moore described in his book as a "champagne" outfit. "The ranks," he said, "were filled with the progeny of the wealthy and politically influential."

So here's the thing: After strolling to the head of the line, and putting the Guard to the considerable expense of training him as a pilot, Lieutenant Bush didn't even bother to take his duties seriously. He breezed off to Alabama to work on a political campaign. He never showed up as required to take his annual flight physical in 1972, and because of that was suspended from flying.

This cavalier treatment of his duties as a Guardsman occurred as thousands of others were being killed and wounded in Vietnam ? youngsters of great promise like Roy Dukes, who was 20 when he died. Having escaped the horror of the war himself, one might have expected Lieutenant Bush to at least take his duties in the National Guard seriously.

Now, more than three decades later, there are questions about the seriousness of Mr. Bush's stewardship as president. He has certainly been profligate with the people's money, pushing through his reckless tax cuts and running up a mountain range of deficits that extends as far as the eye can see.

Citing phantom weapons of mass destruction, he led the nation into a war of choice that has resulted so far in the tragic deaths of more than 500 American troops and thousands of innocent Iraqis, and the wounding of thousands upon thousands of others.

Like Mr. Bush during Vietnam, privileged Americans have had the luxury of favoring the madness in Iraq without having to worry about fighting and dying there. If the sons and daughters of the wealthy and powerful were in danger of being sent to Iraq, the U.S. wouldn't be there.

Neither Congress nor the American people are being told in a timely way how much this war is costing. But powerfully connected corporations like Halliburton and Bechtel have been kept deep inside the loop and favored with lucrative no-bid contracts for their services.

Mr. Bush has been nothing if not consistent. He has always been about the privileged few. And that's an attitude that flies in the face of the basic precepts of an egalitarian society. It's an attitude that fosters, that celebrates, unfairness and injustice.

More than 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam, another war of choice that was marketed deceitfully to the American people.
Mr. Bush's experience in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam years is especially relevant today because it throws a brighter spotlight on who he really is. He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way.

#############

######

[skeeter]

My Mother said many times, "If you look in the mirrow, and you do not see yourself, God did not give you a face that you could show the world." My Mother would say that about that "so-called" draft dodger..

Now I would bet my life, some here would not know what that means...

I would like to take this time to say. I'm proud we have the National Guard, and any other military branch of service. But I have a greater feeling for those that served in conbat for their country. I had three brothers serve in WWll, one came back with part of his body mangled from two ships sinking from under him, and I and another brother served in Korea, and I and my younger brother serve in Vietnam. Of all the my brothers who fought for their country, Gene the youngest did not return alive from Vietnam. Now you know why I have the lowest regards for a person from Texas that hid out on a "mesquite ranch, smoking pekote, and drinking firewater." when he could have went to combat like.."little sparrow" husband, and her brother did, only to return and suffer the horrows of "agentr orange".. How many of you have witness the pain and suffering of agent orange and the lost of limbs from those that came back from 'Nam, and never have the opportunity to live a normal life in the country they fought for? HOW MANY?

I'm also pleased to hear of David who served in Desert Storm and his father who retired from the Navy, and Bluehawk who served, and Frisco-Kid who paid his part for his country. If I missed anyone here, please except my apology..

I have a son who is a Major in the Army National Guard, who is serving now at Fort McCoy, Wis. Been there over 16 months from his job, which he has lost due to this Texas thinking we need more oil to make him and his family richer.

Gimpy, I think God may have been standing behind you when you made the post.. You said it very well and to the point.

And to the question about the "Honorable Discharge" he suppose to have received. I think I will order one from the Internet and send GWB just in case he may "have not" received one.

[39mto39g]

Skeeter?
You know what an honorable discharge is? You say your retired Navy, you sound like your 12 years old.

[skeeter]

I think we have someone here who didn't get the "face in the mirrow" picture.
Oh Yes! I know what a "Honorable Discharge" is.. I also have one..
After 24 years in the Navy, I would think everyone would be entitled to one..

But minds reads different than the Texan in the White House reads.

Mine at the bottom says..

THIS CERTIFICATE IS AWARDED AS A TESTINOMIAL OF HONEST AND FAITHFUL SERVICE.

About your 12 year old comment. When I was 12 years old, I had already exceeded beyond my expections.

[39mto39g]

And his says, "THIS CERTIFICATE IS AWARDED AS A TESTINOMIAL OF HONEST AND FAITHFUL SERVICE" if Skeeter says its ok.


and

"About your 12 year old comment. When I was 12 years old, I had already exceeded beyond my expections"

Ron

[blues clues]

skeeter I for one don't give a big rat's butt what a person did 30 years ago,there I've said that now I feel better. but let's look at this person record in the past three years, the taken away of the rights for overtime for workers,and just in general taken away the rights of the people of this country. when you give up your rights for secunity you get nether.
razz