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  #21  
Old 02-15-2004, 07:18 AM
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Each time one reads about what a President, or other leader, "has done TO, or FOR, 'the people' ", I am reminded again that none of it (or very very little) could possibly have taken place without the approval of Congress, and a passing of muster in the Judiciary.

That is just simply how it works as we all know. Leadership is just that, but nothing happens without a WHOLE lot of other support... public and private.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-2004, 07:19 AM
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Default Coupla Comments

After initially enlisting in the Texas Army National Guard, I later applied and successfully completed OCS at Ft Benning School for Boys and Other Wayward Children. Back home to a Selected Reserve Force (SRF), we were subject to federalization by the President, like any other Guard unit, to sent to wherever the DoD needed. As a matter of fact, some national guard units were activated, an engineer unit from Iowa comes to mind, and sent to Vietnam. But LBJ, too busy trying to micro-manage everything else, and too concerned about his political future, which was zero, relied on the corrupted draft system to fill the ranks as needed. My two tours in Vietnam, served voluntarily, are testimony enough.

What I find truly amazing is how some are attempting to assess a degree of fitness, honesty, truthfulness, value, or weight on a person's Honorable Discharge form. If a person got one, they got one, and anybody trying to denigrate another's Honorable Discharge form is pure childishness, like whores arguing about virtue. Are the two Purple Hearts I was awarded any more or any less significant than anyone else's Purple Hearts? I think not! In fact, it's downright dishonorable to impugn the value of another's certificate or award, implying it was obtained under false pretenses. Frankly, I doubt that any commentator on this site has seen the President's certificate, much less knows what printed on the bottom of it; any presumption to the contrary is specious. Since it has now been established that Bush fulfilled his military obligations, we certainly can argue about how dangerous his service was or not, but not denigrate the man. Frankly, knowing what I do about F102's and their predisposition to fall out of the sky, I'd rather stick with my ACAV in the Delta.

And the last time I had a reality check, the war in Iraq was and is not over oil. To assert otherwise is such a sophmoric and inane canard, seemingly unfit to be uttered by intelligent people.

Next month, we'll bid safe tour to son #2, who's deploying with a unit of the 1st Cav. I've done the best I can to mentor him, to pass on whatever morsels of wisdom I gleaned from being in combat, and made covenant with him that he would be remembered and prayed for daily. Turning the matter over to the care of God, as I undertand Him, is the best solace I can find.
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  #23  
Old 02-15-2004, 07:24 AM
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I believe our guys not affectionately named the F102 the "Lead Sled"... which pretty much says what there is to say about how its airworthiness was regarded by some experienced fighters.

If memory has served well, of all the aircraft I have been around, next to, worked on, seen fly... the Sled is one which would create a pucker factor if I had to actually pull back on that stick with the engine running.
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Old 02-15-2004, 08:56 AM
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Default Razz, SS, BH

BH, Pesidents can do very little without congress, and congress can do what ever it wants, even if the president vetos, Congress can just over ride the veto. You are so very correct.

SS
You are also coorect, For someone to question a Honorable discharge paper, Is why I sujested he be 12. (Skeeter)
The people that put there name on the bottom might have a thing or two to say about if its real or not. I think his grandpa was retired Navy. Either that or I would sure pitty the guys that had to serve with a mind like that?

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  #25  
Old 02-15-2004, 09:41 AM
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My apologies to the Delta Dagger... it was the F-105 that was known as the "Lead Sled" or "Thud"...
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Old 02-15-2004, 10:01 AM
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ron I meant to put security.
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Old 02-15-2004, 11:09 AM
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Default Well, well

Where to start?

First of all, Bush evaded service in Vietnam, as did Cheney, while still supporting the war. And as with the Iraq war, Bush is allowing other young men and women of less "rank" and "privilege" to be sent into harms way.

This is the number one thing to remember in providing context to the National Guard issue .

Right now, hundreds of American soldiers are dying and thousands are being wounded in a war that was sold to Americans on a shifting desert sand of lies.

Most of the men who are responsible for sending our brave young men off to die were themselves cowards in my opinion, (Chickenhawks) who supported the Vietnam War, but instead allowed other young men to be wounded and possibly die in their places.

The top two Chickenhawks, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, had different excuses to explain the yellow streaks down their backs. Dick Cheney said he was too busy to go to Vietnam, he had "other priorities".... George W. Bush said he was too busy patrolling the skies of Texas. The reality is that both of them spent most of the Vietnam War boozing themselves up.

In memory of the young men in Vietnam who died in combat so that George and Dick could save their hides and guzzle down the booze, I am posting the following.

Here are the young men from Midland, Texas, (Bush's hometown) who died in Vietnam while George W. Bush stayed in Texas and "sometimes" in Alabama afraid to go to war:


(1) LASTNAME: CUTBIRTH FIRSTNAME: KENDELL DWAYNE IDNO: 1912851 SVC: M COMP: R RANK: SSG GRADE: E6 MOS: 0369 AGE: 23 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19670225 CAS1: A1 CAS2: G CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 01 LSVC: 06 BIRDATE: 19430429 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: ------ PANL: 15E LINE: 089 REFNO: 2287 PDATE: 6702

(2) LASTNAME: DYER FIRSTNAME: IRBY III IDNO: 458709452 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SGT GRADE: E5 MOS: 91B40 AGE: 23 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19661202 CAS1: A3 CAS2: B CAS3: 6 BODY: BNR CTRY: LA PROV: LZ LSVC: ** BIRDATE: 19430612 RACE: C REL: 99 MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 661202 PANL: 13E LINE: 004 REFNO: 133 PDATE: 6701

(3) LASTNAME: GUERRERO FIRSTNAME: ANDREW CASTRO IDNO: 449984505 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: CPL PP: + GRADE: E3 MOS: 11B10 AGE: 19 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19701217 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 02 LSVC: ** BIRDATE: 19510516 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 700619 PANL: 06W LINE: 127 REFNO: 28717 PDATE: 7012

(4) LASTNAME: HALL FIRSTNAME: BRUCE IDNO: 18742754 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 11B2P AGE: 19 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19671227 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 09 LSVC: 02 BIRDATE: 19480516 RACE: C REL: BO MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 671003 PANL: 32E LINE: 072 REFNO: 9539 PDATE: 6712

(5) LASTNAME: HODGES FIRSTNAME: RUFUS WELDON IDNO: 54388226 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 67V20 AGE: 21 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19690117 CAS1: C1 CAS2: B CAS3: 6 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 26 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19471017 RACE: C REL: BO MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680518 PANL: 34W LINE: 024 REFNO: 3232 PDATE: 6901

(6) LASTNAME: HOLLEY FIRSTNAME: GLYNN BYRON IDNO: 566821922 SVC: F COMP: R RANK: A1C GRADE: E3 MOS: ----- AGE: 20 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19691226 CAS1: C2 CAS2: L CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 11 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19490527 RACE: C REL: CC MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 691206 PANL: 15W LINE: 093 REFNO: 427 PDATE: 6912

(7) LASTNAME: LOPEZ FIRSTNAME: PAULINO GUTIERREZ IDNO: 54382708 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: PFC GRADE: E3 MOS: 11B10 AGE: 23 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19670722 CAS1: A2 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 25 LSVC: ** BIRDATE: 19440622 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 670501 PANL: 23E LINE: 106 REFNO: 7260 PDATE: 6707

(8) LASTNAME: MC KINNEY FIRSTNAME: CECIL CURTIS IDNO: 18728047 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SP5 GRADE: E5 MOS: 91B2P AGE: 22 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19681005 CAS1: A1 CAS2: I CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 02 LSVC: 02 BIRDATE: 19460926 RACE: C REL: BO MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 670520 PANL: 41W LINE: 014 REFNO: 17621 PDATE: 6810

(9) LASTNAME: NIEDECKEN FIRSTNAME: RAYMOND ALVIS IDNO: 2353821 SVC: M COMP: R RANK: PFC GRADE: E2 MOS: 0311 AGE: 20 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19671228 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 03 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19470812 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 671117 PANL: 32E LINE: 088 REFNO: 5441 PDATE: 6712

(10) LASTNAME: SATTERFIELD FIRSTNAME: HOWARD EUGENE IDNO: 525660321 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SP5 GRADE: E5 MOS: 94B20 AGE: 37 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19700829 CAS1: C2 CAS2: U CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 02 LSVC: ** BIRDATE: 19320909 RACE: C REL: 99 MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1
TOURD: 700219 PANL: 07W LINE: 023 REFNO: 5556 PDATE: 7008

(11) LASTNAME: SEGOVIA FIRSTNAME: RAUL LERMA IDNO: 54388602 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 11B20 AGE: 20 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19690130 CAS1: C1 CAS2: V CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 07 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19480330 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680909 PANL: 33W LINE: 022 REFNO: 3271 PDATE: 6901

(12) LASTNAME: SIMMONS FIRSTNAME: TRAVIS A JR IDNO: 7715206 SVC: N COMP: V RANK: HM3 GRADE: E4 MOS: HM3 AGE: 23 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19670316 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 05 LSVC: 02 BIRDATE: 19430827 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: ------ PANL: 16E LINE: 098 REFNO: 240 PDATE: 6703

(13) LASTNAME: STALL FIRSTNAME: WILLIAM ROBB IDNO: 2303522 SVC: M COMP: R RANK: LCPL GRADE: E3 MOS: 0846 AGE: 20 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19680118 CAS1: A1 CAS2: G CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 01 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19470214 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 670922 PANL: 34E LINE: 071 REFNO: 5613 PDATE: 6801

(14) LASTNAME: TAYLOR FIRSTNAME: SELVWYN RISHER IDNO: W3161245 SVC: A COMP: V RANK: WO GRADE: W1 MOS: 061B AGE: 31 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19690316 CAS1: C1 CAS2: B CAS3: 1 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 30 LSVC: 12 BIRDATE: 19371218 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680819 PANL: 29W LINE: 056 REFNO: 3435 PDATE: 6903

(15) LASTNAME: WATSON FIRSTNAME: GARY EUGENE IDNO: 54387872 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 11B20 AGE: 24 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19680403 CAS1: A1 CAS2: H CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 06 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19440318 RACE: C REL: CC MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 670725 PANL: 47E LINE: 057 REFNO: 12830 PDATE: 6804

(16) LASTNAME: ZONNE FIRSTNAME: ROBERT JOHN JR IDNO: 462620728 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: CPT GRADE: O3 MOS: 0200 AGE: 27 HOME: MIDLAND ST: TX CASDATE: 19700420 CAS1: C1 CAS2: B CAS3: 6 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 25 LSVC: 04 BIRDATE: 19420528 RACE: C REL: EP MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 690718 PANL: 11W LINE: 029 REFNO: 5085 PDATE: 7004


Here are young men from Casper, Wyoming, (Dick Cheney's hometown), who died in Vietnam while Cheney, who said that he had "important things" and "other priorities" that kept him from fighting for his beliefs:


(1) LASTNAME: BARNES FIRSTNAME: ROBERT EUGENE IDNO: 16915925 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 91B20 AGE: 20 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19680607 CAS1: A1 CAS2: G CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 27 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19480502 RACE: C REL: PB MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680102 PANL: 59W LINE: 019 REFNO: 15220 PDATE: 6806

(2) LASTNAME: BYERS FIRSTNAME: JERRY DUANE IDNO: 55874873 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 91B20 AGE: 20 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19670301 CAS1: A1 CAS2: E CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 23 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19460717 RACE: C REL: BO MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 660823 PANL: 15E LINE: 126 REFNO: 4983 PDATE: 6703

(3) LASTNAME: CARDENAS FIRSTNAME: LEROY ROBERT IDNO: 54905640 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: PFC GRADE: E3 MOS: 11B10 AGE: 23 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19690604 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 23 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19460511 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 690407 PANL: 23W LINE: 062 REFNO: 22646 PDATE: 6906

(4) LASTNAME: ENDICOTT FIRSTNAME: RICHARD LEROY IDNO: OF104722 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: CPT GRADE: O3 MOS: 1542 AGE: 25 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19680430 CAS1: A1 CAS2: E CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 42 LSVC: 02 BIRDATE: 19421114 RACE: C REL: LU MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680303 PANL: 53E LINE: 011 REFNO: 13624 PDATE: 6804

(5) LASTNAME: GROVE FIRSTNAME: ROBERT WOODROW IDNO: 306455 SVC: M COMP: R RANK: GSGT GRADE: E7 MOS: 0369 AGE: 47 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19650218 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 11 LSVC: 20 BIRDATE: 19170301 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: ------ PANL: 01E LINE: 092 REFNO: 13 PDATE: 6502

(6) LASTNAME: HANDY FIRSTNAME: WALTER ELMER IDNO: 54901810 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: PFC GRADE: E3 MOS: 64B20 AGE: 26 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19680313 CAS1: A1 CAS2: V CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 08 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19410927 RACE: C REL: AD MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 671216 PANL: 44E LINE: 036 REFNO: 12378 PDATE: 6803

(7) LASTNAME: HOLLAND FIRSTNAME: CARLTON JAKE IDNO: O2270112 SVC: A COMP: V RANK: CPT GRADE: O3 MOS: 82162 AGE: 36 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19650209 CAS1: A3 CAS2: H CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 99 LSVC: 18 BIRDATE: 19280531 RACE: C REL: BO MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: ------ PANL: 01E LINE: 086 REFNO: 200 PDATE: 6502

(8) LASTNAME: KASTNER FIRSTNAME: RICHARD THOMAS IDNO: 520563368 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: PFC GRADE: E3 MOS: 11B10 AGE: 20 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19691115 CAS1: A1 CAS2: G CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 14 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19490227 RACE: C REL: RC MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 690924 PANL: 16W LINE: 080 REFNO: 25172 PDATE: 6911

(9) LASTNAME: NIX FIRSTNAME: VERNON WALTER III IDNO: 16915371 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SSG PP: + GRADE: E5 MOS: 11B4P AGE: 19 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19680429 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 02 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19481216 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: M SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680402 PANL: 53E LINE: 003 REFNO: 14026 PDATE: 6805

(10) LASTNAME: PATRICK FIRSTNAME: DOUGLAS TYRONE IDNO: 55809144 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: PFC GRADE: E3 MOS: 11H10 AGE: 19 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19660806 CAS1: C1 CAS2: C CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 99 LSVC: 00 BIRDATE: 19460828 RACE: C REL: PN MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 660609 PANL: 09E LINE: 108 REFNO: 597 PDATE: 6608

(11) LASTNAME: REBERG FIRSTNAME: CHARLES WAYNE IDNO: 16914092 SVC: A COMP: R RANK: SGT PP: + GRADE: E4 MOS: 11C2P AGE: 20 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19680421 CAS1: A1 CAS2: H CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 02 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19471030 RACE: C REL: LU MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 671201 PANL: 51E LINE: 024 REFNO: 13662 PDATE: 6804

(12) LASTNAME: SWEENEY FIRSTNAME: RICHARD JOHN IDNO: 54903457 SVC: A COMP: Y RANK: SP4 GRADE: E4 MOS: 11B20 AGE: 21 HOME: CASPER ST: WY CASDATE: 19690223 CAS1: A1 CAS2: D CAS3: 7 BODY: --- CTRY: VS PROV: 22 LSVC: 01 BIRDATE: 19470904 RACE: C REL: LU MAR: S SEX: M CIT: 1 TOURD: 680623 PANL: 31W LINE: 025 REFNO: 19992 PDATE: 6902


Why is this important?? Because nothing more vividly illustrates the gap between the image of Bush and Cheney as "wise, seasoned leaders of a nation at war" than their cowardliness in supporting the Vietnam War while running from combat with a yellow streak down their backs. And, regardless of their "explanations" today, this IS the case!

Most Americans don't even know that Bush and Cheney, by using their position of "rank" & "privilige" allowed other young Americans to be wounded and some even die in their places. In large part, that's because Al Gore and the Democrats never made it an issue in the 2000 election, even though Gore was a Vietnam Veteran who volunteered for service. Gore was just not the kind of guy to make it an issue. That was a big mistake. It means that Gore lost the chance to define Bush as the phony, radical hypocrite that he really is.

The Bush/Cheney Vietnam evasion also plays a significant role in understanding how an ill-prepared war cabinet composed primarily of Vietnam Chickenhawks put our young soldiers at risk by overruling the advice of Pentagon generals, analysis from the CIA, and common sense in launching an ill-advised war.

Here's another example of the gap between image and reality in terms of the Bush administration and military affairs. While Karl Rove was getting the likes of Bush contributor "Clear Channel Radio" to sponsor thinly veiled -- and thinly attended -- pro-war rallies, Bush was decimating VA programs, medical services and financial support for veterans, and STILL IS to this day! The Democratic leadership should be making a daily case pointing out the betrayal of our veterans by the Bush administration!

The image of the Bush administration as a pro-military one is an illusion. This administration is a pro-military contracts for contributors administration.

In order to restore democracy to America, in order to win back the hearts and minds of Americans, the Democrats are going to have to start revealing the truth behind the Bush Cartel veil of lies.

They should start by memorializing the men who died in Vietnam because Bush and Cheney did not have the courage of their convictions to serve their nation in combat, even though they were gung-ho for other young men to die in a war they supported in word, but not in deed.

And now, young men and women are again dying again in a war that no child of Bush or Cheney or Ashcroft or Powell or Rumsfeld or Perle or Wolfowitz, etc., etc, runs the risk of dying in. Because it is not a war for the children of "privileged" rich Republicans (or democrats as well for that matter).

The men who died in Vietnam from Midland, Texas, and Casper, Wyoming, gave their lives for their beliefs, our Constitution and our freedoms. We should make sure that they didn't die in vain.

The American people supported the war in Iraq based on the deceptions, propaganda and misinformation that they have been told by the Bush administration (Iraq involvement in 9/11; Iraqis as the 9/11 hijackers; Saddam being ready to attack the U.S.; imminent threat of Iraq nuclear capability; significant links between Iraq and Al Qaeda; a quick and easy war). These claims have proven to be false and unsubstantiated!

If Americans had known the truth, more people would had been opposed to the war than supported it.

It's time for the Democratic leadership to stand up for democracy and show that the robe of the emperor is composed of cloth cut from a bolt of lies. About his "motives" today.....AND his "motives" in the past!

PS....Super----Despite our clear and obvious "differences" of opinion(s) on the political, and socio-economic conditions being 'debated"..........I have the UTMOST respect for your son(s) service and contribution to our country.............He shall be in my prayers and thoughts as well. As is ALL our sons and daughters who are now in harms way.
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  #28  
Old 02-15-2004, 04:36 PM
skeeter skeeter is offline
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Default Man! What a loss for two Towns

Gimpy;

A excellent job on the tabulations of those who died in Vietnam from George W. Bush and Dick Cheney home towns.
I suspect the two famous draft dodgers never taken the time to check who may have died for them to remain at home..
Such a loss to human kind..

I cannot believe there are so many people today that follow those two. There has to be some lack of education, poor ability to reason, sanity and anything else that leads them in the wrong direction. But Gimpy, the Republician party needs these people to get elected. Otherwiise the United States would be such a great place to live. We would have very little unemployment, or none.. Just the lazy ones not wanting to work No "trillions, and trillions dollars" in debt. No wars to fight over oil, no big corporations moving overseas..

But then we have to have these two to remind us how the poor lives, the elderly suffer, and most of all the families crying from their sons and daughters deaths for a "unjust war".
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Old 02-16-2004, 12:17 AM
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Very unseemly and tacky...even for you.I`m much dismayed.
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Old 02-16-2004, 04:06 AM
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President Bush is also shouldering the eternal moral burden of having given the command to send troops to battle.
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